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The result was delete. Courcelles 23:52, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Carlos Santana Morales (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

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Notability concerns. References are singular listings of the person and their title, in one case primary, there's essentially no secondary coverage of this engineer, and I don't believe the committees in question rise to demonstrating inherent notability themselves. Of course, additional sources, as always, are welcome. j⚛e decker^talk 23:23, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete: Per lack of ability to source it.--Milowent • ^talkblp-r 18:29, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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• Delete - Lacks coverage in reliable sources to establish notability. -- Whpq (talk) 16:53, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Courcelles 23:53, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Tribune Digital (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

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Not notable. The article Tribune Company makes a lot of claims about Tribune Digital but none of these are cited. Marcus Qwertyus 22:48, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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• Delete - I can find coverage about key appointments in this division of the Tribune company such as this, and I can find press releases. What I cannot find is significant coverage in reliable sources to establish this as a notable division within the company. The current article is largely a link repository in violation WP:DIRECTORY. There is no content worth merging. -- Whpq (talk) 17:00, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Courcelles 23:53, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Agrippa Ndongwe (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

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This page failes WP:NOTE and WP:PROMOTION --ARTEST4ECHO (^talk/_contribs) 22:40, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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• Delete - no assertion of notability. Johnbod (talk) 02:20, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Spartaz ^Humbug! 05:15, 24 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Mark McDonald (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

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Insufficiently notable person. There are a lot of claims of importance in this article (respected lawyer, founder of charities, political activist), and I don't doubt that any of it is true, but I doubt that collectively they add up to notability. The strongest claim to notability here is unsuccessfully running for Treasurer of the Labour Party, which did receive some coverage from third party sources: [1],[2],[3]. But failed political candidates aren't automatically notable, and I can't find much coverage in reliable sources apart from that. Robofish (talk) 22:12, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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• Either Redirect to Wantage (UK Parliament constituency) or Merge to Labour party proxy and undeclared donations (2007). He did get some attention by standing against the Labour Party Treasurer in 2007 following the proxy donation disaster, but that's not really notable beyond this story. The rest of the article looks like little more than a reprint of a parliamentary candidate's autobiography, which isn't what Wikipedia artiles are for. Chris Neville-Smith (talk) 13:21, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete -- Most of the article describes his education and his practice as a barrister (=NN). We then briefly hear that he failed to get elected WP:POLITICIAN makes it clear that makes him NN. I do not favour redirecting or merging, becasue this NN bio-article can reappear too easily. Peterkingiron (talk) 21:05, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. Ron Ritzman (talk) 01:03, 24 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Joey Karam (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

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No indication that this topic is notable, absolute lack of third-party coverage. — Timneu22 · talk 21:46, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep and improve through normal editing. Notability guideline WP:MUSICBIO says that a musician is assumed to be notable if a member of 2 or more notable ensembles. This person has been a member of three notable groups. The article needs better references but should not be deleted. Cullen328 (talk) 21:55, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The two bands of his aren't notable. One of them is up for CSD right now, the other one is questionable at best. If the other one is CSD'd (or AfD'd) that makes this guy easily fail MUSICBIO. — Timneu22 · talk 22:16, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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• Comment The nominator said "absolute lack of third party coverage". I see a description of his style in the Village Voice, a mention in the Rolling Stone, many other newspaper mentions of varying quality, foreign language newspaper coverage, and mention in a variety of books and magazines. As long as articles about those three bands stands, this musician should be presumed to be notable per the clear language in the guideline. Cullen328 (talk) 23:21, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• I see no such information. — Timneu22 · talk 00:03, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Before nominating due to sourcing or notability concerns, make a good-faith attempt to confirm that such sources don't exist." WP:BEFORE Francis Bond (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:59, 20 December 2010 (UTC).[reply]

• • http://www.villagevoice.com/2002-04-23/music/music/ "The Locust's songs don't have hooks in the conventional sense; even Joey Karam's keyboards provide insectoid creepiness rather than melodic definition."
  • http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/rage-singer-zack-de-la-rocha-debuts-new-band-20100719 "Throughout the show, Karam made his bank of vintage keyboards sound uncannily like a guitar, a neat inversion of Rage axman Tom Morello's trademark guitar-as-synth trick."
  • Looks like independent coverage to me. Keep --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:04, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep per SarekOfVulcan. This is case of failure to do background work before nomination. Bearian (talk) 20:20, 20 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is it? Still no refs in the article. — Timneu22 · talk 20:54, 20 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep based on sources found. Bearian (talk) 16:00, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The Asian Awards (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

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Apparent self-promotion/WP:COI by awards founder. Google news search on "The Asian Awards" shows no hits for this particular award. Some claims of notability appear to be either based on unreliable sources (primary, blogs) or misconstrued (claim of Times Square "broadcast" was driven by PR NewsWire, which essentially makes it self-published) TheRealFennShysa (talk) 21:45, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have found the following links on the web associated with The Asian Awards. Many are very notable and from credible sources. Please advise.

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1101028/jsp/sports/story_13110255.jsp http://gulfnews.com/sport/cricket/tendulkar-on-why-the-dream-chase-is-still-important-1.703747 http://www.crichotline.com/sachin-tendulkar-gets-peoples-choice-award-in-asian-awards-in-uk/ http://www.indianexpress.com/news/sachin-tendulkar-gets-lebara-peoples-choice-award/703380/ http://www.cricinfo.com/t20champions2010/content/image/483691.html?page=1&cmp=viral_image http://www.prlog.org/10990909-lord-coe-ar-rahman-sachin-tendulkar-vips-at-the-asian-awards-2010.html http://wallpapers123.blogspot.com/2010/10/sachin-tendulkar-at-asian-awards.html http://aboutsachintendulkar.blogspot.com/2010/10/sachin-honoured-at-asian-awards.html http://www.deccanherald.com/content/108029/tendulkar-gets-peoples-choice-award.html http://cricket.yahoo.com/cricket/news/article?id=item/2.0/-/story/cricket.yahoonews.com/tendulkar-gets-peoples-choice-award-asian-awards-uk-20101027/ http://cricket.ndtv.com/gallerydetails.aspx?id=8467&category=SPORTS http://www.cricbytes.com/cricket-news/sachin-tendulkar-gets-peoples-choice-award-in-asian-awards-in-uk/ http://blog.mp3hava.com/sachin-tendulkar-awarded-by-peoples-choice-award-in-asian-awards-in-uk-tendulkar-gets-peoples-choice-award-in-asian-awards-in-uk-rahman-niigaam-and-sachin-tendulkar-at-the-asian-awards-2010-b/2010 http://www.24dunia.com/english-news/cricket-news/showgroup/7871812.html http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/news/tendulkar-gets-peoples-choice-award-in-asian-awards-in-uk/172220 http://www.flashnews4u.com/2010/10/asian-awards-2010sachin-tendulkar-gotpeoples-choiceaward-in-uksee-the-list/ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/offshorefinance/8092229/Celebrities-raise-over-100000-for-Save-the-Children-at-Asian-Awards-launch.html http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/celebrities-raise-over-100-000-for-save-the-children-at-asian-awards-launch-tele-e75b35e603c7.html?x=0 http://cricket.yahoo.com/photos/Tendulkar-awarded-in-UK_12881935611881#4 http://soccernews.bigsoccer.com/article/087scFeaw46P5?q=Sachin+Tendulkar http://filminews.net/sachin-tendulkar-awarded-by-peoples-choice-award-in-asian-awards-in-uk-tendulkar-gets-peoples-choice-award-in-asian-awards-in-uk-rahman-niigaam-and-sachin-tendulkar-at-the-asian-awards-2010-f/2010 http://www.hindustantimes.com/News-Feed/corporatenews/Sunil-Mittal-bags-Philanthropist-of-the-Year-Asian-Awards/Article1-618546.aspx http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/sports/cricket/top-stories/Tendulkar-gets-Peoples-choice-Award-in-Asian-awards-in-UK/articleshow/6821962.cms http://www.bollyspice.com/view.php/5754-rahman-niigaan-and-sachin-tendulkar-at-the-asian-awards-2010.html http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/news-by-industry/et-cetera/Sunil-Mittal-bags-Philanthropist-of-the-Year-Asian-Awards/articleshow/6821939.cms http://www.bollyspice.com/view.php/5879-bollyspice-at-the-asian-awards-2010.html http://www.mobilenewscwp.co.uk/2010/10/lebara-adds-asian-awards-sponsorship/ http://www.thehindu.com/sport/cricket/article852641.ece http://www.asianimage.co.uk/sport/8478430.Tendulkar_wins_People_s_Choice_award/ http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/bollywood/news/a284556/yash-chopra-honoured-at-uk-asian-awards.html http://www.dailymirror.lk/print/index.php/business/127-local/25488.html http://www.isport.in/international/sachin-tendulkar-wins-lebara-peoples-choice-and-outstanding-achievement-in-sport-awards-at-the-1925 http://tellycafe.com/general-news/sachin-tendulkar-tendulkar-%E2%80%9Chonored%E2%80%9D-by-people%E2%80%99s-choice-award/ http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/Sachin-Tendulkar-gets-Lebara-People--s-Choice-Award/703380/ http://www.india-cricket-live.com/india-cricket-live-tv-video-telecast-webcast/3018 http://www.indiainfoline.com/Markets/News/Sunil-Bharti-Mittal-named-Philanthropist-of-the-Year/4976930035 http://www.siliconindia.com/shownews/Sunil_Mittal_selected_the_Philanthropist_of_the_Year-nid-73228-cid-1.html http://www.bollyspice.com/view.php/5837-more-on-the-asian-awards.html http://www.bollyspice.com/view.php/5814-amitabh-bachchan-on-his-lifetime-achievement-award-at-uk-the-asian-awards.html http://media247.co.uk/bizasia/newsarchive/2010/10/interview_with_2.php http://www.eventmagazine.co.uk/News/MostEmailed/1035599/Lord-Coe-present-Asian-Awards-2010/ http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/the-greatest-gathering-of-asian-excellenceever---amitabh-bachchan-actor-105158489.html http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/sports/cricket/top-stories/My-age-doesnt-worry-me-Tendulkar/articleshow/6823660.cms http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshowpics/6826667.cms http://photogallery.indiatimes.com/articleshow/6822926.cms http://www.espnstar.com/home/news/detail/item521690/Tendulkar-bags-UK-award/ http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/lloyds-banking-group-honours-international-asian-icons-105158474.html http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard-sport/cricket/article-23891876-kevin-pietersens-slump-is-all-in-the-mind-says-sachin-tendulkar.do http://www.thehindu.com/sport/cricket/article852641.ece http://www.thehindu.com/life-and-style/society/article852580.ece http://www.asianimage.co.uk/news/8478514.__100_000_raised_for_charity_at_Asian_Awards/ http://www.imdb.com/news/ni5174921/ http://www.eventmagazine.co.uk/news/rss/1035599/Lord-Coe-present-Asian-Awards-2010/ http://www.ndtv.com/news/videos/video_player.php?page=4&id=172220 http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/slideshow/photo//101026/482/urn_publicid_ap_org315f0894ffad4e0ea9d3017cad6063e2/ <http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/slideshow/photo/101026/482/urn_publicid_ap_org315f0894ffad4e0ea9d3017cad6063e2/> http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/Sachin-Tendulkar-gets-Lebara-People--s-Choice-Award/703380 http://www.punjab2000.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2461&Itemid=2 http://media247.co.uk/bizasia/newsarchive/2010/10/interview_with_2.php http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard-sport/cricket/article-23891876-kevin-pietersens-slump-is-all-in-the-mind-says-sachin-tendulkar.do http://www.bollyspice.com/view.php/5859-yash-chopra-to-attend-the-asian-awards.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sikhdirector (talk • contribs) 22:05, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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• Keep per the sources linked above. This takes the prize as the best refutation of a deletion rationale that I have ever seen. I don't have any advice for the editor who asked for it, other than to continue basing discussion on reliable sources. My unsolicited advice to the nominator is to withdraw. Phil Bridger (talk) 23:06, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was redirect to Eminem#Acting_career. Ron Ritzman (talk) 01:05, 24 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Southpaw (film) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

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Speculative film project; severely fails WP:CRYSTAL. Apparently, it hasn't even been written yet; according to this source, somebody "is set to begin writing immediately and will reportedly turn in a draft in February. No word on a possible release date or when production may begin." Contested PROD.  Glenfarclas  (talk) 21:26, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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• Redirect /Merge of any sourced information to Eminem#Acting career where this is already mentioned. Per WP:TOSOON this topic does not yet have enough coverage to merit being an exception to WP:NFF and so is not ready to be an independent article. And as WP:CBALL does specifically allow discussion of future projects if sourced, we can simply redirect to where this where it is already mentioned. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 23:11, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• No, no, no; delete as way TOOSOON, and there's nothing to merge. There's supposed to be a film some day, yes, but there isn't one yet. First draft not even due until Feb. 2011, then everybody has to like it, or wait for rewrites, then casting, etc., all before any actual filming takes place. Nothing to see here. — JohnFromPinckney (talk) 23:41, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The redirect/merge will delete the article from mainspace... and as as it is ALREADY mentioned in Eminem#Acting career, a redirect will simply send readers to the one place within these pages where it has a contextual mention. And yes, once the film is scheduled and cast and begins filming and gets coverage... then we might consider an article. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 01:18, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

^What do you mean consider? Pfft. Then there WILL be an article, but I guess for now it should be deleted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.93.184.144 (talk) 11:33, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete per WP:TOOSOON and WP:NFF. BOVINEBOY2008 11:56, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Courcelles 00:33, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Gateway Center (Wenatchee) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

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From what I can discern, this is a dime-a-dozen strip mall. I would also like to point out that other articles that are on the disambiguation page Gateway Center are all notable for different reasons, and none of them are actually strip malls, but rather building(s) with significance. Jrcla2 (talk) 21:01, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete - I'm just not finding anything even close to significant in terms of coverage or passing even the most liberal interpretation of WP:N.--Oakshade (talk) 21:25, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per oakshade. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • ^{(Otters want attention)} 22:08, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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• Delete - No notability at all. Dough4872 17:03, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete fails to meet WP:GNG Admrboltz (talk) 17:39, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete: Per [4] this is only a strip mall.--Milowent • ^talkblp-r 18:41, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Did some cleanup and found a few sources, but only about the new 14-screen theater moving in to where the Big K-mart used to be, not the complex itself. Fails to cross the notability threshold. - Dravecky (talk) 23:37, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Redirect to Wenatchee, Washington. Also, this has nothing to do with transportation, so there's no reason it should get an AfD transportation tag. ----DanTD (talk) 06:44, 20 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • This tag also applies to places, which this is. Dough4872 04:34, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. Courcelles 23:53, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

David Rubinstein (social historian) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

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Not finding any coverage out there for this historian. Gigs (talk) 19:57, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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• Comment Keep. This nominator, as usual, has not looked very hard. On Google Scholar I find publications in the area of social history for "David Rubinstein" of 59, 48, 33, 31, 30, 26, 22, 22, 20, 20, 18...... Comments from scholars in the area would be helpful, Xxanthippe (talk) 23:12, 16 December 2010 (UTC).[reply]
  • Papers that the subject wrote are not coverage of the subject. Gigs (talk) 23:14, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • It's not the papers that he wrote, but the citations to those papers, i.e. other people recognising his contribution to his field. Phil Bridger (talk) 23:20, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Recognition is not coverage either. We can't write an article based on recognition. Gigs (talk) 01:35, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep: To my mind this is a clear keep - a well published social historian - formerly a full time academic. I think he used to be head of dept in Hull. His books (google books helps) seem enough evidence of notability and I think authors and academics may be notable via their work. (20:46, 17 December 2010 (UTC))(Msrasnw (talk) 20:52, 17 December 2010 (UTC))[reply]
• Keep This guy has written some 20 books including some very important ones - see e.g. these on education [5] He is still producing (in his 80s!) - e.g. on Quakers and the 1st World War in this month's Quaker History Journal Aa42john (talk) 11:43, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. Courcelles 00:33, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Emaniel Djibril Dankawa (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

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Run of the mill player for a national team that has never even qualified for the world cup. Gigs (talk) 19:47, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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• Keep - I think someone who has played in four FIFA World Cup qualifiers is probably notable. He's apparently quite young (played for Niger's U-20 squad last year), but has already played internationally. I'm struggling to find much online press, but that's to be expected for someone who gained notability in West Africa. Jogurney (talk) 04:21, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • According to the article, those 4 games were the only games he ever played professionally. That's not very much if that's all there is, but as you point out, the lack of sourcing is an issue, so there may be more. Gigs (talk) 22:05, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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• Keep - has played at international level, clearly notable footballer. GiantSnowman 22:40, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - As a Nigerien international, he is quite clearly notable. Sir Sputnik (talk) 22:55, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. Playing for the national team of a country of 15 million is about as far from "run of the mill" as you can get.Phil Bridger (talk) 23:24, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - meets WP:GNG as full international Zanoni (talk) 09:25, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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• Keep per the above, though sourcing is (and will likely continue to be) an issue. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 21:15, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. Ron Ritzman (talk) 01:08, 24 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Bible study (Christian) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

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This was nominated before, and the consensus was to keep based on the notability of the concept. But the concept exists in the cell group article - I split off the material about group Bible study there, and the material about personal Bible study to the Quiet Time article. Hence, this can be deleted, or become a disambiguation page. StAnselm (talk) 19:12, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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• Comment - I've added cell group and quiet time to the related articles section on the dab page Bible study. --GraemeL ^(talk) 19:23, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Weak keep - based on notable distinction between "bible study" and "cell group" (but unfortunately not based on quality of article). I guess it depends on the contexts one is familiar with, but IMHO Bible study is actually a more familiar term to many than cell group, and it covers a large, but different, umbrella of meaning. It seems from the article that cell groups imply a level of organization that Bible studies do not necessarily employ; i.e. there is a coordinated effort on the part of the church to organize their members into these groups. The cell group's article's opening statement: "The cell group is a form of church organization that is used in some Christian churches." Bible studies are not (necessarily) used to organize a church, they can be quite informal (may not even have a leader), may be intended as a form of outreach ("evangelistic bible studies"), may not be church sponsored (e.g. para-church ministries) and the participants may not all be Christians. Based on the cell group article (but I cannot vouch for it), it says cell group participants are all Christians and are a method of church organization, so they seem like distinct concepts and I do support a keep based on that, but weak, because after the split-off and merger activity it would need to be developed and supported with sources, and right now there isn't much to the article. -- Joren (talk) 20:16, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes, I use the phrase "Bible study" myself, but I don't think the distinction is a notable one - indeed, people often rename it and then say "Cool name group isn't a traditional Bible study group." But anyway, the major source I've added into the cell group article (Hunsicker) refers to "small groups" in the article title, and then starts by saying The “cell” concept in church structure is becoming prominent. So we have a fair bit of interchangeability. I added the comment about para-church ministries, and also included a picture of a (presumably) non-denominational Bible study on board a ship. StAnselm (talk) 20:39, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • I think the main problem I have is just that - the cell concept is about church structure. The bible study may or may not be, but the cell group definitely is (at least that's what the article said). I'm not sure it can be solved by trying to expand the definition of cell group to include all bible studies. Which raises another issue, where do our definitions come from? Right now, the cell group article's sources don't even seem to be using the term - they all say "small group" or something like that. Our definitions needs to be supported by and reflect sources that explicitly say what the term "cell group" means (this is also a deficiency in the Bible study article as well).

-- Joren (talk) 20:57, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Because of this cut, this paste, and this paste, the project's copyright licences require keep irrespective of other concerns. If you are going to nominate content and its accompanying edit history for deletion, don't use that content. Uncle G (talk) 20:27, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • It would be possible to fix that problem with a history merge. --GraemeL ^(talk) 20:32, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • No it wouldn't. One cannot history merge one edit history into two others. Uncle G (talk) 20:39, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • My initial plan in editing was to redirect, but that got reverted. StAnselm (talk) 20:42, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Your next stop thereafter should have been the article's own talk page not AFD. Uncle G (talk) 20:47, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Not for a redirect, surely. If we're discussing whether to replace the content with a redirect, then we're discussing deletion. And that belongs here. StAnselm (talk) 20:54, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Yes, for a redirect. You have an erroneous idea of what deletion is. Redirects are not deletion. A redirect is not enacted with the deletion tool. It is enacted with the edit tool. You should know this, you enacted one with the edit tool yourself. Don't come to Articles for deletion unless an administrator, using the deletion tool to erase all content and all edit history — meaning that you cannot copy that content in other articles without violating the terms of the copyright licences —, is what you actually want. You should not have brought this here merely to discuss a difference with another editor that involved no more than the two of you using the edit tool to enact and undo a redirect. Deletion is not involved, deletion is not what you enacted (You don't even have the deletion tool, either of you.), and deletion is not what you want or what you may, in accordance with the terms of the copyright licence after what you've copied and pasted, have. Uncle G (talk) 02:59, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep Far more churches have "Bible study" than have something like the "cell groups." "Cell group" and "Quiet time" as used in those articles are not a term used in most mainstream Christian denominations. The nomination seems to ignore all of Christianity but one movement in its belief that there is no notability to "Bible study" other than the way they approach it. "Bible study" is a notable topic by itself, without even considering some specially formulated version of it used in some evangelical megachurch. There was Bible study and Bible study groups long before Hunsicker. Bible study was done in parochial schools, and as a regular Sunday activity at the church in many denominations. Google book search shows over 27000 results for "Bible study" published between 1900 and 1899. Many of these describe systematic multi-year approaches to conducting Bible study in churches or outside churches, or in schools, and are not at all part of someone's recent trendy system for increasing small-group interpersonal contact in megachurches. I use the 19th century results just to show the topic's broader and earlier coverage. A search for "Bible study" less results with "cell" or "Hunsicker" and with no timespan limit produces 191,000\ book results. Edison (talk) 21:06, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Indeed, the whole point of the Hunsicker article is that small groups go back to Pietism and Methodism. The cell group article is much broader than megachurch cell groups - if you can think of a better article name for either this or the Quiet Time article, then go for it. StAnselm (talk) 21:14, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • It is fine to have articles on "Cell groups" and on "Quiet time," but "Bible study" is not limited to these forms of Bible study. Those are subtopics, but keep Bible study as the general topic. It has its own history: widespread study of the Bible was not always encouraged by the Church, since it might lead to novel insights and "heresy." So it has a history, and scads of references. What is the necessity of deleting it and pretending that there is not and never was any form of Bible study but the "Cell group" or "Quiet time?" Edison (talk) 21:21, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • But if Bible study is the general topic, what about Bible study (Christian)? StAnselm (talk) 21:36, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • I intended to link to Bible study (Christian), a silly distinction, as if millions of Jews, Hindus, Zoroastrians and pagans sit around studying the "Bible," when that is understood to be both the Old and New Testaments, with perhaps the apocrypha. I apologize if Jews also use the term "Bible" to describe the Tanakh or their scriptures, but I have not heard or read that as a common usage on their part. I have understood Christians to be the main participants in what is called "Bible study". Edison (talk) 05:51, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep Given that Bible study is a disambiguation page, this page needs to be kept. There's nothing NN about an activity that millions of people worldwide engage in weekly or more frequently. Jclemens (talk) 22:57, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Courcelles 23:53, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sajuuk (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

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Non-notable video game entity Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry (talk) 19:02, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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• Delete A holdover from the days where Wikipedia was heavy on fiction and light on real-life. This appears to have been written by people who were playing the computer game Homeworld and its sequels, and has no real-world significance, nor anything outside the original research of making observations and speculations on a game. In addition, this is covered in Homeworld 2#Sajuuk. Mandsford 19:25, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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• Delete or redirect to Homeworld. Minor fictional entity, no hope of passing WP:N. Marasmusine (talk) 14:48, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. Bearian (talk) 16:10, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Seven Summers (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

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Non-notable band, fails WP:MUSICBIO. Only connection is to the notable lead singer, Matt Cardle, but the band are not signed to any record label. AnemoneProjectors 18:38, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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• Delete per Anemone's points. Sources are poor and most seem to hinge on Matt Cardle. Brammers (talk/c) 12:28, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep I think this perhaps now meets WP:MUSICBIO now the album has charted in the top 30 of The Official Charts Company download chart (here) and number 15 in the indie chart here, just below the Prodigy. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:14, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. Sources are official. Statements are correct. Band has 2 notable members. Band has charted in Official UK charts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sevensummersband (talk • contribs) 10:17, 21 December 2010 (UTC) — Sevensummersband (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
• Keep per The Rambling Man and charting which should meet the notability guideline. Davewild (talk) 12:03, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. One two three... 10:39, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A Second War (novel) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

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Unfinished book by author of unclear notability. Contested prod. ... discospinster _talk 18:30, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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• Delete Sorry, Gil, Wikipedia isn't the place to publish a novel. It appears that you've got a great future ahead of you, and we encourage you to keep writing. However, I hope also that you can envision the problems that would come about if everyone used Wikipedia to display their own works of fiction. Essentially, Wikipedia is a place for people to write about what has been learned from what has already been published. Mandsford 19:34, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Clear delete' 20:26, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
• Delete per Mandsford. Clarityfiend (talk) 22:29, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Ron Ritzman (talk) 01:10, 24 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Mac DVDRipper Pro (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

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The article appears to fail to meet WP:NSOFT. Searching Google News, I can only find press releases and the normal selection of product reviews that would apply to almost every software product and nothing to establish long term impact on the historic record such as international awards. Fæ (talk) 18:20, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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I've added some points on the discussion page of Mac DVDRipper Pro --maknak — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maknak (talk • contribs) 18:33, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Note Article creator is a probable SPA: Macdvd (talk · contribs). (Apparently now using the account Maknak (talk · contribs)) OSborn^arf_{contributionatoration} 18:36, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • If you have evidence then please use the normal WP:SPI process rather than making speculative claims in an AfD. Thanks, Fæ (talk) 19:06, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete WP:NSOFT notes that:

  Software that is just another entry in a crowded field will need more persuasively significant sources, of a kind that indicate that it stands out from the crowd.

  The review provided by the author (whose curiously COI user-name should give us all pause) indicates that this product not only is not outstanding in its field, but compares rather poorly to its competition. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 18:41, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. Typical Wikipedia spam. An article most likely created by the product author (see above), who, immediately after creating his single-purpose account, advertises it in other Wikipedia articles, too (see his contributions). I can't see significant coverage in reputable sources, either in Google results, books (zero results) or elsewhere, which is a requirement in the general notability guideline (the article mentions two reviews at Macworld.com, but that's not something I would call "significant coverage"). And the more specific product notability guideline says that products generally should not have their own articles unless they are really notable (or not created by companies). And even though the software notability essay is not an official Wikipedia guideline, it says it "may be consulted for assistance during an AfD discussion". It also says that "the mere existence of reviews does not mean the software is notable. Reviews must be significant" and/or from multiple printed sources, or "The software is discussed in reliable sources as significant in its particular field". Which is not the case here.—J. M. (talk) 19:01, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Yes, I do help maintain Mac DVDRipper Pro. While I did not know about all the rules for account names, I changed name to follow the rules the best I can. I do intend to add entries for other softwares I do help maintain. This is the first time I try editing Wikipedia and I'm eager to follow rules and learn them.
• Mac DVDRipper Pro is the main competitor to RipIt (MacTheRipper being another one, but not only it has legal issues, the easily available version is quite outdated, and the last version is quite difficult to obtain - if obtainable at all - see user comments. HandBrake is not the same (it converts, does not make identical backups).
• Download counters on both Mac DVDRipper Pro's macupdate page and RipIt's macupdate page are of similar levels and show the competition.
• Software that is just another entry in a crowded field [...] as written, Mac DVDRipper Pro is currently the only serious contestant to RipIt, which does not feature Movie only rips.
• Just like RipIt, it should be part of WikiProject Computing, Software and Macintosh
• Mac DVDRipper Pro was part of MUPromo's spring bundle and as such is registered by tens of thousands of people - that's a lot more active users than many softwares on Wikipedia which are not listed for deletion.
• As for "compar[ing] rather poorly", this is a bit strongly worded: Mac DVDRipper Pro is still quite less expensive and is found by many of its users to be excellent at what it does for a decent price, see user comments
• If I had know that editing other pages to link back to Mac DVDRipper Pro would be constructed as something negative, I would have refrained from doing so until the page could be reviewed.

Maknak (talk) 19:20, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Also, Mac DVDRipper Pro has the ability to burn a copy, which further distinguish it from other DVD Rippers: no other known dvd ripper on the mac has that ability

Maknak (talk) 19:33, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Courcelles 00:32, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Robert Aubie (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

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Unverified BLP. Article's content does not really substantiate notability and the lack thereof is indicated by Google searches. PinkBull 18:17, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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• Delete, not notable by any standard. As best I can tell, this is not actually a second deletion discussion -- there was no previous discussion that led to a decision to keep (or even "no consensus"). Nomoskedasticity (talk) 19:35, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Unable to find any significant coverage of the subject, the award he won doesn't seem to be a particularly notable one, as it's given several teachers in his district in one year [6]. Ray^Talk 23:05, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. Teachers at the secondary level are not notable per se and there's nothing beyond this that would qualify as notable. Agricola44 (talk) 16:55, 17 December 2010 (UTC).[reply]
• Delete per lack of notability. Erik (talk | contribs) 17:25, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - This article would seem to confirm he won the award along with a bunch of other teachers. However, there is no coverage about him in reliable sources to establish him as notable. -- Whpq (talk) 17:13, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Courcelles 23:55, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

International contemporary art scenes (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

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A list of 6 articles, 4 of which are redlinks. Unsourced and largely untouched since 2006. I'm not sure if this is trying to be a list or an article, but it doesn't seem to be necessary. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 17:40, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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• Delete Evidently, this was intended as a disambiguation page of some sort when it was created in 2006, linking to articles about the contemporary art in different nations. No reason for it to be kept. Mandsford 19:36, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per nom...Modernist (talk) 23:09, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - not all dab pages are always needed. Bearian (talk) 16:07, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Not the place for this discussion Jclemens-public (talk) 19:29, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Sandbox (edit | [[Talk:Wikipedia:Sandbox|talk]] | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

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The sandbox is a page that has no clear intention, rather than new users posting at times libelous, offensive material and other kinds of vandalism. People should use their user page for experimenting, and removal of the sandbox will decrease vandalism acts, if users are urged to carry out editing tests on their own user page. MikeNicho231 (talk) 16:55, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. Sandbox is often used for test edits by IPs who don't even know how to find their user talk page. The Sandbox is a good place for them to learn the basics. Yes, there is quite a bit of vandalism that does occur there, but it is better to channel such vandalism towards a project-space page, than to have it sprawl over the mainspace. Nsk92 (talk) 17:16, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong keep - it is a place for people who are just trying to start to test out what they want to do. Giving them a place to "play" helps keep them from doing things to articles until they are ready. Yes, they can use their user space as well, but I see no compelling reason to take away this space. LadyofShalott 17:23, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep and speedy close. First off, pages in the Wikipedia namespace belong at WP:MFD, not here. Secondly, to echo MuZemike's closing comment from the last AfD, sensitive/libelous material can be removed by oversight or RevDel. —KuyaBriBri^Talk 17:56, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Courcelles 23:56, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The Real Alice in Wonderland (book) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

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Book seems to fail the criteria in WP:NBOOK. I removed a lot of links from the article that were simply to Youtube, blogs, aggregators, etc. and what I ended up with were 2 articles in minor local papers. A Google search mostly brings up discussion topics related to Alice in Wonderland or Alice Liddell, or pieces written by the authors themselves (primary sources) and I can't really find any significant number of reliable, third-party sources covering this specific book. As far as I can tell it has also never won any major literary awards, it has not made a significant contribution to a major motion picture or other art form or religious movement, and the author herself is not uniquely significant. Finally, the article appears to have been originally created by someone with a COI, who has created a number of other abusive sockpuppets to edit war and make legal threats at Harry M. Rubin, as well as creating the article about this book's author. - Burpelson AFB ✈ 14:29, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete for lack of notability and excessive COI involvement. 67.117.130.143 (talk) 19:16, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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• Delete It's an AuthorHouse book, print-on-demand. There's nothing wrong with self-published or vanity press books, but Wikipedia is not the place to bring them to the public's attention. Mandsford 19:42, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was speedy deleted -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 13:32, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Qasim Hafeez Ullah (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

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Autobiography (presumably) of a young chap who likes writing stories. No evidence of notability at all. Note that he has also created a range of articles on his works, all of which are also up for AfD -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 12:40, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Pretty obvious vanity article with no attempt to establish notability. --Quartermaster (talk) 13:16, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Userification happily done on request. Courcelles 23:57, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Jihad Kandahar (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

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Fails WP:N. No reliable independent sources discuss this "Jihad Kandahar" organisation, only primary sources. The unnamed unit is mentioned once, on the Guantanamo Inmate Database (linked in the article). This is az bare mention, not any significant info. No other sources could be found through Google Books or News Archive. Fram (talk) 12:16, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• It's not just non-notable--a stronger case for deletion is that the article makes serious allegations about living people (specifically, that they're members of a terrorist organisation) based only on primary sources.

  Fram is correct to say this isn't notable, but the primary sources mean it is verifiable. Because it's verifiable it shouldn't be entirely removed from Wikipedia, but because it's not notable, it shouldn't have its own article. A merge or redirect are the only outcomes that would be fully in accordance with our policies and guidelines. I'm normally vocally opposed to "delete then redirect" as an outcome but in this case the BLP issue means that deletion prior to redirecting is a sensible precaution. Delete, then create redirect to Taliban which should contain a footnote or one-line mention of this organisation's alleged existence. Closer to consider protecting the redirect, because I'm anxious to ensure that living people are not named as members of this organisation without excellent sources.—S Marshall T/C 12:32, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • You are quite incorrect in your interpretation of our policies. Plenty of things that are perfectly verifiable will never need a merge or a redirect, but just don't belong on Wikipedia. being verifiable doesn't entitle anything to have a redirect here. This doesn't mean that your suggestion that in this case, a redirect to Taliban would be the best solution is necessarily incorrect (I believe it would violate WP:UNDUE, but that's just my opinion). But the reason why you propose this and oppose a deletion is incorrect. Fram (talk) 12:41, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • I didn't actually oppose a deletion. It says "delete" in bold up there, just before my signature. It's just that my "delete" is based on BLP and not notability, and is contingent on creating a redirect.

      My interpretation of Wikipedia policies is that users don't get to remove sourced information from the encyclopaedia on notability grounds alone, which I think is an uncontroversial reading of WP:PRESERVE; I believe it's the opposite view that's a misinterpretation of policy.—S Marshall T/C 12:55, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

      • PRESERVE presents considerations, not hard rules. And note that PRESERVE actually includes "WP:UNDUE discusses how to balance material that gives undue weight to a particular viewpoint, which might include removal." Combined with WP:V: "If no reliable third-party sources can be found on a topic, Wikipedia should not have an article on it.", it becomes quite clear that there may well be information that is verifiable but should still not be on Wikipedia at all. "Preserve appropriate content." "Do not remove good information"... what is appropriate or good content is not decided by PRESERVE, and it doesn't claim that all verifiable information is good, appropriate information. The white pages are verifiable, but we wouldn't try to preserve info taken from them (e.g. a list of families in county X who had a telephone in 1947 may be perfectly verifiable, but wouldn't need an article, redirect, merge, ...). Fram (talk) 13:18, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Apart from the five pillars there aren't hard rules at all. But there are soft rules we're supposed to consider and the fact that WP:PRESERVE presents considerations for editorial judgment rather than hard rules doesn't mean editors get to disregard it; WP:PRESERVE is policy (and notability is not). I don't agree that "...Wikipedia should not have an article on it" means "should not be on Wikipedia at all". That's not what it says and it strikes me as an extremist reading of a more moderate policy. To my mind, "should not have an article on it" means what it says: a separate article is inappropriate.

          The white pages (which I presume is an American institution of some kind) is, like so many analogies, a bit of a straw man. I didn't say "let's include material from the white pages". I said "let's create a redirect to a one-line mention of a terrorist organisation linked to the Taliban".—S Marshall T/C 13:54, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete, only a few brief mentions in primary sources, far from satisfying WP:GNG. Nsk92 (talk) 13:20, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete not a notable organisation. Not even verifiable (no secondary sources, no relibable sources independent of the subject), so a redirect is not appropriate--Pontificalibus (talk) 14:19, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per nom and Pontificalibus. IQinn (talk) 14:36, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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• Delete: When the word "alleged" appears repeatedly, the big red WP:BLP flag goes up. Given that almost all sources are from the entity that wants to prosecute them, even I can't deem them reliable. The one thir-party source doesn't even verify anything, in fact, it hinders the claim to verifibility. On top of that, the lack of adequete referencing has me doubting that this unit exists at all, much less is notable. bahamut0013^words_deeds 23:18, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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• Delete per nom. WP:N isn't met, and there are serious BLP issues with this. Nick-D (talk) 23:01, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• A request -- I request a relisting, rather than closure, as the sheer volume of recent ((xfd)) has left me without enough time to respond to this one. Geo Swan (talk) 12:36, 20 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - also lacks significant independent coverage in reliable sources and therefore fails on notability per WP:MILMOS/N. Anotherclown (talk) 12:17, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Courcelles 00:29, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Daftar al-Taliban (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

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Fails WP:N; Prodded right after creation, but contested. Tagged for notability for over a year now. Mentioned in some primary sources, but no reliable independent sources about this are available at all (Google Books and News archive return nothing, regular Google has 93 distinct results[7], mostly Wikipedia and its mirrors. Fram (talk) 11:48, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete, only a few brief mentions in primary sources, no example of in-depth coverage. Clearly fails WP:GNG. Nsk92 (talk) 13:22, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Not a notable house, the only sources are allegations, so these are not reliable.--Pontificalibus (talk) 14:27, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per Pontificalibus, not notable. DARTH SIDIOUS 2 ^(Contact) 16:09, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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• Delete - per nomination. Anotherclown (talk) 11:59, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was speedy delete (A7) by Rodhullandemu. Non-admin closure --Pgallert (talk) 07:24, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Damien Hancox (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

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Does not appear to satisfy WP:N or WP:ATHLETE. References do not mention the subject once. Catfish Jim & the soapdish 11:41, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. -- Cirt (talk) 05:38, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Strategies to promote identification (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

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Reads like a personal essay, not quite sure what this 'article' is all about. E. Fokker (talk) 19:50, 9 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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I recommend editing the linguistic style and developing the content of the article. More importantly, I recommend merging this article's content with (i.e., into) the entry on organizational identification. The content of this entry represents a significant theoretical area of organizational communication studies. In the interest of full disclosure: I am a professor associated with the individuals who authored this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Brendenkendall (talk • contribs) 15:48, 10 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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• Delete I agree that some of this should be incorporated into the article organizational identification, in a much shorter form. Short verison is that one gets persons to identify with an organization through (1) Expression of concern for the individual; (2) Recognition of individual contributions; (3) Espousal of shared values; (4) Advocacy of benefits and activities; (5) Praise by outsiders; and (6) Testimonials by employees; then enhances the "us" with an "us vs. them" approach. This is an oversimplification, of course, but the current version misses the point of an encyclopedia article, which is to help other persons understand what's being referred to. Mandsford 19:54, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. -- Cirt (talk) 05:38, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

British School of Chicago (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

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Contested prod. Article is about a school, but does not demonstrate any coverage in independent reliable sources. The only sources I could find were press releases and yellow-page listings. TNXMan 19:35, 9 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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• Keep Previous consensus has been that high schools are inherently notable. Edward321 (talk) 13:09, 10 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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• Keep per the usual outcome described in Wikipedia:OUTCOMES#Education. While there is no policy that says that high schools are inherently notable, the consensus for years has been that a high school is notable enough for its own stand alone article. In this case, the school teaches a curriculum and grants diplomas that meet standards in the United Kingdom. As with "British schools" in any foreign nation, the students are usually from British families who are temporarily living in the United States, in this case, in Chicago. Mandsford 20:02, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was redirected to Cell group per nominator suggestion. Non-admin closure. —KuyaBriBri^Talk 17:42, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Huddles (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

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This article is mostly original research, and the notability is marginal. I have added a paragraph about huddles to cell group - I suggest this article be redirected there. StAnselm (talk) 08:48, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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Redirect to cell group, reason given above. --Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 14:03, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Courcelles 23:58, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Rahmatullah (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

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Fails WP:BIO. There are quite a few Rahmatullahs associated with the Taliban, Guantanamo, Afghanistan, ..., making it hard to search for this one (e.g. Rahmatullah Sangaryar, see also Rahmatullah (disambiguation)). The article provides no reliable independent sourcse about him, only government documents and reprints of those, which are not independent since the government is the one detaining him. Searching for more info did not return any reliable independent sources. Fram (talk) 08:38, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete Not a notable person. Also serious WP:BLP issues as there are no third-party reliable sources.--Pontificalibus (talk) 14:25, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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• Delete - only claim to notability is that the subject was a detainee at Guantanamo Bay, however the subject of this article lacks significant independent coverage in reliable sources and therefore fails the MILHIST notability guidelines in WP:MILMOS/N as well as WP:BIO per the nomination. Anotherclown (talk) 08:50, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was redirect to 2010 Panama City school board shootings. At first glance it seems clear that the consensus is to delete this article. However, most of the content has already been merged into 2010 Panama City school board shootings so the history of this article needs to be kept. Ron Ritzman (talk) 01:18, 24 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Clay Duke (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

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Non-notable person ... classic one event. ^Bongo_matic 08:13, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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• Delete. Had his 15 minutes of infamy, dismiss as WP:NOTNEWS and WP:PERPETRATOR. WWGB (talk) 12:03, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. It is just as notable as the columbine shooting or any other workplace/school shooting in recent decades. Vandersontx (talk —Preceding undated comment added 13:03, 16 December 2010 (UTC). Vandersontx (talk) 11:54, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Please provide a source stating this. He didn't manage to shoot one person except himself, unlike the Columbine or VT massacres. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 17:13, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• So what? Does Wikipedia decide what is or is not worthy based on the numerical body count? Ashershow1 (talk) 20:43, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• No, but the lack of a source stating that it was as notable as Columbine and the fact that there was only one fatality here (while many fatalities happens less often) means your claim is baseless. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 23:47, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep The number of fatalities is not the issue here. The issue is this man's motive for doing something like this. Walking in on a school board meeting and killing people is not something that happens every day, or even every year. If things had gone differently, 6 people may have died making this man undoubtedly notable. Wikipedia is not to set a precedent that the more people you kill the more notable you become. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ashershow1 (talk • contribs) 21:55, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• There's such a thing as a source stating that a body count matters in the notability of an event? Fair enough. Going_postal#Baker_City.2C_Oregon.2C_in_2006. One person killed. A notable event included on Wikipedia. This also at the very least qualifies as a high profile Suicide_by_cop. Vandersontx (talk) 12:34, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Not that it is particularly relevant or would make Duke any more notable but Suicide by cop means a person acts in such a manner as to try to ensure that a policeman fatally shoots that person. Duke shot himself! It was one of the schoolboard members whom Duke later shot at who suggested that Duke was looking to get killed by the cops; Duke made a reply which I couldn't hear clearly enough to decipher, but that's not the same thing. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 19:39, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not going to sit here and argue what does or does not constitute a suicide by cop since it would sidetrack this debate, but it does not necessarily have to be a death by the police. Duke, made several statements indicating he intended to have the police kill him and did not kill himself until he was struck by returned fire. Vandersontx (talk) 11:52, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. Clay Duke walked in on a school board meeting, tried to shoot six people, and then shot himself in the head. Since when is that not Wikipedia-worthy? Duke was a front page news item, and if things had gone slightly differently, 6 men could have died. Does Wikipedia then delete pages of people who's body count was not as high as say Seung-Hui Cho? The Clay Duke incident brings up issues of gun control, security, and the sales tax among others. This article once expanded would be a worthy addition to Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ashershow1 (talk • contribs) 13:10, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You don't get to vote twice. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 19:39, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Please read WP:BIO1E and WP:NOTNEWS. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 17:13, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete per Wikipedia:Notability_(people)#People_notable_for_only_one_event and WP:PERP. In the case of Seung-Hui Cho the single event brought about worldwide coverage, lengthy discussion about mental illness and gun rights, and revamps of security procedures on university campuses, etc. This guy was a rambling nut whose rambles don't merit repeating on Wikipedia. He didn't manage to hurt anybody and will be forgotten next week. -IceCreamAntisocial (talk) 13:51, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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• Delete - Wikipedia is not the local newspaper, and subject does not appear to satisfy WP:PERP. LadyofShalott 15:35, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. The case is noteworthy, even if for his missing six people at point blank range. While shooting himself dead shows he meant business. Adds to one's understanding of quirkiness of human nature.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.14.40.34 (talk) 15:53, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• None of those are a valid rationale for including this article in Wikipedia. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 17:13, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

To the unregistered user who didn't sign his/her opinion: there is nothing "quirky" about a misbegotten ex-con with easy access to a gun and ammo, and nothing notable about him in life or in death except for his cowardice. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 17:54, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete - this is yet another copycat rampage with a gun it is not notable for anything other than it failed. By associating this refrence tool with mayhem we grant it notability it is not notableMasterknighted (talk) 16:13, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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• Delete, WP:BIO1E and WP:NOTNEWS. Clear-cut case; he didn't even kill anyone. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 17:10, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. "He didn't even kill anyone", not true he killed himself. Besides, since when does Wikipedia judge notability based on the body count?— Preceding unsigned comment added by Ashershow1 (talk • contribs)

NOTE: This is either an unsigned !vote or apparently User:Ashershow1's third vote (albeit unsigned) on which the following two comments are based: Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 16:10, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Committing suicide when the cops are closing in doesn't earn you a Wikipedia article. It's how you live your life that determines notability. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 16:01, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Other than himself, I meant, which I'm sure you understood. It's a lot more rare that multiple people are killed than just a suicide. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 22:30, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete: WP:NOTNEWS and WP:PERPETRATOR (as above). There is no comparison to Columbine as another editor mistakenly pronounced above. Nothing encyclopaedic or worthy of posthumous attention about this cowardly thug. He was not and is not notable. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 17:44, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete The "Just as notable" arguments are nothing short of laughable. Grsz 11 18:29, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete -While the news item itself is worthy of being documented on Wikipedia, the man who caused it does not deserve his own entry. He should certainly be mentioned in an article about the event, but this is the only thing he's ever done to gain notoriety. His name will be forgotten pretty quickly, even though people will remember the bizarre and unfortunate event. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.173.80.45 (talk) 18:53, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. Not noteworthy enough for permanent keep. This is News at best, not of encyclopaedic value. --tom (talk) 19:19, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. No notability except for the crime perpetuated, Dismissal according to WP:NOTNEWS and WP:PERPETRATOR. DrachenFyre > YOU! (talk) 20:57, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Seung-Hui Cho was not notable except for the crime he perpetuated. Yet he has a Wikipedia page. This is because Clay Duke goes beyond "the crime perpetuated," he raises issues of gun control, security, and others. Clay Duke is as notable as the Columbine murders, or the Virginia Tech shooter. Ashershow1 (talk) 05:14, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Cho murdered 32 people. Duke murdered nobody, he could not even shoot straight. Trailer trash with more ballistics than balls. WWGB (talk) 11:11, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment Sad that the article was written about the perpetrator of the crime, rather than about the security guard who saved everyone's lives. Perhaps it's because Mike Jones is a very common name, or that the alternative was an awkward title like "2010 Panama City school board meeting shooting". I'm afraid that making Mr. Duke the leading man, putting his name in lights and prominently displaying his photo, doomed this page from the beginning. It's possible that something that has been front page and lead story WP:NEWS might graduate into WP:EVENT, and that school board members will pack heat at their next meeting. On the other hand, a similar incident [8] is not mentioned at all in our article about Mount Pleasant, Iowa, and no indication that it changed the way that local meetings are conducted. Mandsford 14:10, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per WP:NOTNEWS and WP:PERPETRATOR with no prejudice against Clay Duke existing as a redirect to the shooting event if consensus dictates that said event merits inclusion. youngamerican (wtf?) 15:42, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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• Delete Are criminals honoured for their job? Not in my perspective. There's a published news source, but it does fail WP:NOTNEWS, WP:BIO1E and WP:ANYBIO. Minimac (talk) 04:44, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Redirect to an article about the incident itself per some of the rules stated. I would hesitate to say that this incident is as notable as the Columbine shootings or the Virginia Tech shootings, but the event itself is notable nonetheless. It would probably be fairer for only the incident itself to have an article instead of only this one person. Backtable _{Speak to me}^{concerning my deeds.} 06:13, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Redirect I agree the incident is noteworthy although the individual is not.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.173.182.192 (talk) 10:40, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete There are a lot of criminals and there is no benefit from erecting a shrine to those whose 15-minutes of fame has elapsed. That is, this subject fails notability requirements. Johnuniq (talk) 06:06, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Redirect I initially was for deletion, but I think a redirect to an article about the incident would be appropriate. The incident is newsworthy, Clay Duke is not on his own. Marshall Stax (talk) 10:03, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

With all due respect to those supporting a "redirect", I must point out that there is nothing to redirect to. To be fully honest I don't think the incident itself was sufficiently notable to merit an article, either, but that's another story. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 23:02, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• 2010 Panama City school board shootings — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ashershow1 (talk • contribs) 07:27, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

2010 Panama City school board shootings was created on December 21st, two days after I left the message re no article to redirect to. I will review the article to see if it qualifies as notable; however as the 2010 Panama City school board shootings article currently exists, the Clay Duke page is now clearly ready for its author (Ashershow1) to request its deletion. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 17:09, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete I echo the comments that Wikipedia is not a newspaper. There is a notability line for actors in current events. This individual doesn't have a speaking part. Jhw57 (talk) 13:34, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep I maintain the stance that Clay Duke is a notable figure due to the issues he raises, but I will reluctantly accept a merge, not a redirect with 2010 Panama City school board shootings. If there is an administrator here who is strongly for deletion, I will merge Clay Duke with the event article. Ashershow1 (talk) 21:05, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You don't get to vote four times. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 16:14, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• I must point out that keeping or deleting an article is not based on whether "there is an administrator... who is strongly for" one or the other, but on the consensus formed by all participants in the discussion, and the relative strengths of their arguments as based in WP policy. LadyofShalott 00:32, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Merge with the existing article on the shooting, there is no need for a separate article as he was not notable in any way beforehand. Zerbey (talk) 22:47, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep Seung-Hui Cho wasn't notable before hand. Neither was Eric Harris nor Dylan Klebold. Ashershow1 (talk) 02:39, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If you want to nominate the Seung-Hui Cho and Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold articles for deletion, go ahead. You don't get to vote two five times, though. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 02:59, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. Per Ashershow1. Just like Lee Harvey Oswald, or Jack Ruby. Although obviously you cannot compare the two with this event as its far smaller scaled, it doesn't mean that a smaller event invalidates this article's existence on this wiki. 24.1.211.254 (talk) 05:52, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

— 24.1.211.254 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

To say Clay Duke was "Just like Lee Harvey Oswald or Jack Ruby" is like comparing Perez Hilton to Ian McKellan, or Spencer Pratt and Heidi Montag to Burns & Allen. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 19:39, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• That's your opinion, you do not have a source for this. And I'm not going to nominate Seung-Hui Cho and Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold for deletion for the same reasons that I wouldn't nominate Clay Duke. Ashershow1 (talk) 20:16, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That's why the Duke page was nominated for you. I can't take the credit as I didn't have the chance to initiate it. Bongomatic did. I am glad to see, however, that you stopped voting after the fourth fifth time. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 21:33, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. The 15 minutes of fame are over; the name "Clay Duke" is now even harder to look up on regular news outlets due to its passing interest. Therefore there is no enduring notability per WP:NOTNEWS. Cactusjump (talk) 22:11, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Redirect In retrospect, I would be willing to support a redirect to the shooting itself but not an outright delete. Vandersontx (talk) 11:52, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I understand the general consensus here is to delete Clay Duke, so as the author of both Clay Duke, and 2010 Panama City school board shootings I will merge Clay Duke into 2010 Panama City school board shootings. The information from the Clay Duke page will be incorporated into a subsection of the event page. Clay Duke will also become a redirect to 2010 Panama City school board shootings. Ashershow1 (talk) 23:13, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hey. I see this has been a little traumatic for you and I apologize if you think anything I stated was out of line. A bit of advice: train yourself to remember always that no editor owns an article once they have submitted it, no matter how proud he or she may be with it. I know from my own experience. That being said, it is the closing admin who decides what happens to the article, although I suspect he or she won't make any drastic changes to your abovementioned plan of action. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 23:46, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, thanks for your input, I realize we're all just trying to improve Wikipedia here. I transferred all the info to 2010 Panama City school board shootings and redirected Clay Duke, now do I delete the page or does an administrator do that? Ashershow1 (talk) 01:10, 24 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Courcelles 00:00, 24 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

List of AC buses Bangalore (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

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There already exists an article listing the various routes of BMTC. I do feel that it is not required to have a separate article just to mention which of the routes are operated by AC buses. A separate section in the article Feeder and Metro BMTC Routes about what routes are operated by AC buses is quite sufficient. Abhishek191288 (talk) 07:53, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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• Speedy Delete- Wikipedia is not a public transport info page..--...Captain......Tälk tö me 04:42, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Spartaz ^Humbug! 05:16, 24 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

James Michalos (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

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Non-notable per WP:BAND, WP:WEB and WP:BIO, no significant coverage online from WP:Reliable sources, zero Google News hits for "James Michalos", "Plastic Snow" or "Rock n Rolling Snowman". If the song actually does well in the charts, then that might become notable enough for its own article. Proposed deletion removed without explanation by WP:Single purpose account. Invitrovanitas (talk) 10:02, 8 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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• Userfy. I don't understand how this has been rated as 50/1 by Ladbrokes when it has attracted zero coverage in GNews, but if someone thinks it's got a shot at no. 1, then there's a reasonable chance they'll make the Top 40. WP:CRYSTAL says we don't have articles based on speculation, but there's no harm keeping the article in userspace should the single get somewhere. Chris Neville-Smith (talk) 18:10, 8 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• In response to speculation point, have added past success in other industries, notably success in theatre that has already happened and demonstrates Mr Michalos' notability, with the speculative element re potential success reduced to one final paragraph that will undoubtably need editing one way or another later this month.

  News coverage for the song has been mainly radio so far. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CityLawyer (talk • contribs) 08:20, 9 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • His career in theatre may count towards notability with or without this single, but you're going about it the wrong way. You have to demonstrate that he has received significant coverage in independent reliable third-party sources. Simply listing previous productions he's been involved in isn't enough. Chris Neville-Smith (talk) 08:38, 9 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Googled and did find online coverage. Article about it here http://www.entsweb.co.uk/ TEACHER’S ROCKING SNOWMAN SONG IS THE BEST BET FOR CHRISTMAS NUMBER ONE Ladbrokes offers 50-1 on song recorded for just £100 reaching the top spot. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.187.66.162 (talk) 14:23, 9 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Entsweb.co.uk is a WP:SELFPUBLISHed site, and is therefore not a WP:Reliable source. Invitrovanitas (talk) 14:33, 9 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• The song is listed in Yahoos Top 10 Christmas Contenders list
  • http://new.uk.music.yahoo.com/blogs/hot_new_tunes/3180/christmas-chart-contenders/;_ylt=AmX4Qp6tc4WCob1p6EGF97QqFCYv?page=3#comments —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.187.66.162 (talk) 11:30, 13 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• And featured in the Telegraph
  • http://www.telegraph.co.uk/topics/christmas/8202014/Teachers-snowman-song-is-Christmas-number-one-contender.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.187.66.162 (talk) 11:32, 15 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

---

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein  07:31, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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• Delete - far from a "contender for Christmas number 1", the song has in fact missed the top 100 completely and in the absence of exceptional coverage is therefore not notable. I have no idea what the people who thought this had a genuine shot at Christmas number 1 were smoking..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 20:25, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Courcelles 00:29, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Invisible Dress (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

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Nothing to show that this book is notable. No GHits or GNEWS. Appears to fail WP:NOTBOOK. ttonyb (talk) 07:02, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete as not notable per WP:NB. Jimmy Pitt talk 11:32, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete, not a notable work. (I originally PRODded this.) - Realkyhick (Talk to me) 17:41, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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• Strong delete - non-notable story retold without a point. --Orange Mike | Talk 01:29, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - not a book, merely a story written by a schoolkid. Not notable at all -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 13:44, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Courcelles 00:29, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Billie and Bella(2):ed to an adventure (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

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Nothing to show that this book is notable. No GHits or GNEWS. Appears to fail WP:NOTBOOK. ttonyb (talk) 06:55, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete as not notable per WP:NB. Jimmy Pitt talk 11:33, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - if Billie and Bella(1) is unpublished, this sequel(?) is unpublished (and I also can't find any evidence that it is in print anywhere). Zero hits in WorldCat. --Quartermaster (talk) 13:25, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - the now-deleted article on the author revealed that he was an 11-year-old schoolkid, clearly this is just a story he's made up for his own amusement, not an actual book -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 17:00, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. Some kid is posting his stories on WP. - Realkyhick (Talk to me) 17:44, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. Courcelles 00:28, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Billie and Bella (1) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

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Nothing to show that this book is notable. No GHits or GNEWS. Appears to fail WP:NOTBOOK. ttonyb (talk) 06:55, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete - This story isn't published - says it all really -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:09, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - I originally PROD'd the article because it appeared not to meet the notability guidelines -- and that was without the bit about not being published. As per ChrisTheDude, that comment says it all. Jimmy Pitt talk 11:03, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Unpublished books are by definition not notable. --Quartermaster (talk) 13:22, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Unpublished, non-notable book. DARTH SIDIOUS 2 ^(Contact) 16:10, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. Some kid is posting his stories on WP. - Realkyhick (Talk to me) 17:44, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was keep. Courcelles 00:00, 24 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Estonia – Sri Lanka relations (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

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this article hinges on 4 sources. 3 of these sources are from embassy/foreign ministry websites so not totally third party. one source merely confirms the existence of a non resident ambassador. the number of actual sources specifically describing Estonia – Sri Lanka relations is weak. this article is not about Sri Lanka-EU relations, just because Estonia entered the EU does not suddenly translate to more relations exist. only one real "cooperation" agreement exists. "Agreement for Co-operation Between the Estonian Chamber of Commerce and Industry and the Ceylon Chamber of Commerce " is from 2 non official organisation not official government treaty. those wanting to argue keep should provide actual evidence of third party coverage. LibStar (talk) 06:40, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep Standard Wikipedia almanac entry. I am not sure what notability is required for an almanac entry. We use government or United Nations websites for all the almanac like entries on countries and economic data. The almanac entries for townships are just census dumps. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 06:56, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

then every bilateral pair would be notable? even though over 100 have been deleted through the AfD process? LibStar (talk) 07:10, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What good is an almanac that isn't complete? I don't know of any information that was deleted. Smaller articles were merged into larger articles on the foreign relations of those countries. So instead of one article, we duplicated the information in the two articles. Deleting the entry here just doubles the information elsewhere. Why duplicate it in two overly long lists? --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 07:25, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

many articles were deleted though. LibStar (talk) 07:26, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The TITLES were deleted because the redirects for say Estonia – Sri Lanka relations could either be directed to Foreign relations of Estonia OR Foreign relations of Sri Lanka and not BOTH, so they didn't make sense to keep around. An experiment was done to make a disambiguation page with redirects to both, but they were voted down by the editors that concentrate on disambiguation. The end result was duplicating all the information into the two articles. Which made sense for the articles containing just a few sentences, the Groubani stubs. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 08:21, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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• Keep – oh for fuck's sake, LibStar. Consular relations. Overseas visits. Commercial agreements. Promotion of tourism. This. This. This. This. It is completely beyond me why anyone would make a good-faith claim that the pair's relationship is not notable. ╟─TreasuryTag►Tellers' wands─╢ 20:19, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  Take a closer at those four sources you just dug up. They are truly pitiful. Yilloslime ^T_C 20:43, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  Not sure what's wrong with a source like this but if you don't like it then just make do with the consular relations, overseas visits, commercial agreements and promotion of tourism. ╟─TreasuryTag►ballotbox─╢ 20:59, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  That's only one that vaguely resembles a decent source (though it's about a specific event, and there's not much about the actual topic of SL-Estonia relations in general in there.) But the other three are utter shit. Why would you even bring them up here? Do you think people aren't going to check? Yilloslime ^T_C 21:24, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  You're quite good at selective ignoring, aren't you. We went from all four sources being "truly pitiful" to one of them "vaguely resembling a decent source." And you also managed to conveniently fail to notice if you don't like it then just make do with the consular relations, overseas visits, commercial agreements and promotion of tourism. So well done! ╟─TreasuryTag►prorogation─╢ 21:32, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  Treasury a reminder to be WP:CIVIL, if it's so obviously notable, it will be a unanimous keep. LibStar (talk) 22:58, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  Oh, so that's your reason for nominating perfectly decent articles for deletion – others will do the work for you. Great. ╟─TreasuryTag►Speaker─╢ 08:19, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete there appears to be virtually no trade or news of significance between the countries. Hard to see anything truly notable here.Nwlaw63 (talk) 20:54, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  Aside from the consular relations, overseas visits, commercial agreements and promotion of tourism, quite right. ╟─TreasuryTag►ballotbox─╢ 20:59, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment this is not indepth coverage and is merely mentioning Sri Lanka recognises Estonia, almost all nation states in the world recognise each other. this seems to source "Wikipedia" for its text.this is more about Iraq meeting Sri Lanka AND Estonia on the same day rather than Estonia-Sri Lanka relations. the sources are weak in establishing a notable relationship. relations exist but far from covered indepth in press. LibStar (talk) 23:03, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per documented paucity of independent, reliable sources that address the topic of Estonia-Sri Lanka relations directly, in detail. Yilloslime ^T_C 16:01, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep per Treasury. Ahmetyal 17:25, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Speedy Keep Why is this article being nominated for deletion again? It received a keep in the first AfD.[9] This article was adequately cited to achieve notability and that notability does not expire. This discussion is simply a second bite at the apple.--Cdogsimmons (talk) 02:50, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  I disagree that we should be restricting how often we can nom articles for AfD. Repeated noms have been a problem, but should be used when a previously kept pages get gutted or develop serious problems. However, in this case, nominator clearly did not use the talkpage to voice concerns prior, none of those problems apply to this page, and the nominator is abusing the Afd system Outback the koala (talk) 00:02, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Speedy Keep per treasurytags reasoning.--BabbaQ (talk) 18:06, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Speedy Keep as per treasurytag.--Blackknight12 (talk) 23:11, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong Keep this one is quite a ridiculous nom. At first glance, I was skeptical, but just look at the article! The rest per Treasury, big time. Outback the koala (talk) 23:57, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment it seems most of you have presented WP:JUSTAVOTE. I doubt you even looked at the sources Treasury found. They are weak indeed. This topic lacks indepth third party coverage. Please find some better source than Treasury than simply turning up and !voting. LibStar (talk) 02:05, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  Simultaneously ignoring WP:AGF and WP:PERNOM is quite impressive, but I should remind you that alleging bad faith is generally unacceptable unless there is clear evidence, and it is perfectly fine to argue based on another contributor's point: "if the rationale provided in the [point] includes a comprehensive argument, specific policy references and/or a compelling presentation of evidence [...] a simple endorsement of the [point] may be sufficient, typically indicated by 'per X'" – ╟─TreasuryTag►Not-content─╢ 08:17, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep - I have examined the sources in the article and those presented, and as much as the topic still doesn't seem notable to me, it nevertheless (a) passes the test of significant discussion in reliable independent sources and (b) the various markers that we have used to determine the notability of other bilateral relations topics (state visits, mutual embassies, significant bilateral agreements and projects). It therefore should be kept. And I'd again urge everyone participating to remain civil. We've done a LOT of bilateral relations AfDs at this point, and it's pretty clear that the community doesn't see attempts to delete them, or attempts to save them, on whatever grounds, as either foolish or in bad faith. - DustFormsWords (talk) 02:57, 20 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

there are no mutual embassies, no known visits of leaders to the other country and there is only one cooperation agreement, the other agreement is between the chambers of commerce which does not represent the official goverment. LibStar (talk) 03:19, 20 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• My apologies, you're technically correct, an embassy one way and a consul the other. There have been visits of leaders but not visits by head of state. The sources details significant bilateral agreements and projects. It's all sufficient to found notability of the topic. - DustFormsWords (talk) 03:52, 20 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

KeepThe existence of a comprehensive set of articles provides the structural framework that facilitates and encourages further contributions. In the case of many if not most articles at Wikipedia the eventual quality is the result of a process of accretive contribution, little stone on little stone. I really don't understand why so much effort is devoted to undermining that structure. Opbeith (talk) 12:22, 20 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep per WP:HEY, sources found by User:TreasuryTag, but without his vehemence. If they are not good enough for you, then you need to re-read WP:RS and WP:GNG. Bearian (talk) 15:27, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Courcelles 00:27, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Pat Spellman (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

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Delete. Non-notable person -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 06:10, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete'. Non-notable. Yet another example of how low some people set the notability standard. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 06:30, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Courcelles 00:01, 24 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The Definitive Collection (The Blues Brothers album) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

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Non-charting album, no sources outside Allmusic. Permastub. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • ^{(Otters want attention)} 05:41, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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• Weak Delete - It's apparent that this release was a poorly-promoted quickie that was ignored by the world and therefore doesn't deserve to be noticed here. However, per WP:NALBUMS, notice from AllMusic usually suffices for the tiniest glimmer of notability for an album. --DOOMSDAYER520 (Talk|Contribs) 22:39, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Courcelles 00:27, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Andrew Norton (politician) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

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Not noteworthy, First Person Links ☠  Travis "TeamColtra" McCrea ☠ - (T)(C) 20:47, 9 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• It appears from this article's talk page that this nomination is a result of an off-wiki dispute between the subject and nominator. As a member of another another Pirate Party I would say that as former head of the United States Pirate Party and coordinator of the first incarnation of Pirate Parties International that he is somewhat noteworthy and has been mentioned in some WP:RS, as has been mentioned on the article talk page. The article does need some more reliable sources but I think the article should be fixed before it should be deleted - especially if the main motivation behind the deletion is not an improvement of Wikipedia but the furthering of an off-wiki dispute. Thus, I say Keep and improve for the time being, if insufficient WP:RS appear then bring it back at a later date. -- M2Ys4U ^(talk) 06:00, 10 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • You got it M2Ys4U. The animosity Travis has for me is longstanding. Of course, Travis knows plenty of WP:RS (he was in charge of promoting the party, that was his job for 5 months) but instead of adding them, he choses to try and delete, what twice in three weeks? I'd add them myself, but it's not really allowed, is it? Never mind, I'll dig up links and send them to others to evaluate.Ktetch (talk) 17:29, 10 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • You can post them in this AFD for editors to evaluate. I'm certainly open to revisiting my opinion if sources can be produced. -- Whpq (talk) 18:48, 10 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • OK, some sources. Not sure on the RS of some but here we go. Since Robotics is mentioned as my degree, we can start there. I was on the UK Show RobotWars, as part of the middleweight winning team, running Hard Cheese (final episodes of both season 2 and season 3 of the show confirm). I also worked on the US show BattleBots including as a safety and technical inspector, and running the pits. Quite a lot of background footage throughout the seasons of that, plus things like Battlebot Beginnings - badges here (not an RS I know, since it's my own, old (untouched since i moved to the US site). I was also profiled on ComedyCentral.com during the 2.0 season, and was the frontpage for a day (alas I have no copy of it any more, and the internet archive doesn't carry that particular day, I've sent an email to them asking for them to check their archives). Finally, I was in episode 10 of Spaced (including some personal closeups, such as 20:39 on the hulu copy). I'm digging through for some 'politician' ones. And I think the only reason Gamesbart used _(politician) is because there's already another Andrew Norton, and that best describes what I'm currently doing in one word. Oh, and I think i'm in 'yes Admiral Ozzel' (ISBN 1840241039) as well (Michael was the first friend my wife met), from my sci-fi event days. Ktetch (talk) 23:06, 15 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - As an unelected politician, he does not meet WP:POLITICIAN. I can find no significant independent coverage in reliable sources to establish notability, so WP:GNG is also not satisfied. The sourcing in the article is not independent. I can find no coverage myself. The sourcces alluded to boce in the article talk page are not sources, but assertions that coverage exists without actually providing any examples of said coverage. He is quoted in articles, but that's not coverage about him. -- Whpq (talk) 14:21, 10 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Non-notable. He was chairman for a year and a half of a very, very minor political party which has never run a candidate for office. The only coverage found is self-referential. --MelanieN (talk) 14:53, 15 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep and improve As head of the national party, and the first head of the international group, it's notable, but needs moer sources. Look at Michael Steele, The majority of that article is about his time as RNC chair, rather than his time as an elected politician (Lt Gov somewhere) or if you want another politician that ran, and didn't win a seat, there's Michael Badnarik. I also think that there's a strong personal motivation behind the deletion. MOst of the other Pirate Party articles are even worse sourced, and they have not been put up for deletion. Muon1 (talk) 17:39, 15 December 2010 (UTC) — Muon1 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
  • Comment Comparing the national chairman of the Republican Party to the national chairman of a minor-to-trivial party like the Pirate Party is ludicrous. In particular, Michael Steele has generated a ton of coverage as national chairman, while Andrew Norton has generated virtually none. In my opinion the Pirate parties are barely notable (neither of them has ever run a candidate for election or gotten certified to appear on a state ballot), but I am leaving them alone since most of us tend to cut political parties a lot of slack. However, I have put a note on the talk page of Talk:Pirate Party of Oklahoma saying that I think the state party does not deserve its own article and should be merged/redirected to United States Pirate Party - as per WP:CLUB which indicates that local chapters of national organizations are not generally notable. --MelanieN (talk) 23:42, 15 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Neither of them? Theres about 30 different parties. and as for 'never run a candidate or been certified' there are two Pirate MEP's in Sweden, elected while I was head of Pirate Party International (in fact trying to get people into office for a big multi-national election like that was WHY I moved over to be PPI's first head, and the strain of it was why i stepped down not long after the election. Ktetch (talk) 23:54, 15 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • I was unclear. Yes, there are Pirate Parties in Europe that have some credibility. I was talking about the two Pirate Party affiliates linked to Andrew Norton (which I gather is you) - namely the United States Pirate Party and the Pirate Parties International. Those both seem pretty trivial at this point, but there seems to be some ongoing activity so I am willing to leave their articles alone. The discussion here is about this article about you. It's possible that you as an individual will get more coverage at some future time, but for now you don't seem to meet Wikipedia's notability requirements for an individual (which you can read at WP:BIO) - namely, significant coverage ABOUT YOU in independent reliable sources. There are other places where you can have articles, but Wikipedia's standards are pretty high. --MelanieN (talk) 00:52, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, -- Cirt (talk) 05:25, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. I think I agree with MelanieN's reasoning here. The Pirate Party Sweden is a party that has members elected to legislatures, the Pirate Party US and PPI does not. GNews search of "Andrew Norton" pirate suggests coverage is slim, and we don't keep articles just because someone promised that reliable sources will be added one day later. Oh, and Mr. Norton might want to read WP:PROUD before pushing for his inclusion on Wikipedia too hard. Chris Neville-Smith (talk) 08:01, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. -- Cirt (talk) 05:39, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

International Montessori Society (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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I went to try to balance this article today, and found it impossible without deleting a great bulk of the content enclosed. It is well written from the point of view of IMS, but seeing as it's an extreme splinter group, with fewer than 10 'accredited' schools in the USA, and is non-accredited by the certifying body for Montessori teacher education (which is not funded by either AMI or AMS), this article is essentially an advertisement. A closer look at the IMS website revealed no quantifiable criteria for a school or teacher of theirs, they cite no work not published by themselves, and not known in the industry. They are accredited by an accrediting body that is not recognized by the USA department of education and of which they are part of, after being denied certification by the state of MD and the USDE. They appear to be a Montessori diploma mill. For these reasons, I am nominating this article for deletion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TheLastAlcoholic (talk • contribs) 2010-12-09 01:25:49

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• Delete It's borderline, but I'm leaning towards delete. I cleaned up a good deal of the puffery, but basically the story is "Sometimes I get in the newspaper for failing to meet education standards, or for leading a workshop". There's a below-average amount of coverage, and I don't think that we could write much of an article based primarily upon WP:Independent sources (as required by WP:V). WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:37, 15 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, -- Cirt (talk) 05:13, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete - at least as a stand alone article. I wouldn't even go so far as to recommend a merge into one of the existing Montessori articles, but could see a cited mention of their existence (possibley including accreditation by a non-authoritative accreditation body), but the article adds nothing to this encyclopedia other than proclaiming the group exists. --Quartermaster (talk) 13:34, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Courcelles 00:02, 24 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

USS Indianapolis in popular culture (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

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Trivia. WP:NOTADIR. No reason why this deserves a separate article. Bulldog123 01:39, 9 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Trim and merge to USS Indianapolis (CA-35). Several of the entries are not references "in popular culture," but rather nonfiction books and documentaries about it. The remainder appear to be substantial and notable enough to merit mentioning in the main article, which can easily incorporate them. Those aren't just one-off lines (strawman example of a trivial reference: "In an episode of Will and Grace, Grace threatens to "sink [Jack] like the USS Indianapolis"), but rather substantive portrayals and references, such as the famous scene in Jaws. postdlf (talk) 02:30, 9 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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• Trim and merge per Postdlf - meant to post this earlier but got distracted following links after reading the page. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 04:14, 9 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • That's something I'm often afflicted of myself. :P bahamut0013^words_deeds 22:40, 9 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Straight delete there's no secondary sources for the cultural impact. As of this date stamp Jaws which is of obvious cultural impact is already in the main article, many of the other points already present. Seek secondary sources for cultural impact for the main article. Fifelfoo (talk) 04:32, 9 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per Fifelfoo. Nothing here is worth salvageing. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • ^{(Otters want attention)} 05:00, 9 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. —Nick-D (talk) 07:37, 9 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Trim and merge per Postdlf. A little bit of the meat here is salvagable. bahamut0013^words_deeds 22:40, 9 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• merge back into USS Indianapolis (CA-35), where originally came from [10], and trim if necessary. Moving "in popular culture" sections into seperate articles is never a good idea; it is usually part of a cunning two-step plan to get rid of these unloved sections while avoiding discussion about it: first split them out (which is uncontroversial because the content is not deleted), and then just wait until they are nominated for deletion because they are just lists that don't work well as stand-alone articles. --memset (talk) 00:49, 10 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Do we have to have a popular culture section in every article? The original assumption was that popular culture was notable while military history is not, so a popular culture section prevented your military history article from being deleted. But I have nothing but sympathy for an editor who is an expert on warships who has what he feels is a feature quality article but has no idea how to verify or reference a passing mention of his ship in an obscure novel and an unreleased movie. Hawkeye7 (talk) 20:20, 12 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - per WP:MILPOP which states: "In popular culture" sections should be avoided unless the subject has had a well-cited and notable impact on popular culture." I fail to see how the entries in this article are either well-cited or have a had a notable impact on popular culture. As such I think deletion is more appropriate than merging which will only detract from the parent article (per Hawkeye). Anotherclown (talk) 22:36, 12 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Is there a more general version of Wikipedia:MILPOP#Popular_culture somewhere? Bulldog123 10:18, 13 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure I'm afraid. Anotherclown (talk) 13:49, 13 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Is Wikipedia:"In popular culture" content what you're looking for? -- saberwyn 02:27, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, thanks. I don't know why it was so hard for me to find that. Bulldog123 11:38, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't it different where the cultural work actually depicts the article's subject, rather than just referencing (i.e., mentioning) it? As long as the cultural work is itself notable or by a notable creator, and the depiction is substantial. Then I don't think it's really an "in popular culture" section, but "dramatic depictions" or "fictional depictions" or something else. postdlf (talk) 14:01, 13 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, -- Cirt (talk) 05:13, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete per Anotherclown and Fifelfoo and oppose remerge as that would just keep this stuff around. If someone wants to tack on a reliably-sourced prose addition to the main article they would be more than able to do so without any of this. ThemFromSpace 06:08, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Merge there have been significant dramatizations of the sinking of the Indianapolis that deal solely with the Indianapolis, or the courtmartial, and those should be documented on the popular culture list. The current entry on the Indiapolis page about JAWS is useless and should be removed. "The sinking of Indianapolis and ordeal of the survivors and subsequent rescue at sea is chronicled in the book In Harm's Way: The Sinking of the U.S.S. Indianapolis and the Extraordinary Story of Its Survivors by Doug Stanton, originally published in 2001. Survivor Edgar Harrell recounted his experience in the 2005 work Out of the Depths, co-authored with his son, David Harrell. Earlier accounts of the Indianapolis tragedy are Raymond Lech's All the Drowned Sailors, published in 1982, and Richard F. Newcomb's Abandon Ship! The Saga of the U.S.S. Indianapolis, the Navy's Greatest Sea Disaster, originally published in 1958 and re-published with a new introduction and afterword in 2001." should be in the Indy article, as it documents NON-FICTION about the sinking. 65.93.13.227 (talk) 07:13, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

How are non-fiction works about the sinking popular culture references? Surely they are just potential references for the article itself (assuming they're reliable)? Anotherclown (talk) 07:33, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It is a popular account of the sinking, instead of the courtmartial transcript? Or the memoirs of the sailors who survived... 65.93.13.227 (talk) 07:57, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps it's time to make a Sinking of USS Indianapolis (CA-35) article, with the sinking and aftermath portion of the Indy article separated into the new article, with it's impact on popular culture, and enduring popularity as evidenced by the dramatizations that keep cropping up and documentary specials. 65.93.13.227 (talk) 08:08, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A nonfiction work could be a popular culture item if it were widely known but not researched or documented at the level needed to be a useful source for the article. This would not necessarily be a rap on the work; if there are two or more heavily referenced histories a lighter popular history is not needed as a source but may have a lot of influence on the public understanding of the event. Popular culture is broader than fictional treatments.Dankarl (talk) 14:18, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Why would we split it off? It's already covered at the main article. If you can properly source the pop culture impacts, then cite them there. Article size isn't an issue in its current form. bahamut0013^words_deeds 12:39, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It was a naval engagement that is notable, which had legal consequences (the courts martial), and entered popular knowledge because of the sinking. 65.94.46.54 (talk) 08:43, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That argument extends only to the necessity of coverage, which is already present, and not to the necessity of an entire article. The majority of the Indianapolis article covers the event, and to split it off would strip most of the substance (and most of the notability). Article size and readability isn't an issue, and the incident didn't really involve enough ships to be considered a battle proper. Most of the noteriety comes from the Navy's mistake on recovery, and not from the sinking itself anyway. I just can't see the need for having an independant article. bahamut0013^words_deeds 14:48, 20 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep or MergeThe sinking of the Indianapolis has entered into popular culture, and should be treated someplace. It should not be too hard to document; typing up proper citations to the individual works listed would be a start. Where to treat it may be a matter of policy or of editorial judgment that I'll leave to those closer to the issue.Dankarl (talk) 14:15, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete trivia clearly unworthy of its own article.Nwlaw63 (talk) 20:48, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete or Redirect or Merge. These are not popular culture manifestations, these are ordinary depictions. Abductive (reasoning) 02:17, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete IF we are going to have a page on the pop culture relating to Indianapolis - and that's a very big if - then this page is surely a 4.0 demonstration of how not to go about creating such a page. For starts this is a list, and the material poorly cited at that. Aside from its milpop issues, the fact remains that the material present asserts no notability whatsoever. We could merge it back into the parent article, but why bother when what is presented here is not worth saving in the first place. TomStar81 (Talk) 20:10, 20 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.