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Executive summary: regarding the capitalization of "Black" and "white" (referring to racial groups), let's please find out what major publications such as Time and so forth are doing, and let's write that down as our rule. Detailed argument follows.

So, the capitalization of "Black" (referring to African-Americans or other people of color) has become totally established in the press, like, overnight; I've never seen anything be accepted so fast, seems like in a few weeks it went from 0% to 100%.

I mean, I am writing "Black" because if I didn't I'd be like the only one in the world it seems. It's that universal. Sure, we are supposed to lag the cutting edge somewhat, but neither are we supposed to be essentially the only mainstream publication using a format that nobody else is.

So, the problem with this is, what do you do with "white". There's an argument to capitalize it -- "The film was popular with both Black and white people" looks a bit odd, does it not?. But then you have "Most of the town's Whites opposed the candidate" and what have you, which, the capitalization of "White" grates and looks, well, racist. I don't know if we capitalize "White Power" and "White Pride" as a proper nouns (I wouldn't think so) and assuming not, then you have "There was a well-attended White pride parade"... uh, that's not good.

I think the reason for this is that "White pride" is not a legit thing, because there's no such ethnicity or nation as "White". "Italian pride" and "Irish pride" are fine, because those are ethnicities/nations. (And "White pride" is only used by racist blackguards.)

Black (African-American) is also not an ethnicity but it is treated as such primarily because African ethnicity was entirely mixed up and destroyed by the slavers. You can't really have "Ibo pride" or "Nigerian pride" because most African-Americans don't know their background that well. Black (African-American) is also treated as a distinct cohesive group because, well, in some ways it is. Black people are a minority in America and have a distinct universal experience (of oppression and segregation) and a distinct minority culture that whites just don't have. There is Black music (I mean the blues and all) and Black literature etc., while there simply is no such thing as "white music" and "white literature" in the same way (I mean generally; some exceptions apply when specifically doing cultural studies and comparisons and so on). James Baldwin was a "Black writer" but Kurt Vonnegut wasn't a "white writer", see what I mean?

So, what should it be?

• "black" and "white" (and you'll get a shitstorm partly because lower-case "black" is now considered racist in the real world)
• "Black" and "White" (and you'll get a shitstorm because upper-case "White" has been and is considered racist in the real world)
• "Black" and "white" (and you'll get a shitstorm because its unequal and people can say it valorizes one group vis a vis another)
• Leave it to the individual editor (and you'll get an endless drama of people bitching about in scores of individual articles and accusing each other being racist, and anyway even tho lots of things here don't need to be standarized, if this one isn't it seems odd and generally a headache)
• Lets see what other important publications do and do that (Let's do this! Please! I get that we don't usually slavishly follow other publications, but in this case, let's. There's no "right way" here, so let's just avoid the shitstorms.)

So who wants to do the research (altho this is so new that wheel might still be in spin) and write that up toute de suite. Herostratus (talk) 02:42, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

@Herostratus: Is this only for the United States, or is the usage changing elsewhere too (Canada, UK, etc.)?

I'm not sure it's possible to survey all recent uses of these words to refer to race, but for reference, here's some sources discussing it:

• Why we capitalize ‘Black’ (and not ‘white’), CJR; this reversed course from an earlier piece, noting journalism has continued to evolve in its approach to covering race.
• Why We’re Capitalizing Black, NYT: “Some have been pushing for this change for years,” Mr. Lacey said. “They consider Black like Latino and Asian and Native American, all of which are capitalized. Others see the change as a distraction from more important issues. Then there are those troubled that our policy will now capitalize ‘Black’ but not ‘white.’ Over all, the view was that there was a growing agreement in the country to capitalize and that The Times should not be a holdout.”
• AP says it will capitalize Black but not white. Columbia Journalism Review, the Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, USA Today, the Los Angeles Times, NBC News and Chicago Tribune are among the organizations that have recently said they would capitalize Black but have not done so for white. ... In some ways, the decision over “white” has been more ticklish. The National Association of Black Journalists and some Black scholars have said white should be capitalized, too. ... “We agree that white people’s skin color plays into systemic inequalities and injustices, and we want our journalism to robustly explore these problems,” John Daniszewski, the AP’s vice president for standards, said in a memo to staff Monday. “But capitalizing the term white, as is done by white supremacists, risks subtly conveying legitimacy to such beliefs.”
• Opinion piece in The Atlantic that seems to have been influential.
• The Brookings Institute writing to AP before it announced the above, encouraging it to capitalize Black.
• The footnote in this paper: I capitalize “Black”when referring to Black people, because as explained by Kimberlé Cren-shaw, “Black[people], like Asian[people], Latin[x/e], and other ‘minorities,’constitute a specific cultural group and, as such, require denotation as a proper noun.’...I do not capitalize ‘white,’which is not a proper noun, since [neither white people nor ‘people of color’refers to] a specific cultural group.”Kimberlé Crenshaw, Mapping the Margins: Intersectionality, Identity Politics, and Violence against Women of Color, 43 STAN.L.REV.1241, 1244 n.6 (1991). In this context, Black is both a racial category that encompasses many cultures and ethnicities of African descendants, and a specific culture borne out of collective resistance to anti-Black oppression and preservation of ancestralpractices.
• Here is a similar footnote in an academic journal.

Those are the first few results of a quick search for 'capitalize black'. --Aquillion (talk) 03:18, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

I haven't looked outside the United States, no; I think that American usage should weigh pretty heavily here in this particular case, on account of its large Black population, and its history.

Thank you for the work User:Aquillion! For my part, this is sufficient to go with a Black-white paradigm as the the least-bad. What we need is to get that accepted, and to that I think a two-pronged argument -- that its the least racist looking, AND that major pubs are doing that -- might do the trick. A bit more research, than an RfC? Herostratus (talk) 03:42, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

There was an RfC on this at MOS:CAPS from just 7 months ago: Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters/Archive 32#Proposed update to MOSCAPS regarding racial terms. The closure states: Consensus against changing MOSCAPS to capitalize "Black" when used as a racial or ethnic descriptor. A raw vote count has a significant majority opposing the change, although an analysis of arguments made suggests a closer outcome than the votes, as many of the arguments made in opposition were rebutted or missed the point entirely. Ultimately, the decisive question is how RS use the terms; while several reliable sources (and particularly US sources) have adopted capital-B Black for the racial grouping, several counter-examples were also provided (including examples from US sources)....sufficient opposition such that the matter should not be reopened at a project-wide level until either further developments occur (i.e. more style guides adopting capital-form) or significant time has passed. More recently there was this discussion with a short RfC stating that MOS:CAPS did not need to be changed and was consistent with the earlier RfC: Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters#Discussion about capitalisation of Black (people).

I disagree that capitalizing "White" alongside "Black" looks racist, though my preference is that both be lowercase, as terms primarily for skin color and "races". Black people are also ethnically diverse - an African-American identity is not the same thing as the many ethnicities of Africa, for instance. The reason white pride is not legitimate is not because there is no such thing as white people, but because white people as a group already are esteemed by society and treated as a norm, in the U.S. and ethnically similar countries anyway (again, as a group), so pushing "pride" in being white is just another term for white supremacy. (Likewise, the existence of so-called straight pride as a reaction to gay pride does not negate the existence of heterosexuality.) The idea that there is no such ethnicity as white or that white does not refer to a specific cultural group does not really make sense to me. What cultural group in the American South was it, then, that promoted and enforced Jim Crow laws? Many white people have ancestry basically equally divided from many different places in Europe and elsewhere, so it's not like they are actually German-American or English-American or whatever. They don't consider themselves that. So what ethnicity are they?

Some of Aquillion's sources note arguments that both should be capitalized. The AP quote says, The National Association of Black Journalists and some Black scholars have said white should be capitalized, too. This Atlantic article I found to be very thought-provoking and makes an argument for capitalizing both as the most anti-racist option.

I emphasize that above all we need to go by the recent RfC, and that any reopening of discussion on this would need to survey a wide array of sources and be careful not to exclude from the dataset sources that did not make changes in Summer 2020 as others did. Per WP:Due weight, we should also be looking for the opinions of linguists and other relevant academic experts, even more so than journalists. And, again, my own preference is to capitalize neither black nor white. Crossroads ^-talk- 04:04, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

We just had an RfC on this about two months ago. The idea of writing "Black but white" came nowhere close to gaining consensus. The closer (unaware of prior background) was generally down on capitalizing any of these things, but there's never been a rule to not capitalize them, nor to capitalize them. They just have to be treated consistently in the same article (MOS:ARTCON). WP shouldn't be using "ivory" and "ebony" in its own voice anyway; those are silly and rather outmoded evocative terms that lack neutrality. The "capitalize to show esteem" argument has already failed to gain consensus, both in the last RfC and in general for many years: we have an entire guideline section MOS:EMPHCAPS on not misusing capitalization as a form of emphasis/signification. PS: No, we do not care what journalists are doing; encyclopedic style is very different from news style, and WP is not written in new style, as a matter of clear policy. Our style guide is based on academic style guides (mostly Chicago Manual of Style and New Hart's Rules, plus Scientific Style and Format), and literally nothing in it was taken from a news style guide like AP Stylebook. Many, many times have people argued to change MoS based on AP or some other news style sheet (from NYT, The Guardian, The Economist, etc.), and the answer is always "no". PPS: The OP is fudging the "real world" reality. Using black is considered racist only when it's done in a pointed manner, e.g. next to White; White is considered racist only likewise in a pointed manner. There are many mainstream publications that use black and white, and quite a few that use Black and White, and this has actually been true since at leaste the 1980s. The new fad of Black but white is a politically motivated Americanism, recentism, and journalese-ism, and the fighting about it off-site is entirely politically driven. There's nothing even faintly neutral about using it or proposing its use here.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:38, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

I agree with almost all of that, but it's not really fair to say that a mere proposal is political and non-neutral (unless it were a case of the same person participating in/proposing the same proposal every one or two months, like (e.g.) Ukranian nationalists did every month for 3 years straight to get Kiev changed to Kyiv). Also, there was never any suggestion of using "ebony" and "ivory" in Wikivoice; I think Herostratus was just being cute with the discussion header. I'm also unclear what's unneutral about it - it's cheesy, but it seems neutral enough..? Ebony and ivory are what black and white piano keys were respectively made from, historically. Then in the '80s it was the title of a schmaltzy duet by Paul McCartney and Stevie Wonder. Aside from that... only possibly controversial thing is in regard to ivory and how it's obtained. Firejuggler86 (talk) 15:19, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

• Comment, I do seriously question the veracity of the statement "lowercase black is now considered racist in the real world". Exactly what do you consider "the real world"? Corporate conference rooms in skyrise buildings in the centres of the affluent financial districts of major cities, filled with (undoubtedly overwhelmingly white) "task forces" (e.g.) sipping Starbucks lattes and pretending to fuss about "oppression" and that somehow a lowecase b vs an uppercase B is the cause of all the inequality woes in the world, when in reality the only actual objective they have is to maximise their bottom line for their ultra-wealthy shareholders. It's a classic case of corporate "keeping up with the Joneses" because it's the "hip" thing to do right now. We have no such monetary incentives. That's what differentiates us from everyone else, and Wikipedia was never meant to be like other publications because it isn't like other publications. (I also make note that, in the last year or so that this trend began, racism in society had not improved - after last summer's widespread enthusiasm cooled off, the racists have crawled out from their nooks and crannies more emboldened and unapologetically vocal than they've been since 1968 :\. ) Now, I fully agree that racists should not be catered to - not a thousandth of an inch. We should not be doing the opposite, to antagonise them either, though. Whatever short term satisfaction you might get out of it, it's bound to backfire. Firejuggler86 (talk) 14:32, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
• Black and White or black and white. I personally like lowercase when it comes to colours, but I am perfectly fine with uppercase too - so long as all colours are treated the same way within their articles and/or article sections (including brown, and, if it were to be applicable, currently defunct/deprecated colours like red and yellow). For example, in South Africa, they have Whites, Blacks, and Coloureds; always capitalised, but not quite the same situation as America or England, so maybe irrelevant. Anyway, see my post advice for my arguments. Firejuggler86 (talk) 14:42, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Firejuggler86, please see the 59 tables in this article for "all colours [should be] treated the same way". BTW, I can't find a style guide for the Chronicle of Higher Education, but articles like this one have uppercase B and lowercase w. Also, I have yet to run into someone who actually claims that "somehow a lowecase b vs an uppercase B is the cause of all the inequality woes in the world". Drmies (talk) 15:45, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
• In the "real world" it's mostly still black and white. Neither is racist, whatever the woke brigade might like to claim. Neither is a genuine ethnicity, neither does actually refer to a cultural group (try telling people from Jamaica, people from Kenya and people from Nigeria that they all have the same culture!) and neither is derived from a place that is a proper name (like Asian). They're based on the perception of the colour of someone's skin, for crying out loud. How on earth can that be a proper name? Oh, and let's also remember that there is a very big world outside the US of A! Some of us actually live in it. I know, who would have thought... -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:28, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Necrothesp, I was willing to entertain your argument until you started talking about "woke brigade", and your counterargument is starting to sound a lot like "designating groups is divisive". Note: I live in the real world too. Drmies (talk) 15:40, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
    • We are an encyclopaedia, not a soapbox. When people start to claim that capitalising one or other term is racist when it blatantly is not then we're going down the latter route. Note: The "real world" comment was taken from the OP (lower-case "black" is now considered racist in the real world.... What utter rubbish.). -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:43, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
      • If it's a soapbox, it's one that many, many organizations, and not just news organizations, have adopted, and there is no reason for our practice to simply disregard what their practice already is. As for "when it blatantly is not"--that's actually you climbing on a soapbox. Drmies (talk) 15:47, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
        • No, it's common sense. How can not capitalising someone's vaguely defined skin colour possibly be considered to be racist? But once again, I say, there's a world outside the USA. The BBC, for example, does not capitalise black. Even the famously liberal Guardian newspaper, which would probably self-destruct if anyone even suggested it might be racist, doesn't. The assumption seems to be that because American organisations are doing it, the whole world does it and ergo Wikipedia should do it. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:53, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
• We JUST held a massive RFC on this exact issue. Too soon to discuss it again. Blueboar (talk) 16:48, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
• Personally, I would only use Black and White when comparing and contrasting with other ethnic groups ("Blacks yadda yadda yadda, while Hispanics foobarity foo"). Or in proper nouns. When used as simple descriptors, I would leave them lowercase ("the crash killed four people: two white females and two black females"). --Khajidha (talk) 19:32, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

It would really help if the MOS:LQ examples were of the kinds of material we quote here in Wikipedia articles rather than short examples from narrative fiction. Because I am puzzled by two apparently contradictory guidelines – "Include terminal punctuation within the quotation marks only if it was present in the original material" and "If the quotation is a single word or a sentence fragment, place the terminal punctuation outside the closing quotation mark."

Here is the original source material, from a well-known book on a presidential election:

Thus, since he who lives by the polls must die by the polls, George Romney took his decision forthrightly, openly, bravely, and on February 28th called an end to it, leaving behind the impression of an honest and decent man simply not cut out to be President of the United States.

And here is its use in a Wikipedia article:

Presidential historian Theodore H. White wrote that during his campaign Romney gave "the impression of an honest and decent man simply not cut out to be President of the United States."[192]

or

Presidential historian Theodore H. White wrote that during his campaign Romney gave "the impression of an honest and decent man simply not cut out to be President of the United States".[192]

Is the period inside the quotation mark correct, because it was inside in the material being quoted? Or should the period be outside the quotation mark, because only part of the original sentence is being quoted? I have thought it was the former, and I think the latter kinds of misrepresents the source, but it has been changed to the latter by another editor. I just want to know which one is intended by MOS:LQ. Thanks ... Wasted Time R (talk) 11:19, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Excellent point, WTR. The MOS should interact with editors' usage on the encyclopedia, surely, but in this instance the guidance is confusing, or at least, could be less confusing. (I brought this up here years ago. More practical wording and examples were added, by other too; they've since been removed.) I remember seeing an article make FA with the precise opposite of LQ applied, but editors at the FAC seemed convinced that the approach they followed was in keeping with what was outlined here.

The answer to your query is the second example: the quoted portion is not a complete sentence, therefore (logically), end punctuation should sit after the quote mark. JG66 (talk) 11:41, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Hi,

I had a discussion with another person on the talk page of the article In Rainbows about the capitalisation of "Internet" (referring to the global interconnected network generally used today), as they changed the capitalisation back from how I had edited it (to capitalise the "I"). They mentioned that as there is no formal decision on this, people editing Wikipedia can do as they like, so it may be capitalised in one article and uncapitalised in another, depending on the consensus of that particular article. However, I consider this to be something of a problem. I think it looks rather strange if we have no formal consensus on this.

My position on this is that the word should be capitalised when it refers to the Internet (the one we are using right now) as opposed to an internet; this makes sense to me, as it makes for an easy distinction between "merely 'an' interconnected network" and "the main interconnected network most are familiar with".

The other person's position is there is no reason to consider Internet as a proper noun; therefore, it should not be capitalised. They cited some sources recommending that people no longer capitalise Internet (the talk page of the In Rainbows article contains the links to the sources in question).

So, there are three options here:

• (A) Capitalise the word internet whenever it refers to the global interconnected network most commonly used today
• (B) Don't capitalise the word internet in any case
• (C) Per-article consensus on the matter, as it is now

Please indicate which option you prefer below, explaining why if possible. Regards, DesertPipeline (talk) 12:43, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

Addendum: Another way of looking at this, as Gah4 helped me realise with their comment in the Discussion subsection below, is that "Internet" is a name; "internet" is a term. DesertPipeline (talk) 05:33, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

Addendum 2: It is important to consider that option B would require writing about various related topics, and renaming their articles, such as Internet of Things, in ways that may or may not comport with source usage (mostly not). From a quick review of this discussion, is appears that very few if any supporters of B have taken this into account.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:33, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

How important is it that "Internet of Things" is consistently capped in sources, but "the internet" is not? Can we cope? Dicklyon (talk) 05:38, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

I'm not seeing the dilemma here either. If sources consistently cap "Internet of Things" (though I have a feeling they don't), then we can do that too, regardless of whether we cap "internet" standalone. Popcornfud (talk) 13:33, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Survey

Remember: The survey is not a vote; its purpose is to organise the opinions of all participating persons. Please make sure to provide a rationale when leaving a comment. If someone else has said something that you agree with, but have nothing more to add to, please mention your agreement with their message in the Discussion subsection, rather than replying – or adding a new bullet point – in the Survey section. The Discussion subsection should also preferably be used to reply to anything in the Survey section to improve readability. The templates ((tq)) (for single-paragraph quotes) and ((talkquote)) (for multi-paragraph quotes) can be used to quote text from the Survey section to indicate what is being replied to.

Please place a comment in the subsection corresponding to your choice below, with your reasoning.

Option A (Capitalise when name; lowercase when term)

• Capitalize the proper noun name of our favorite network of networks, (also known as internets): The Internet or just Internet. As noted below, I don't know why it didn't get a nice name like everything else. Talking to someone who actually wrote the book about Ethernet (which is also capitalized as a proper noun), it seems that no-one thought about naming it before it was too late. Gah4 (talk) 06:01, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

  This comment has been responded to in the Discussion subsection: link to response.

• Capitalize when used as a proper name, otherwise lowercase. Blueboar (talk) 21:20, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
• Capitalise if we're talking about the medium in which users can communicate globally. Otherwise, standard all-lowercase works for talking about the kind of network. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 22:02, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
• Capitalize in reference to the Internet; lowercase when referring to generic technologies (usable on an intranet). We've been over this again and again and again (and the "give me lower case or give me death" folks really need to stop WP:FORUMSHOPping this again and again and again in hopes of getting the answer they want). It does not matter that various newspapers and bloggers and so forth are too ignorant to know that the Internet is a proper name and that an internet is not, and that they are not the same subject. Wikipedia knows better, and our job is to be factual and to communicate clearly, not to immitate lazy, confusing style found in other publishers with lax standards. For those not aware of it, an internet is an (i.e., any) inter-network, what is more commonly called a WAN (wide-area network) today. This question also applies to [W|w]eb: Use Web when it means the World Wide Web. It's fine to lower-case both terms when used as modifiers and as generic technology descriptors, since they can refer to protocols from the Internet and the Web usable in an isolated intranet circumstance: "internet-technology server", "web developer", etc. When fully compounded, also use lower-case: website, webpage, internetworking (these terms are not proper names so should not be capitalized). Remember also that Internet of Things is a proper name. As a subset of the Internet, it would not be a proper name if the Internet were not one itself. And some modifier cases will remain capitalized, because they refer to (and may be definitional of) proper-name the Internet: "the Internet protocol suite", etc. See also Internet Standard, which is a proper name (a formal IETF spec); this is distinct from "an internet standard" a vague term we should not use which could mean "any standard pertaining to internet technology").  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  10:14, 22 February 2021 (UTC); revised 10:30, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

  This comment has been responded to in the Discussion subsection: link to response.

• Capitalise is correct for The Internet and lowercase is correct for a general internet. However, Wikipedia is not about being correct — it is about reporting the sources — GhostInTheMachine ^{talk to me} 13:24, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

  This comment has been responded to in the Discussion subsection: link to response.

• Capitalize. It's fallen out of favor (AP Style shifted to never capitalize a decade or so ago), but it still strikes me as wrong and potentially confusing to treat it generically instead of as a proper name for the global network. Carter (talk) 01:17, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
• Capitalize, in particular, because it continues to be used as a name: on the Internet, and because it refers to a specific technology and a set of protocols. -Mardus /talk 07:47, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
• Capitalize.. This is one of a handful of issues on which I fully concur with User:SMcCandlish. --Coolcaesar (talk) 21:04, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
• Capitalize per SMcCandlish. It's been some twenty years since I had studied Evi Nemeth and those O'Reilly's books that are considered the most reliable textbooks on the system administration. They all define it clearly: the Internet (historically DARPA Internet) is the global network, and an internet might be any local TCP/IP network, roughly a synonym to intranet. This terminology is still in use, there were no major changes in this field, AFAIK. — Mike Novikoff 22:50, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
• Capitalize the one, true Internet per SMcCandlish and obvious, well-known well, they used to be well known rules of English. There is one and only one Internet, that special arrangement of infrastructure following on ARPANET's development. Sure, there are other internets, but I believe in practice, people rarely talk about them. Most of our articles will be about, relate to, make mention of, or depend on resources available via the Internet. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 20:09, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

  This comment has been responded to in the Discussion subsection: link to response.

• Capitalise. It's odd to me that many people pretend that the Internet is just "an internet". And although technically that's true, the Internet is so much more than that because of its size, the way it is used, its applications (combined with the World Wide Web) and its significance culturally and historically. There is only one Internet. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 13:41, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
• Capitalise when proper name. It can get decapitalised when Internet shall had been renamed Earthnet (proper name), a subnet of Solsysnet (proper name), which shall be a subnet of Galaxynet (the Galaxy, meaning the Milky Way galaxy, proper name, and not a galaxy in general, which shall be of type "galaxynets" and not to be capitalized... ). And that shall be a subnet of the Universenet (to be continued through multiverse(s)).

Then there shall hopefully be a general agreement all mentioned are internets (term, not capitalized).

Of course, when there shall be the Centauralfanet (proper name), which shall be a solsysnet (term), which shall be colliding with existing Solsysnet (proper name); and when there shall be the Andromedanet (proper name), which shall be a galaxynet (term) and colliding with Galaxynet (proper name), our descendants shal continue this discussion about decapitalizing or not decapitalizing Solsysnet and Galaxynet, with all new passion.

They'll hopefully still agree they are all internets (terms), but we might wish to preemptively rename Sol (proper name) and Galaxy (propername) to something else, to prevent this possible future disambiguation problem ;-). --Marjan Tomki SI (talk) 11:31, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

Edit: I saw below mentioned, as the reason to decapitalize, concordance with most common use, and majority of manuals of style (which also seem to follow common use). Much of common (mis)use of language is advertising, which also massively influences general public use off a language. The goal of (much of) advertising seem to be miscommunication (in such a way that the advertiser can't be sued). If you look into amount of different aspects of the SPAMware "industry", that also (used to be, I am retired now and not up to date) significant portion of digital web content, but should we follow that?

I somehow had the idea that the only legitimate reason for trying to regulatie use of a language should be improvement of - when possible, clear and concise - communication. --Marjan Tomki SI (talk) 07:18, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

• Capitalise for sure when it's the name! I can't believe there's even a discussion about this. Masterhatch (talk) 20:33, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Option B (Lowercase always)

• Lower case per Capitalization of Internet#Usage examples. Randy Kryn (talk) 05:19, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
• Lower case per major tech companies (eg Microsoft, Google, Apple) and the majority of major publications (eg the New York Times, the Associated Press, Chicago Style, Guardian, BBC, the Telegraph, Reuters). WP:MOSCAPS says: Only words and phrases that are consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources are capitalized in Wikipedia. The old distinction between internet singular and internet plural is no longer in common use and doesn't matter. Popcornfud (talk) 21:00, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
• Lower case always since I can't see any uses that I would think of as proper names. Like radio, television, and the mail, it's a medium through which businesses and individuals communicate globally. So what? No particular reason to ignore our own style guidelines on this one. Dicklyon (talk) 00:34, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

  This comment has been responded to in the Discussion subsection: link to response.

• Same as "universe". --SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:26, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

  This comment has been responded to in the Discussion subsection: link to response.

• Lower case per Dicklyon. --Khajidha (talk) 15:59, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
• Lower case should be our default for all terms unless there's near unanimous consensus among grammarians and style guides to capitalize. pburka (talk) 04:31, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
• Lower case per popcornfud. We're well behind the curve on this one, and the only reason we still allow capitalization is the inertia from an outdated status quo. ((u|Sdkb)) ^talk 16:31, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
• Lower case I'm from the networking world and know that technically "Internet" is correct to distinguish the world-wide internet from all the others. However, it's a lost cause as explained at Capitalization of Internet and it's time to follow common usage. Johnuniq (talk) 02:10, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

  This comment has been responded to in the Discussion subsection: link to response.

• Lower case, mainly because I just want to annoy User:SMcCandlish. We could also go with camel case: "InterNet". But that would be wrong. Herostratus (talk) 02:27, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
• Lower case always, as that seems to be the most usual way to spell it everywhere else. −Woodstone (talk) 08:33, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
• Lower case always per television, radio etc. Number 57 01:16, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
• Lower case always—per Dicklyon. Tony (talk) 09:48, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
• Lower case - Generally, terms become lowercased more often as they enter common parlance. Internet seems to be following this trend, and its lowercase variant is already becoming the most common. - Novov T C 07:46, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
• Lower case per Dicklyon, Popcornfud and Johnuniq. JG66 (talk) 08:05, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
• Lower case always, just like telephone network, which many years ago was in the same boat. It is now a common noun, and does not need proper noun capitalizing. GenQuest ^"scribble" 13:22, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
• Lower case always: the distinction desired by the OP can be better made by saying "the internet" (global) or "the intranet" or "an intranet" (local, a company intranet for example). Something like "I am connected to an internet") is arguably incorrect usage, although "... an internet connection" is OK. --Mirokado (talk) 15:05, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
• Lower case always - Per Dicklyon, et al. It's always seemed strange to me to see it capitalized on Wikipedia, but rarely. elsewhere. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BilCat (talk • contribs)
• Lower case always. "Only words and phrases that are consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources are capitalized in Wikipedia," according to MOS:CAPS. The evidence presented in this discussion shows a majority of sources no longer capitalize internet, regardless of which sense of the word they are using, and Wikipedia seems to be among the last major websites to do so. -- Calidum 14:01, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
• Lower case always I've never really seen otherwise. Mcguy15 (talk, contribs) 19:11, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
• lower case almost always. I was originally going to argue for upper, but after reading Capitalization of Internet, I changed my mind. Regarding GhostInTheMachine's comment above Wikipedia is not about being correct — it is about reporting the sources, if we are reporting on a fact, we're free to capitalize as we see fit, just as we do with other typographic conventions. For example, if a newspaper sets a headline in all caps, when we cite that article, we convert it title case in the reference. If we're making a direct quote (The Podunk Herald wrote that "Ted Stevens famously compared The Internet to a series of tubes"), then yes, we should reproduce the original source as faithfully as our publishing technology reasonably allows, but that's really the only exception which prompted my "almost always" qualifier. And I'm in complete agreement with SMcCandlish's "Hell no" to per-article consensus. -- RoySmith (talk) 15:26, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

  This comment has been responded to in the Discussion subsection: link to response.

• lower case as AP Stylebook has acknowledged since June 1, 2016 to lowercase not just internet but also web. Its usage today is used beyond the original idea that "the Internet" was the one and only place. We're using parts of an internet within other parts of another... – The Grid (talk) 23:49, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

Option C (Per-article consensus)

• Per-article It really depends on the usage. For example, I do a lot of work on video game articles from an historical perspective and it is important to talk about the arrival of the capital I Internet (the global network), as well as the fact the video game consoles gained access to lower case "i" internet functionality. I would agree that if we are talking in the present tense in all sense, the lower-case "i" internet makes reasonable season, but the historical aspect needs to be considered. Hence, per-article consensus needs to be reviewed. --Masem (t) 04:50, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

  This comment has been responded to in the Discussion subsection: link to response.

• Hell no. This will just cause "slow-editwar" and WP:CIVILPOV activity by obsessives who want to eventually force all uses to lower-case or all of them to upper-case, and we'll have the same squabble break out page after page after page. The second purpose of MoS (after consistent and professional-looking output for readers) is forestalling repetitive, time-wasting editorial disputes over style trivia – not generating a perpetual stream of them. This really has nothing to do with what page the term appears in, but rather the contextual meaning. If what is meant is the the Internet then that is a proper name. If what is meant is internet-technology networking in general, including on an isolated intranet, then lower-case is appropriate. Same goes for [W|w]eb; if you mean the Web, then it's capitalized. If you mean web technology like HTML and CSS and HTTPS and whatever, then lower-case is fine. I.e., distinguishing between name and description, between the global network and the technologies that enable it.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  10:20, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
• Many publications are switching to lowercase as someone mentioned above, so I think that should be the default. Just be consistent within the article. I would only distinguish the two (Internet v. internet) if it is absolutely necessary for the subject matter (I don't know, say talking about the early days of the internet and what people called it). Otherwise the distinction is likely to be distracting. Fredlesaltique (talk) 01:10, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
• Dear God, why? 207.161.86.162 (talk) 06:21, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
• For maximum flexibility. Dhtwiki (talk) 20:38, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

  This comment has been responded to in the Discussion subsection: link to response.

Discussion

People should search before making proposals. 2020, more 2020, more 2020, 2019, 2012/2014, 2010, 2008, 2004 (eesh on that last). --Izno (talk) 16:28, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

Oh, it's the exact same editor as a half dozen of those discussions. Popcornfud, that you're still having this issue and across multiple pages doesn't look too good for you. Please stop pushing it until there is an actual consensus on the point. --Izno (talk) 16:29, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

"Half of a dozen of these discussions"? I think one - maybe two? edit: OK, three (though those were kind of all the same discussion).

I am not the one who is pushing anything; DesertPipeline wants to make this change to an article. Per the lack of consensus I see no reason to deviate from the WP:STATUSQUO. If a consensus emerges to change it (on that article, or at a MoS-wide level) then I will follow that consensus. Popcornfud (talk) 17:03, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

My apologies for starting another discussion on this when there's been so many; Popcornfud did mention that it's been brought up here before but always ended in no consensus. I guess discussing it so soon after the last time is probably not going to result in anything different? Also I'm not sure if I'm at the right indentation level and in the right place here to be replying to User:Izno... sorry, I still don't really know how talk page threading works exactly :( DesertPipeline (talk) 04:47, 18 February 2021 (UTC) Struck last part as I'm now at the right indentation level – I hope :) 05:20, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

Ha, I skimmed the struck-out text and initially misread it as I'm not sure if I'm at the right indignation level ... to be replying. Pelagic ( messages ) – (17:46 Sat 27, AEDT) 06:46, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

• I don't downcase it when I come across the cap, because I don't like complaints; but in my view it should be lowercase; and where some subset of the internet is intended, that should be clear from the context. Few readers appreciate the significance of the I vs i, anyway. Tony (talk) 05:17, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

  Well, it's not that the Internet is "a subset of the internet"; the article Capitalisation of Internet explains it quite well – "the Internet is an internet, but an internet is not the Internet". I do realise that nowadays most people don't care about this sort of thing, but I don't feel like we should lowercase the "I" in a context where it should be capitalised just because that's how most people do it. My opinion on this is that as an encylopedia, which should strive to get things correct as much as possible. To me, it would be like Wikipedia writing "COVID-19" in lowercase simply because most people do that nowadays, and fortunately we aren't doing that. DesertPipeline (talk) 05:26, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

  Just to be sure, even though it says right in the Internet article, an internet is a network of networks. That is important for the scaling of network architectures, such that each host doesn't need to know the path to all others, but just to a router that knows which way to route it. Many large companies have their own private internet, and many are worldwide. Some companies need the security of not connecting their internal internet to the Internet. Many companies will name their internal network after the company. What does seem strange to me is that the Internet doesn't have an actual name other than Internet. Gah4 (talk) 10:04, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

  What does seem strange to me is that the Internet doesn't have an actual name other than Internet. The Internet used to be also called the World Wide Web, but I think that name has fallen out of use a few years ago. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 16:58, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

  No, the Internet and the World Wide Web are two very different things. It is true that there are commentators who lump them together, but they don't understand what either is. The WWW is an application that uses HTTP over IP, and no more the Intenet than Gopher, NNTP or SMTP. Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 18:47, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

• I was actually able to think of a much better reason for capitalisation thanks to Gah4's comment. "Internet", referring to the Internet, is a name; "internet" is a term. Would anyone say that provides a better case for standardising capitalisation? Also, I've added a discussion subheading and a survey subheading. DesertPipeline (talk) 04:47, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

  Addendum: I also have to wonder if the sources that Popcornfud linked which recommend not capitalising the word don't realise that it is a name, rather than simply a term in all cases. I haven't read them though, so I'm just speculating here :) DesertPipeline (talk) 05:01, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

  "the Internet is an internet, but an internet is not the Internet" I don't see how that means that "the Internet" is a proper noun. Seems pretty parallel to the statement that "the atmosphere is an atmosphere, but an atmosphere is not the atmosphere". --Khajidha (talk) 19:30, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

  Indeed, that quote isn't that great, because the Internet is definitely not in the same category as any other internetwork; because of its size, its significance, its everything, it's become a completely unique thing. (That's unlike an atmosphere though, because many planets have an atmosphere and the Earth's isn't that unique.) ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 13:11, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

  Yes. Like Microsoft naming their word processor Word, our favorite internet is named The Internet. It might have had a fancier name, but it seems not. Gah4 (talk) 06:36, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

  And even LibreOffice fell victim: They called theirs "Writer" :) DesertPipeline (talk) 06:42, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

  I also have to wonder if the sources that Popcornfud linked which recommend not capitalising the word don't realise that it is a name, rather than simply a term in all cases. I haven't read them though, so I'm just speculating here

  Yes, the history of the term as a proper noun is discussed in those sources (here are some of them again: NY Times, Wired, New Republic, the Verge).

  I have to say that the fact that you didn't bother to read these - which I provided because you asked me for an explanation - and are now typing things to the effect of "I wonder what those sources arguing against my position say? guess we'll never know!" is sort of causing me to faceplam. Popcornfud (talk) 20:51, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

  I'm sorry, Popcorn :( The reason I didn't read the sources you provided is that I feel paranoid about visiting websites I haven't before – and I know the ones you linked are trustworthy, but my fear is just irrational. I thought you might be frustrated if I said I didn't read them, but I didn't want to act as if I knew – because I don't. I could read them with Lynx, a terminal-based browser, if you'd like me to (although my paranoia is such a problem that I even hesitate to do that, despite the fact that I installed Lynx specifically for situations like this). DesertPipeline (talk) 06:38, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

  DesertPipeline, OK, that sounds tough. If you're curious, I would be happy to summarise what those articles say on your talk page, just let me know. Popcornfud (talk) 10:44, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

  If you don't mind doing that, then sure, and thank you :) DesertPipeline (talk) 12:48, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

• Lower case per Capitalization of Internet#Usage examples. Randy Kryn (talk) 05:19, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

  Hi, would you mind putting this in the Survey subsection above and adding (B) to the beginning of your comment? Thanks, DesertPipeline (talk) 05:28, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

  OK, added it there as well. Randy Kryn (talk) 05:40, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

  Thanks :) I also decided to add subheadings for each option so hopefully things will be more readable. I moved your comment to the corresponding subheading (Option B). DesertPipeline (talk) 05:44, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

• Pinging everyone who participated in the discussion so far (except Gah4, because I mentioned it on their talk page and was intending to do that for the other participants but then realised it was way less efficient than just doing it here and using pings): User:Izno, User:Tony1, User:Tenryuu, User:Chatul (I think that's everyone). If you don't mind, can you add which option you're in support of to the survey? :) If you already gave your explanation in this section, you can just say something like "see my comment in the discussion section". I just want it to be clearer for whoever closes this what option each participant was for :) Thanks, DesertPipeline (talk) 05:12, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

• Talking to someone who actually wrote the book about Ethernet (which is also capitalized as a proper noun), it seems that no-one thought about naming it before it was too late. Gah4 (talk) 06:01, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

  Ethernet is a trademark. Dicklyon (talk) 00:38, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

  According to the article on Ethernet, it seems that it used to be a trademark, but it isn't any more :) DesertPipeline (talk) 05:55, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

  Interesting. So I guess we'd have to say it's capped because it was a trademark. Dicklyon (talk) 01:03, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

  Presumably, yes :) In that case, though, there's no such thing as "ethernet" (I think?) – i.e. there isn't "Ethernet" (a single concept) and "ethernet" (a broader concept) :) DesertPipeline (talk) 05:03, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

• Lower case always since I can't see any uses that I would think of as proper names. Like radio, television, and the mail, it's a medium through which businesses and individuals communicate globally. So what? No particular reason to ignore our own style guidelines on this one. Dicklyon (talk) 00:34, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

  I wouldn't really say that radio, television, and mail are good comparisons – they're not words that can either be a term or a name. In this case, though, "Internet" is the name for the global internet we're using right now – and "internet" is just a term meaning "interconnected network". As someone (me? I can't remember) said previously: "The Internet is an internet, but an internet is not the Internet" :) DesertPipeline (talk) 06:25, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

  I do understand that you want it to be a name. But I disagree that it is ever that. Dicklyon (talk) 06:49, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

  I'll be honest: I don't understand why you think it isn't a name. I'd like to know why you think this way. Do you think you could explain to me? Thank you, DesertPipeline (talk) 10:14, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

  And I don't understand why you think it is. A lot of things have names, like the Internet Engineering Task Force, Internet Protocol, ARPANET, but this thing we call the internet is just the agglomeration of everyone's networks. Nobody named it; they just took to capping it to indicate that if you're not on it, maybe you're on some other internet. That's a use of caps that's outside the uses that WP's and many others' style guides recommend. Dicklyon (talk) 04:37, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

  Well, I'll admit... I thought I read somewhere that someone had officially named it Internet, but... apparently that's not the case, at least according to the article on Internet :) Still though, language is just something we invented of course, so we could say "its name is Internet now because people call it that, even though it wasn't officially named that". Then again, maybe humanity should have a vote to decide on an official name, like... well, I don't even know what it could be called, but I guess it'd be less confusing if it wasn't called "Internet" :) DesertPipeline (talk) 05:38, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

  Well, I think humanity did take a vote. Or least the part of humanity that issue style guidelines has pretty much converted on lowercase. Dicklyon (talk) 05:41, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

  I'd argue that the most likely reason style guides usually recommend lowercase nowadays is that they don't realise that it is a name (or at least that some people consider it a name)? I'm not sure though :) DesertPipeline (talk) 05:49, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

  You don't think they looked long and hard at the issue before changing their guidance? They just don't "realise that it is a name"? Yeah, that must be it; probably a bunch of new grads running that department now. Dicklyon (talk) 06:22, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

  ...But would you be so shocked if that was the case? ;) DesertPipeline (talk) 06:29, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

• Per-article It really depends on the usage. For example, I do a lot of work on video game articles from an historical perspective and it is important to talk about the arrival of the capital I Internet (the global network), as well as the fact the video game consoles gained access to lower case "i" internet functionality. I would agree that if we are talking in the present tense in all sense, the lower-case "i" internet makes reasonable season, but the historical aspect needs to be considered. Hence, per-article consensus needs to be reviewed. --Masem (t) 04:50, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

  If I'm reading this right, I think you may actually be in favour of option A? I agree with you that it should be capitalised only when referring to the Internet and uncapitalised when referring to any other internet :) DesertPipeline (talk) 05:47, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

  I think he's saying that there may be historical contexts in which that distinction might still need to be represented via caps, but that most current stuff not. I'm not sure I get why, though. I don't know what video game consoles gained access to lower case "i" internet functionality means. Dicklyon (talk) 06:07, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

  Not to suggest that I can read minds (that would probably make life a little easier :D) but I think what's meant is that video game consoles gained access to internets in general – i.e., any interconnected network :) Maybe you're starting to see why some consider the distinction between capitalised I and uncapitalised I important now? ;)^{[note 1]} DesertPipeline (talk) 06:13, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

  I didn't say anything about it not being important; just not capitalization relevant. But what internets did videogames have access to? Dicklyon (talk) 06:20, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

  Well, any :) If a computing device can connect to a network, then it can connect to any internet, including the Internet, although some manufacturers of video game consoles might try to prevent connection to internets they don't authorise – P.S. I'm not an authority on this subject if it wasn't already obvious, so my explanation isn't very good, sorry ;) DesertPipeline (talk) 06:25, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

• Same as "universe". --SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:26, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

  I'd say that the example of "universe" is another one that doesn't really apply here – it's not both a name and a term: it's just a term :) DesertPipeline (talk) 06:29, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

  I agree. But some want it to be a name, too. NASA style guide and many others say not to cap it, but there are outliers (billions and billions...). Dicklyon (talk) 06:57, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

  To be honest, I wouldn't really mind either way myself – I mentioned this in the On Rainbows talk page, but if there are other universes then I feel like having a distinction between "the Universe" (ours) and "a universe" (any other universe) could be useful. DesertPipeline (talk) 07:01, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

• Capitalize in reference to the Internet; lowercase when referring to generic technologies (usuable on an intranet). ... — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 10:14, 22 February 2021 (UTC); revised 10:30, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

  One quick question SMcCandlish: Is it then correct to say "Web page" (as opposed to "web page")? When I see "web page" I usually change it to "Web page" – although I do feel like "webpage" sounds better :) DesertPipeline (talk) 12:51, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

  The fully compounded "webpage" has been the most common since the early 2000s, maybe even the late 1990s. I don't think anyone's arguing for retaining the capital letter when it's used in a combining form like this. If one were to write it as "Web page", then the "W" would arguably belong, but this seems a bit archaic at this point (in Internet time, anyway). Same with "website" and "Web site", etc. Various terms like "web development" can probably go lower-case, because they are about web[site] technology in general, and equally pertain to intranet websites, not just the [World Wide] Web. Used in a generic enough way, even "web page" and "web site" would work for that reason, though again "website" and "webpage" seem to be the dominant spellings now.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:29, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

  S, I never proposed "death" as the alternative, but it seems to me that treating "Internet" as a proper name is out of step with most modern style guides, so it behooves us to discuss when/whether to re-align with them. Dicklyon (talk) 01:01, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

  I never proposed "death" as the alternative – But those of us following this thread are openly pining for it. Oh sweet release! EEng 04:29, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

  Admit it, EEng – you're just envious that I made a joke in this section before you, aren't you? ;) DesertPipeline (talk) 05:05, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

  Au contraire. It delights me to see other editors taking up the jokester's banner. EEng 05:56, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

  Another task ticked off the bucket list – "Y Have work approved by EEng" :) DesertPipeline (talk) 06:06, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

  Congrats. All I got from him was some pix to mock my verb choice; et tu. Dicklyon (talk) 01:54, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

  Sorry, but I have standards to uphold. EEng 07:35, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

  Dicklyon, I seem to recall you being among those of us who regularly point out that "is a proper name" and "is capitalized in some proportion of publications" is not a 1:1 relationship. We know news-writing style in particular takes a large number of liberties with capitalization (mostly dropping it at every chance, even when the results are confusing, e.g. "Nato" and "the Aids virus", and lately "Covid-19" or even just "covid"). It's one thing for a eponym to lose capitalization when it becomes "divorced" from the namesake ("our platonic relationship", "draconian workplace policies", "french fries"), but nothing like that has happened here. The Internet is no less the Internet now than before, and if anything it's more: more a prominent part of our lives, and more the Internet, as it grows to integrate with our phones, our watches, even our refrigerators and doorbells. I'll repeat what I've said in several other variants of this debate: if we decide this has somehow become "the internet", then we're also going to have to down-case Internet of Things. This is a very good example of why not to trust newspapers when it comes to style questions. They'll happily drop a capital letter from a common proper name, to save a sliver of typing time, then insist on capitalizing something simply because it seems new and important (MOS:SIGCAPS). Can't have it both ways. When the very same sources directly contract themselves on whether to capitalize [I|i]nternet, and do it only when used as a modifier (i.e., the exact opposite of actual trends in English usage, which is to start decapitalizing modifier usage, which may or may not then spread lower-case to the noun form), then they are not reliable sources for the style question.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:40, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

  I agree completely with SMc here honestly – just because other style guides are getting it wrong it doesn't mean we should follow in their footsteps ;) DesertPipeline (talk) 03:38, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

• Someone mentioned universe, which it seems is not capitalized and not a proper name. There might be some astronomers who disagree, (that is, that we live in one particular Universe), but it reminded me of Earth and Mars, which it seems are proper names, though earth (synonym for dirt) is not. It might be that mars is a synonym for dirt if you are Mars. I don't see any discussion for capitalization in talk:Earth, but instead whether it is Earth or the Earth. Somehow that question was avoided here. In any case, I still believe that Internet is the proper name for out favorite internet, like Earth for our favorite planet. Gah4 (talk) 02:34, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

  Sometimes I see "earth" when it really means "Earth" (in an article where it was capitalised before) and I usually correct that. I've heard that in casual usage, people will just type "the sun", "the earth", "the moon" (etc), but weirdly enough I don't think that's done in the case of the other planet/celestial body names. I wonder why that is? P.S. I fixed the indentation of your comment :) Regards, DesertPipeline (talk) 03:21, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

  "Sometimes I see ..." – Yes, we know. There is not a single line-item in MoS (or any other style guide) that you can't find some people ignoring (on-site or in RS material). That really has no bearing on the matter. MoS is not about what "is" "correct" (English doesn't have a set of hard rules governing it); it's about what to do on WP, so that we have consistent and semi-formal output for readers, and a reduction internally in tedious strife over style trivia.

  "I wonder why that is?" It's because "earth", "moon", and "sun" have many figural usages ("to till the earth", "When the moon hits your eye / Like a big pizza pie", "shining in the sun") and pre-date common understanding of celestial bodies. Most of our other astronomical bodies were named much later, after thing that were in and of themselves proper names (mostly mythological figures), and do not have much in the way of figural/metaphoric usage.
   — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:23, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

• I'm going to do some refactoring with the discussion. The intent was that the Discussion subsection would be for any replies, including to replies in the survey section, for better readability, but even I forgot to do that at first :) I'm going to try and organise all the (initial) replies to bullet points in the Survey section by time posted when putting them in this section. Someone have a mop ready, because I can't guarantee that this will go smoothly... but I'm going to try my best :) DesertPipeline (talk) 06:17, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

  Y Refactor complete. If anyone else wants to check to make sure everything that existed before still exists now, I'd be grateful, because this stuff makes my head hurt :) DesertPipeline (talk) 07:04, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

• Lower case I'm from the networking world and know that technically "Internet" is correct to distinguish the world-wide internet from all the others. However, it's a lost cause as explained at Capitalization of Internet and it's time to follow common usage. Johnuniq (talk) 2:10 am, Today (UTC+0)

  User:Johnuniq: I'm curious as to why you think it's a lost cause. Could you elaborate on that? As said before, many people get it wrong nowadays, but at Wikipedia, we don't have to get it wrong as well. In my opinion, considering people are getting it wrong consistently nowadays, I almost feel like it's Wikipedia's duty to get it right – an encylopedia is supposed to be educational, after all, and we could induce some positive change by capitalising it when it should be capitalised in all cases, perhaps. Regards, DesertPipeline (talk) 09:09, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

  User:Johnuniq: ...I really seem to be having trouble getting pings to work lately :) At least, the notification system isn't telling me it sent. I hope it isn't silently doing it so I'm double-pinging people. DesertPipeline (talk) 09:13, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

  By lost cause I mean that the tide of common usage has risen and trying to oppose it will not be successful and will only make us look like pedants. For readers, there is no difference between Internet and internet except that the former looks like someone inadvertently pressed the Shift key in the middle of a sentence. Johnuniq (talk) 09:58, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

  User:Johnuniq: Would you disagree that if we don't take that attitude, there's still hope? Think about it this way: If we do nothing, then yes, the correct capitalisation for the Internet will probably cease to exist at some point. However, if we do do something, then there is at least a chance that things can change for the better. Even if it's a small chance, I think it's worth it, especially considering it requires little effort on our part. DesertPipeline (talk) 10:26, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

  Wikipedia is not here to right great wrongs. Popcornfud (talk) 13:54, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

• Comment: Microsoft doesn't capitalize [1]. Nor does Google [2]. Nor does Apple [3]. I guess all these companies are wrong too - it's up to Wikipedia to lead the way now! Popcornfud (talk) 14:42, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

  User:Popcornfud: Come now, you must recognise why "everyone else is doing it" is a poor reason :) Just remember that no matter how popular something is, that doesn't always make it correct or right. (The world is in a lot of trouble because there are many people doing things that are popular but ethically wrong, usually in order to make money.) Also, in response to your above comment where you mention WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS: There is a difference between "righting great wrongs" and "not making things worse" :) The same problem applies in another area that I've been trying to deal with: Wikipedia has a lot of loaded or confusing words on it (such as "consumer" and "intellectual property") – my opinion there is the same as here, which is that while we're not here to right great wrongs, we can at least not make things worse. If a capitalised I in Internet – referring to the Internet – is indeed correct, which according to Johnuniq, it is – I'm from the networking world and know that technically "Internet" is correct to distinguish the world-wide internet from all the others. – then I really think we should be following what's correct, rather than what's popular. Although I do want to ask: In your view, is "Capitalised I for the Internet is correct" not a factual statement, but an opinion? I might be repeating myself in a sense here... my apologies if so, my brain is not good at keeping track of so many things :) DesertPipeline (talk) 03:34, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

  There is really no "fact" when it comes to what is "correct" in language. The closest you'll get is the fact of what's more commonly used or not, or what's considered standard or non-standard by big-cheese publishing houses et al.

  "Everyone else is doing it" is the perfect reason, though. As others say: Wikipedia follows, it doesn't lead. Wikipedia reflects sources. Wikipedia has no responsibility to uphold your preferred version of the universe. And as I said right at the start of this discussion, we have a policy for this: WP:MOSCAPS: Only words and phrases that are consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources are capitalized in Wikipedia. In other words: only capitalize if "everyone else is doing it". Popcornfud (talk) 12:09, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

  User:Popcornfud: Well, the lead of MOSCAPS also says primarily needed for proper names. The lead of Proper noun (which Proper name is a redirect to) says A proper noun is a noun that identifies a single entity and is used to refer to that entity – does that not apply to Internet, since it's a single entity? It goes on to say as distinguished from a common noun, which is a noun that refers to a class of entities which applies to internet. By the way, I would like to ask, what is your reasoning behind wanting to do this because everyone else is doing it? Regards, DesertPipeline (talk) 12:23, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

  The entire point of this disagreement is that most style guides no longer consider it a proper noun, so you saying "but it's a proper noun" misses the point. As for what is your reasoning behind wanting to do this because everyone else is doing it, I just explained that. WP:MOSCAPS: Only words and phrases that are consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources are capitalized in Wikipedia. In other words, "Do what most reliable sources do" - even if you think it's wrong - sorry. Popcornfud (talk) 12:30, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

  User:Popcornfud: I just don't personally believe that what is and what isn't a proper noun can be defined by popular opinion, though. Surely it is or it isn't, regardless of what people think, based on what the article on proper nouns says? DesertPipeline (talk) 12:40, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

• However, Wikipedia is not about being correct — it is about reporting the sources — GhostInTheMachine ^{talk to me} 13:24, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

  User:GhostInTheMachine: Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm not really sure that applies here. We can obviously report that some people don't capitalise the I when referring to the Internet according to the sources, and that some do, but when we're just referring to it generally, shouldn't we be capitalising the I if that's the correct way to do it? :) DesertPipeline (talk) 03:44, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

• Joking moved out of the !vote section (with copy of what it's a response to), per user talk request:

  • Lower case, mainly because I just want to annoy User:SMcCandlish. We could also go with camel case: "InterNet". But that would be wrong. Herostratus (talk) 02:27, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

    Yeah, all Apple fans know it has to be "iNternet".  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  09:42, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

• For maximum flexibility. Dhtwiki (talk) 20:38, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

  If we wanted "maximum flexibility", WP would have no style guide, no article title policy, no naming-conventions guidelines, not citation formatting guideline. The community emphatically does not want "maximum flexibility".  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  13:26, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

  The community also doesn't believe in taking things out of context, or we'd be restating the obvious ad nauseum. Dhtwiki (talk) 22:44, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

• Can we close this yet? Popcornfud (talk) 17:06, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

How about now? It's been weeks since any new votes or discussion. Popcornfud (talk) 14:24, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

• I want to mention that none of those opposing capitalising Internet as a proper noun are disputing that it is a proper noun. As I said to Popcornfud previously, "popular opinion cannot take away a word's status as a proper noun" (not a direct quote).

  1. Does "Internet" refer to a single entity? – Yes

  2. Is a proper noun something that refers to a single entity? – Yes

  Unless these can be refuted, then for what reason should we not capitalise it in reference to the Internet, other than "to conform"? Should we really "conform" with things that can be proven to be wrong? Whether or not something is a proper noun is a fact, not an opinion. DesertPipeline (talk) 03:17, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

  1) Uh, yes, we are disputing that it is a proper noun. You must have missed several people's points. The one I find most relevant is the comparison of "the internet" to "the airwaves" or "the press". 2) Your illustration would also apply to the word "atmosphere". 3) I'm not sure it was ever really a proper noun in the first place. More like a simple emphasizing for importance, like "That's Jimmy Wales over there, but not THE Jimmy Wales". --Khajidha (talk) 14:43, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

  User:Khajidha: 1. In what way are "the airwaves" and "the press" relevant to the context of "the Internet"? There isn't "an airwave" and "the Airwave"; nor is there "a press" and "the Press". Internet, when referring to the Internet, is a proper noun because it refers to a single entity – the Internet. There is no other internet like the Internet, and therefore it refers to a singular thing.

  2. "an atmosphere" (referring possibly to another planet's) and "the atmosphere" don't really need that distinction right now because the vast majority of us are on Earth.

  3. It was understood to be a proper noun when people understood that "internet" means "interconnected network". Because there are multiple, but one is the "main" one, it's useful to have a distinction. It's just a shame a name wasn't chosen that didn't have this problem. Because that's not the case though, we should be capitalising the name of the Internet, which is "Internet", when we refer to it. DesertPipeline (talk) 09:52, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

  1) This might be the nucleus of the disagreement. The point I was making was that "the internet" is a medium, like "the press" or "the airwaves". You seem to characterize "the Internet" as the actual linkages. 2) Even on one planet we have the atmospheres of each city or even each building. We can even have atmospheres in chambers completely cut off from "the atmosphere". 3) You made my point for me. "The Internet" isn't a name, it's a simple emphasis. This emphasis is more commonly made these days by speaking of "the global internet" as opposed to, for example, a "corporate internet" that only links computers within a single company. --Khajidha (talk) 15:40, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

  I would note that there are other "spheres" that, unlike "atmosphere", have a unique referent but are still not capitalised (noosphere, anthroposphere). —Nizolan ^{(talk · c.)} 17:38, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

  User:Khajidha: You seem to characterize "the Internet" as the actual linkages. That's not what I meant. The Internet is the name for the most common public interconnected network as of 2021. Press, airwaves and atmosphere aren't cases where one usage is a common noun and the other is a proper noun. "internet" is a common noun but "Internet" is a proper noun. If we don't capitalise Internet when referring to the Internet, then essentially we're saying "well even though this is grammatically correct, we're not going to do it because others don't". Appeal to popularity is a fallacy for a reason – because no matter how many people happen to do something, that doesn't automatically make it right. (See also: Smoking, drinking, developing non-libre software.) If we were just going to go along with what the masses do, we wouldn't even have our own manual of style – we'd just use one that already exists. DesertPipeline (talk) 03:58, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

  You keep saying that it is a proper noun, but it just doesn't scan that way to me. I just cannot see a difference between saying "the Internet", meaning the world-wide one that is most important, and "the car", meaning my personal car because it is the most important. --Khajidha (talk) 17:33, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

  But there is only one Internet, that unique, special project developed out of ARPANET. The car you drive is just some car; it's non-unique (there may have been tens of thousands of that model produced in the very same color, styling, etc.). If you name it something, like "Khajidha's Krazy Kar", well then you can capitalize it, because it refers to a unique and special vehicle. But don't be disappointed when the neighbors just refer to it as Khajidha's heap (or Ford or blue car or 318i or whatever) because you're not famous enogh for folks to recognize your car's uniqueness. The Mackinac Bridge is a particular, unique structure (like the Internet); a bridge is just one of a kind of item, like an internet. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 19:55, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

  Yes, "the Mackinac Bridge" is a proper noun. But "the Bridge"isn't. If you can figure out which one is analogous to "the Internet", you will see why that isn't a proper noun.--Khajidha (talk) 20:15, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

  I have figured it out, which is–surprise!–why I brought the examples. Proper nouns: the Mackinac Bridge, the Internet, Khajidha, Wikipedia, the Earth. Common nouns: a bridge, an internet, (an or the) editor, encyclopedia, some earth. I don't know if you mistyped, but I didn't use "the Bridge" with a capital letter, so I don't know if you're trying to make a point there. I said "a bridge" and I meant "a bridge". — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 21:13, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

  Nope. You completely missed the point. Bridge and internet are both common nouns. Used by themselves, neither is a proper noun. And just capitalizing them doesn't change that. Common nouns are capitalized as part of specified names like Mackinac Bridge. --Khajidha (talk) 22:52, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

  User:Khajidha: Internet is a common noun, yes. But it is also a proper noun, because the name of the global internet commonly used in 2021 is "Internet". If there was a bridge and it was simply called "Bridge", would you argue not to capitalise the B because bridge is also a common noun? It doesn't matter that it's also a common noun – they decided to call the global internet as commonly used in 2021 "Internet". Names have their first letter capitalised, whether or not the name also counts as a common noun if uncapitalised. DesertPipeline (talk) 03:48, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

  But you're ignoring the fact that many sources and many authorities have decided that it's not a proper name. Just because you consider it to be one doesn't mean that Wikipedia should. We tend to go the other way, and use lowercase when caps are not necessary, and the large number of sources and authorities who say caps are not necessary here make your opinion on the matter rather un-weighty. You claim "they decided"; but who is they? Dicklyon (talk) 04:29, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

  If there were a bridge simply called "Bridge", it wouldn't have a proper name, either. It's that simple. --Khajidha (talk) 04:43, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

  User:Dicklyon: Popular opinion cannot decide whether something is or is not a name. It is a name; someone decided that. I don't know who, but that's irrelevant. We cannot change that.

  User:Khajidha: Why not? If the people who constructed it decided its name would be "Bridge", then that is its name. You can't refute something like that. You could say "well, that shouldn't be its name", but that changes nothing. It is its name. DesertPipeline (talk) 07:07, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

  You guys are claiming someone created it and named it? But can't say who? How quaint. Dicklyon (talk) 15:21, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

  User:Dicklyon: I can't see how knowing who named it is relevant to the discussion of whether or not it is a name. What about place names in different countries? If they're old names, we don't know who named them – we just know that is their name. The same applies here. DesertPipeline (talk) 03:39, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

  Yeah, not relevant because nobody named it, as you seemed to claim above. Dicklyon (talk) 03:47, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

  User:Dicklyon: If nobody named it, then why does it have a name? DesertPipeline (talk) 04:58, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

  If it has a name, please tell us what it is, because"the Internet" isn't one. --Khajidha (talk) 12:29, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

  User:Khajidha: In your opinion Internet is not (or should not be) a name; however, opinion does not override reality. DesertPipeline (talk) 04:51, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

  Seems more like you are the one trying to put your opinion above the reality of how the English language has always worked. --Khajidha (talk) 14:14, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

  Addendum: Also, does this mean that you don't consider "Moon", "Sun" and "Earth" names because they are also common nouns when uncapitalised? DesertPipeline (talk) 12:27, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

  Yep, it does. (Although the rationale is that the uncapitalized form is the common noun for the type, not just any common noun.)--Khajidha (talk) 13:57, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

  User:Khajidha: I don't know what you mean by that. Please can you rephrase? DesertPipeline (talk) 05:02, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

• ... people rarely talk about them. ... — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 20:09, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
  Yes, and you see, the very word "internets" is nowadays considered a Bushism by the general public. So, in a way, it now has even less to do with the Internet. — Mike Novikoff 20:10, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

• If we're making a direct quote (The Podunk Herald wrote that "Ted Stevens famously compared The Internet to a series of tubes"), then yes, we should reproduce the original source as faithfully as our publishing technology reasonably allows, but that's really the only exception which prompted my "almost always" qualifier. (...) -- RoySmith (talk) 15:26, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
  @RoySmith: per MOS:PMC, it is okay to silently correct minor spelling errors in quotations. So if the result of this discussion is that "internet" is correct, then it's okay to also correct the quotations (unless that change also changes the meaning of the quote somehow). ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 16:33, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

• I'll add my 20 cents here, too, to my argumentation for my vote above.

  @changing direct quotes: it is inadmisive to change quotes in such a way, that changes quotes meaning. Where manuals of style etc. allow or encourage that, MOS-es etc. should be reconsidered, and changed, not followed.

  @internets, intranets, Internet: There are company (etc.) internets (term), that are also global, composed of interconnected (used to be by various types of dedicated links) intranets, which are by design trying not being part of Internet accessible to general public (and malware). When we discuss history of these technologies, internetworking without Internet used to be a lot more common before, much of it for security and reliability reasons. Now VPN tunnels through Internet are often used, often not because they would be more secure, but because of price and better hw redundancy.

  Now go try to teach fresh young to-become-network-engineers (from extremely-smart-but-not-yet-very wise child game-enthusiasts) OSI model and related science and technology with all terminology in the literature used, decapitalized. Try to teach them about systematically preventing vulnerabilities (make them keep Murphy's law in mind's eye) of these technologies, without letting them know (and understand thoroughly) the examples what happened before some of those were fixed. And think of how you could explain those examples in an understandable way without the ability to be concise, which removing distinction between similarly sounding and/or written terms like proposed here, would reduce.

  Please try to look at the problem not from the aspect of (an expert narrow speciality) teacher, but from the aspect of an (extremely smart and interrested) novice student. I learned much form bad teachers - about how not to teach. I used to be an expert, but tried as much as possible to stay aware of the point of view of a novice, to a point to systematically try not only to remember, but also document a novices point of view whenever I was introduced at something significantly new. It happened often, because I was called often to try to help troubleshoot widely different things, and insisted of always being introduced to field of the problem as a novice to it. Often (even usually) significant part of the problem to troubleshoot was miscommunication between novices and experts, and even between different experts, without the experts being aware of that, and without most novices daring to speak up about it.

  Conclusion: I see WP primary as a tool for users, and secondary to be editor friendly. WP policies should help with both aspects. Following them should reduce clashes between editors about what contents should be included and how it should be presented, and ease up their resolution if they emerge.

  IMO Primary goal should be to help contents be usefull to the user, and beneficial to humanity in general. Policies should help achieving that goal, and if policies are found to have evolved in such a way the usefullness of contents of WP diminishes, they hvvr"however"? should be reconsidered, no matter how longstanding, not followed and enforced just becouse they exist.

  I see changes that make things harder to be explained concisely adverse to the primary WP goal mentioned above, and anything involved in promoting that trend (in or out of WP) in serious need to be reconsidered from that point of view. --Marjan Tomki SI (talk) 07:21, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

  Your post incisively summarizes the discussion so far. EEng 15:43, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

• This section was archived yesterday by a bot. I think if nobody else has anything to add it might be time to request closure. DesertPipeline (talk) 11:44, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

  Maybe the archiving interval should be increased from 30 days. 60 days? -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:10, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

  User:Michael Bednarek: That might be a good idea. Also, I indented your comment as I presume you were intending to reply to my last bullet-pointed comment. If that isn't the case, please feel free to change it back and remove one of the colons from the beginning of my response. DesertPipeline (talk) 12:24, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

  Before you close, I'd like to add a bit I encountered lately (doing something else).

Several contributors supporting option B (allways lowercase) claimed relevant publishers never use Internet (capitalized) to differentiate from inter-network. I offer the link to Install and configure IP version 6 in Windows Server 2003 Enterprise Server at Microsoft showing otherwise. The article there was last updated 09/25/2020, so it's also not quite antediluvian contents.

The summary outlines differences between IPv4 and IPv6, and systematically capitalizes Internet to differentiate from "inter-network" as a set of technologies to connect networks, and it is imperative that a novice troubleshooter understands the difference, so it is there made more visible by both different capitalization and spelling (regardless of any manual of style).

Furthermore, IETF (probably the authority on that field, including terminology) seem to systematically use Internet (capitalized, suposedly proper name) in current contents of their web pages, too. --Marjan Tomki SI (talk) 13:55, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

I can't seem to find any guidance on the appropriate way to style footers for collages, such as those found on city pages like Washington, D.C. I assume that either "clockwise, from top" or "From top, left to right" is acceptable. But should it be From top, left to right:, (From top, left to right)[line break], or something else? Should entries be separated by commas or by ((hlist))? This seems like something we might want to agree on just for consistency. ((u|Sdkb)) ^talk 23:38, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

I did bring up a simliar question [4] about whether caption 'pointers' like "(left)" "(pictured)", etc should be in italics but it seemed MOS did not have an answer.  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 00:19, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

...because, indeed, it's not clear is needs to have an answer. (I actually think it does need an answer, but until it becomes clear that it needs an answer, it's premature to formulate it. Sort of, when the student is ready the master will appear, some shit like that.) EEng 03:14, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Hmm, interesting. The advice that it's not worth the drama is worth considering, although sometimes this stuff is easier than we might expect. ((u|Sdkb)) ^talk 01:08, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

• something we might want to agree on just for consistency – No, no, a thousand times NO. "Just for consistency" is the weakest of arguments for adding a rule to MOS, and it's very seldom sufficient. Different articles, different collages, may have different needs. Let a thousand flowers bloom in the captions of various articles, tended and nurtured by the editors of those articles. See WP:MOSBLOAT. EEng 03:14, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

  @EEng: Fair point. Consider this idea withdrawn. I would still appreciate if editors have any thoughts about what they personally prefer. ((u|Sdkb)) ^talk 16:21, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

  Collages usually have four to six images; so long as the descriptions are concise, keeping it in prose form looks good to me. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 16:24, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

• So the tl;dr here seems to be leave it up to editorial discretion to be determined by consensus on a case-by-case basis. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 16:11, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

  We could possibly add that somewhere in the MOS, no? I.e. either way is acceptable as long as it is consistent throughout the whole article.  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 16:25, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

  MOSBLOAT MOSBLOAT MOSBLOAT MOSBLOAT MOSBLOAT MOSBLOAT MOSBLOAT MOSBLOAT MOSBLOAT! What problem or issue (real, not hypothetical) does this solve? EEng 19:25, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

  @EEng: I could not find a shortcut to MOS:BLOAT (guessing you meant WP:BLOAT?). There have been a few occassions where I wish I had something like this added to MOS so I can cite when editors revert the italic style the other way which would be helpful. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 19:33, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

  It's my Pulitzer-nominated essay WP:MOSBLOAT. (The "Closely related principles" section is SMcCandlish's.) EEng 02:18, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

  @EEng: Ah I see thanks. But do you see what I mean in this case it may be good to have brief mention that italics or no italics is alright. Nice to be able to quickly cite MOS in an occassion like this [5] where an editor may not be aware that either way is fine. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 19:09, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

  I do see, but if we say that, then "You can do it either way" itself becomes a guideline. What MOS is silent on, it is silent on, and we need to keep it that way or we have just another form of MOSBLOAT. To be a broken record: unless you can show me that substantial editor time is being wasted because of the lack of a guideline (even a guideline saying "You can do it either way"), I'm going to stubbornly resist adding anything to MOS. Think of me as the boy with his finger in the dike. EEng 23:13, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

  That'd be nice, as otherwise someone else is likely to come back asking again at some point. Another place we could put it is the documentation for ((Multiple image)); I'll do that. ((u|Sdkb)) ^talk 17:02, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

  Well, like I've said, I think this is the sort of thing that probably could stand being standardized, but there needs to be a critical mass of trouble that will be avoided in the future in order to make such an exercise worthwhile, and to act as grist for the discussion mill. EEng 19:28, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

I am trying to mediate a dispute about what style of letters to use for native names in a non-Latin script, in particular in Arabic. I can't find a section in the MOS that addresses this question. Where in the MOS would there be guidance on what style of letters (that is, what fonts) to use for the native Arabic names of places and people whose native names are in Arabic? Robert McClenon (talk) 18:56, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

If it makes a difference, I believe the dispute is over non-Arabic languages that use Arabic script. Sorry to be pedantic, but there's a chance it'll matter since Nastaliq script is more commonly used in the languages of Afghanistan/Iran than in the Arabic language. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 19:48, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Don't worry about being pedantic. Here at MOS, pedantry is our stock in trade. EEng 20:10, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Full transparency: 20% of me was sorry for being pedantic and 80% of me was excited. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 20:12, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Correction noted. The question is about languages other than the Arabic languages that are normally written in the Arabic alphabet, just as many Indo-European languages, such as English, besides Latin are normally written using the Latin alphabet. Yes, User:Firefangledfeathers knows what the dispute is. Where dpes or should the MOS address the question of what font or fonts should be used for non-Latin representations of the native forms of foreign names? Either the appropriate section of the MOS addresses the issue, or the appropriate section of the MOS should be developed. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:36, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

The MOS is pedantic in its own way, so that it excludes other styles of pedantry. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:36, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Most browsers and operating systems will see your text as Unicode characters and then try to display it in the current font. If a character is not present in that font then the system will hunt for the most similar font on your device that does have that character. If it still can't find a font containing that character then you will see a small rectangle.

If you instead try to declare a particular font then it will try to use that font. But if the user doesn't have that font then it will do the above searching anyway. So there's no need to worry about it. Declaring the specific font just clutters up the wiki mark-up in the article for no real benefit.

Just type it in and the system will work it out for you. For proof, find an article with many language links on the left. Right click and view the page source. You will see many non-Latin languages with no particular font selected. It just works.  Stepho  talk  02:17, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

User:Stepho - Thank you for the general advice about using fonts for non-Latin alphabets. That is probably helpful to someone who is trying to add to an article. That wasn't my question. My question was about whether the MOS says anything about a dispute between two other editors about what font to display non-Latin letters in. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:31, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Perhaps I'm missing something. If we don't need to specify a font at all then surely there is no dispute to worry about. Can you point us to where the dispute is?  Stepho  talk  11:35, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

I don't see any sections about the use of either the Arabic alphabet or expanded forms of the Arabic alphabet. Is that because there are no sections, or am I missing something? Robert McClenon (talk) 05:31, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

MOS:FONTFAMILY might be relevant here. pburka (talk) 17:28, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Thank you. I will try to explain, User:Stepho-wrs, User:Pburka. The dispute is currently at DRN, the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard, and it is font-warring about articles related to Afghanistan. One user objects to the use of the Nastaliq font. What I would like is a guideline that says that the Nastaliq and Naskh fonts are permitted. Otherwise resolving the dispute comes down to saying not to be disruptive, and if necessary invoking discretionary sanctions, which would be an ugly way to resolve an ugly dispute. Is there any guideline that says either what fonts are permitted, or that says that font-warring is not a good idea? If there is an MOS page about the Arabic script in general, we could put something there, but I don't see anything about the Arabic script. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:34, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

The MOS is quite clear that you shouldn't override the default font family. pburka (talk) 00:40, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Ah, I understand a bit better now. The choice is to force the article to render with the font Nastaliq (eg کابل ), or the font Naskh (eg کابل‎ ) or the default font chosen by the viewer's browser (eg کابل ). On the face of it, they want their choice for aesthetic reasons - it looks prettier to their eyes. Kind of like someone preferring Calibri vs Times new Roman whenever British town names are mentioned. The downside of an editor forcing a font is that all readers no longer have a choice - they get the editor's choice regardless. If no font is forced, then the reader's browser can choose the font - including the reader's option of custom CSS styles. MOS:FONTFAMILY says don't force the font due to this loss of flexibility - although it doesn't go into the details I just gave about how the flexibility is lost.

From '(3rd) Statement by Danre98', there is a faint hint of cultural suppression where a minority culture is being forced to use the script of a dominant culture (kind of like if all British articles were forced to use American spelling). It would explain the fervour involved. But neither side explicitly listed this reason and it might just be my imagination.  Stepho  talk  11:47, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

WP:NavFrame is a long-deprecated collapsing technology. Efforts over the past several years have trimmed down its use or made it such that when it is finally turned off in our Common.css/js, it will be accessible to users in non-article spaces (simply by uncollapsing its content permanently; see also User:IznoBot#Task 3). There are about 70 pages left to work on in non-article space to swap it for its replacement so there is still some to do there.

However, there are some 1400 pages in the mainspace that employ NavFrame. Noting that WP:COLLAPSE says not to collapse content in mainspace generally, would there be support for a mass removal of this specific class and related HTML in semi-automated fashion (not the content held inside it)? Or to finish removal, must the uses be converted to use NavFrame's replacement technology (or one of the various collapsing templates)?

If it is of interest, the remaining use of NavFrame is generally in a series of sports articles to hide long tables that I would argue violate WP:NOTSTATS, but I'm not interested in article deletion right now. ;)

I am willing to leave a nice "here's how to 'revert' this activity constructively" in the edit summary, if that matters, indicating how the interested user can swap to the more correct class. (And more or less did so in the context of IznoBot task 3.)

(This may need a wider audience a la RFC, or possibly a more general question, since that section was written largely when collapsing stuff was not broadly accessible, and while there may be rationale for its continued existence, accessibility is not it today as collapsing these days is a case of progressive enhancement.) Izno (talk) 21:44, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Hi @Izno:. This automated edit has left a bit of a mess on 2015–16 Coupe de France Preliminary Rounds. I would hope you can fix this before implementing the edit on any other Coupe de France articles, please. Cheers, Gricehead (talk) 19:27, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I caught that myself and didn't go back to fix it. When I get back to my PC I'll take care of it. Izno (talk) 22:14, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

FYI

 – Pointer to relevant discussion elsewhere.

Please see: Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters#Personal names and place names merger complete.

This merger affected one section of the main MoS page.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  16:20, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

Please forgive me if this has been discussed and decided, but even if it has, I would like my fellow editors to revisit this style question. I believe that Wikipedia needs a standard for expressing rankings instead of offering options. It adds to Wikipedia's reliability when people see a consistent style throughout all articles. In contrast, I believe it adds to our lack of credibility when people see different styles. When we do that, it appears we do not know what we are doing. Of course, a style should be consistent within an article, but that is not enough. We need to have a standard that is recognizable and consistent. As it stands, we have articles where rankings are referred to as "number one record," "number 1 record," "#1 record," and "No. 1 record." The Manual of Style allows four options, but we can do better and we should do better. The Associated Press and Chicago Manual of Style agree that proper style as "No. 1 record," and that is the style I propose. I believe when editors, especially new ones, come to the Wikipedia Manual of Style, they are looking for answers, and when instead of answers they find different options, it can be confusing. We cannot always provide definitive answers to every situation, but when we can, we should. I usually am in favor of giving people options, but there are times when structure, specific guidelines and policy is more important. In Wikipedia, we often have articles where rankings are expressed because of the nature of the expression. Please consider joining me in putting forward a specific Wikipedia style for expressing rankings, and that it be "No. 1" as in "...the song reached No. 1 on the Billboard charts." God bless and happy editing! MarydaleEd (talk) 02:08, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

I was always taught that it was necessary to capitalise after a semicolon linking two complete sentences, as in Zinc is a common metal; It has several industrial uses. (OK that's not the best way of phrasing that, but I think it works as an example.)

I was about to "correct" an occurrence of non-capitalisation, but checked the MOS first in case there was a national difference. But MOS:COLON is no help. I checked the talk archives and found much discussion but no consensus. So just as well I checked IMO.

I think the MOS should say one way or the other. I don't care which. Or if it does already, say it more clearly. Other thoughts? Andrewa (talk) 17:30, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

I've always learned the opposite; semi-colons should be followed by lower case. That seems to match the examples given in MOS:COLON. If there are differing acceptable styles out there, then I agree we should state a rule explicitly, and not rely on inference from the examples. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 17:35, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

According to MOS:SEMICOLON, the semicolon is an alternative to a full stop (period), enabling related material to be kept in the same sentence; it marks a more decisive division in a sentence than a comma. So it is kind of a middle ground between a comma and a colon. It isn't so much a matter of style as it is one of grammar. Given that the semicolon doesn't end a sentence and begin a new one, it isn't followed by capitalization. —El Millo (talk) 17:41, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

But in the example I gave, it does end a sentence and begin a new one, just like a full stop would. So by your own logic, the following sentence should have initial capitalization... exactly as my primary and high school teachers taught. But I don't mind which way we go. Just so long as we go one way or the other. Andrewa (talk) 00:12, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

It doesn't. Independent clauses don't get capitalised after the semicolon unless they start with a proper noun. They're considered to be two clauses in the same sentence that are linked by a semicolon. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 00:19, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

The word after a semicolon is not capitalized unless it's a proper noun. BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 00:50, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

By definition it doesn't end a new sentence and begin a new one. If you want that, you use a full stop, not a semicolon. —El Millo (talk) 01:19, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

But, grammatically, what precedes a semi-colon may be a complete sentence. Similarly with what follows one. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:51, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Friends, you are confusing "a complete sentence" with two independent clauses. In the sentence used as an example, they are two independent clauses and are better written without a semicolon. In that case, write "Zinc is a common metal and has several industrial uses." I do not believe anyone was ever taught to capitalize the word following a semicolon unless it is a proper noun. I do not believe it is a cultural difference. I believe it is a situation where people are far enough removed from having studied English grammar that they confuse what they were taught. It is not clarified and should not be clarified in the MOS because it is such a basic rule that no one, well, almost no one, could be confused by it. God bless and happy editing. MarydaleEd (talk) 02:46, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

This appears to be a simple case of the OP either having been taught incorrectly, or incorrectly recollected what s/he was taught. You don’t capitalise after a semi-colon (unless the next word is a proper name or acronym). MapReader (talk) 07:02, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

I've noticed that a great number of US publications capitalize after a colon and semicolon. (IMO that's fucked up, but hey.) Popcornfud (talk) 09:38, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

I don't recall being taught it, but I have always lower-cased following semicolon. Perhaps more significantly, I have never seen that capitalized in educated writing, and that's exactly the kind of pedantic detail I would notice and remember. I am American, and I would be interested to see a significant sample of this great number of US publications. I would be more interested to see what some of the major recognized style guides say about this, but I don't know how to find that. Wikipedia often conforms to a consensus among those guides if any exists, no matter what individual editors think about it personally. 68.97.42.64 (talk) 12:07, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Unfortunately, it seems there's no easy way to google sites for colons. that's exactly the kind of pedantic detail I would notice and remember - me too, and that's why it always sticks out to me when I notice it. I may randomly trawl some major US sites later to see if I can spot any examples. (For the record, I think it's gross and we shouldn't do it.) Popcornfud (talk) 12:37, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

From the age of 5, I was always taught to follow a semi-colon with a lower case letter, unless the word was a proper noun. I don't see why this rule should have changed, at least in the UK. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:54, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

If you were taught about semicolons from the age of 5 that explains a lot, Martin. EEng 16:08, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, we finished off complex algebra the year before. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:24, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

This American was taught the same. I think I was taught to capitalize after a colon, but (even if I was) that seems to have fallen out of favor (and I agree with it going away). --Khajidha (talk) 13:31, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

I think that great number of US publications might be like the large (and growing) number of publications (and speakers) using constucts like "there's lots of reasons", or "there's loads of semicolons". Possible rationale: now that any goofball on the planet with Internet access (that's pretty much all of us) can share their wisdom with the world, we need to figure out what people whose native language is Something Else are trying to say, so we're now used to having rules of grammar being ignored (because they weren't learned/taught). Ergo, the rules of grammar are superfluous; let's just ignore them. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 15:24, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

JohnFromPinckney, randomly came across an example - a 1998 movie review by Roger Ebert in the Chicago Times. They occupy "Spice World" as if they were watching it: They're so detached they can't even successfully lip-synch their own songs. Popcornfud (talk) 00:31, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

• Oh for God's sake, here are the rules: After a semicolon, never capitalize. If what follows a colon couldn't stand on its own as a sentence, never capitalize; if it can, then there's a stylistic choice to be made which partly depends on whether more than one sentence is being introduced (as in this very post). Of course, the following are always capitalized, the word never in the foregoing notwithstanding: proper names, initialisms normally capitalized, etc.
  If you doubt me, see User:EEng#correct. EEng 16:08, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
• "I was always taught that it was necessary to capitalise after a semicolon linking two complete sentences" – then you were taught wrong, or more likely did not remember what you were taught correctly. There are no major style guides that recommend such a style, at all, and it is certainly not used on Wikipedia. Next, "there's lots of reasons" is a grammar error (plurality disagreement). It's common and idiomatic in colloquial spoken (and not just American) English, but it's glaringly wrong in formal written English, so don't use it in our articles. And we don't use contractions in article text anyway.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  04:27, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

  Surely you mean "There is no style guide" ;P . And when did you start spelling capitalize with an s? For the record, I do think there are some very, VERY limited circumstances where a contraction might be used in article text, for example "because he had had no opportunity" --> "because he'd had no opportunity" -- assuming there's no way to reword. EEng 14:49, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

  In case it's unclear to you, SMC, or anybody else, I was absolutely not proposing or condoning the use of "there's lots of reasons" and similar, rather bemoaning its usage. And it may be common and idiomatic in colloquial spoken ... English, but I find it glaringly wrong when I read it or hear it. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 15:08, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

This is not in question. Never capitalize the word following a semicolon unless it is a proper noun. If you want to offer a general and vague statement that many publications require it, show me those publications and their rules. If you were taught it, produce a grammar textbook where that was taught. It doesn't exist. I fell in love with the English language in 1969 when I was a child and I have made it my life's work. I have studied it ad nauseam. I freely admit I obsess about it. So often, people think English grammar is subjective and that it is proper to write whatever sounds right or looks right to an individual. There are rules in grammar. Hoping that discussion is behind us, I would like to address the idea of semicolons in general. Semicolons have a place in writing, but please remember that periods and commas are the workhorses of English punctuation. They should be your punctuation of first choice. Any time you are tempted to use a semicolon to separate two independent clauses, please consider separating them into two sentences. The goal of grammar is to provide understanding for the reader and to do that, we must keep our sentences simple. Semicolons, colons, parenthesis, and dashes should be used judiciously. Lean on periods and commas and allow them to do their jobs. That is how we make our sentences simple and easy to read. God bless and happy editing! MarydaleEd (talk) 02:38, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

MarydaleEd, why are you lecturing me about semicolons and the goal of grammar? Why are you telling me what to do in bold letters? Why do you think I might want to offer a general and vague statement that many publications require capitalization after a semicolon? I have never done such a thing myself (except where it's appropriate, as with proper nouns) and I have never suggested doing such a thing, here or anywhere else on the planet. I do not want it to happen. Please don't bark at me for wanting to. I don't. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 05:39, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

Mr. Pinckney, until I received a notification on my account that you had messaged me here, I have never seen your name before in my life, but I am pleased to meet you. Allow me a moment to try to understand what this is about. Thank you. It should take only a moment. God bless and happy editing. MarydaleEd (talk) 06:03, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

Ok. Research is completed. There are a couple of ways I could approach this, Mr. Pinckney, but of course, I will choose the path less reflecting of my usual cheerful disposition because I am basically, at this point, typing in my sleep. So, do forgive any typos that might slip through. Upon my reading of your contributions, you appear to be a very intelligent man, so I will treat you like one. There is not a doubt in my mind that when you read my comments, you knew exactly what I was saying and to whom, and that in all I have written on this page tonight, with the exception of the last two posts I've just made, nothing I have written even can be remotely misconstrued to having anything to do with you. But, you already knew that. That leaves me with two reasons for why you wrote that message to me. Either you take issue with the way I formatted my text and, by doing it as I did, would make it appear as if I was answering you, even though you know full well that isn't the case. However, throwing a fit would be an excellent way to make your point, so you threw one to make the point about the formatting. Or, you are trolling and wanted to pick a fight, and feigned making it look like you thought I was talking to you in my messages. Those are really the only two possible options. Of course, there is the third one that I wasn't going to mention because it assumes you were ignorant enough to truly believe I made my post in response to something you said or did, even though there isn't a word in my message that in any way could possibly be in response to you. But, I know the last one shouldn't have even been brought up because, as I said, I've read your stuff and can tell you are an intelligent person. Therefore, ignorance doesn't apply. So, which of the two is it? Do ou want to spank my hand over a formatting slip? I am happy to accept responsibility for not formatting properly. You seem to have too much on the ball to be a troller, so that take out two of the three. So, tell me what formatting mishap angered you. By the way, I thought hthis was fun! God bless and happy editing. MarydaleEd (talk) 06:26, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

MarydaleEd, perhaps you should get more sleep before you edit. You've typed what appears to be one big blast of words in which you try really hard not to insult me by saying I'm too stupid to figure out you weren't talking to me, so I must be so evil that I want to pick a fight. It comes over as insulting to me, either way.

I do not want to fight, I despise trolling. In fact, the only clue I have when you do not mention other users' names is your indentation. I guess that's what you mean by "formatting" in your reply above. But maybe if I'd had more sleep, myself, I might have seen you'd merely indented improperly and were talking to somebody else. But as it is, I don't think anyone here knows to whom you were replying.

And by the way, our paths have crossed; you thanked me for this edit at Dick Van Dyke back in June (I have no idea how to link an actual "Thank"). — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 06:57, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

Good to know we've worked together before. Sorry for my bad memory. You are right on at least one thing...I need to get some sleep. I couldn't read all that you wrote, but I'll come back. Can we pick this back up tomorrow? Until then, please start at the very top of this section with the original question about capitalizing after semicolons, read that content, then maybe graze over some of the things said, OVERSTEPPING any comment made by you (because that is what I did. I read nothing you wrote which is why your name didn't ring a bell) and THEN read what I wrote. Please do ignore that I wrote directly under your last comment at teh time. I put my comments down there because it was last and that is where I was supposed to put it. You know very well that my comments had nothing to do with you or yours. I've got to go to sleep now =. I keep nodding off. I promise I will come back tomorrow with all my brain cells and answer you intelligently and specifically. Thamks. God bless and happy editng. MarydaleEd (talk) 07:11, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

How about if you two don't pick this up in the morning? EEng 15:04, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

I would like to offer a sincere apology to Wikipedia editors, and specifically to JohnFromPinckney. JohnFromPinckney, please know that in my original post to this subject, any references I made to other comments truly had nothing to do with you. I posted where I did only because I was tagging onto the end, as is usual practice. I am sorry it appeared like I was lecturing you. I never saw any post from you. If you go to my user page, you will see that my last user box reveals that I suffer from insomnia. What seems funny after one has had sleep meds is not necessarily funny to those who have not. I was attempting to bring you in on the humor, not insult you with it. A lesson has been learned. Do not post in a public place when chemistry tells you it is time for bed. It is embarrassing and unprofessional. I appreciate your contributions to Wikipedia and hope we can work together again. I am truly a fan. God bless and happy editing! MarydaleEd (talk) 23:24, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

There is an ongoing discussion regarding the possessive form of Bruno Mars. Should the possessive form of Mars contain only an apostrophe (Mars') or an apostrophe and another 's' (Mars's), per MOS or should this be an exception just like Jesus is and reword whenever it is possible? Any input is welcomed.

Kind regards, MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 22:47, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Mars's. We have MOS:POSS for a reason, and it's pretty clear.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  16:36, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Hi all

Not sure the most appropriate place to post this, but an IP editor has been edit warring with me over a change to the English variety at the above article. The subject is Australian-born, but has lived in the US since the age of seven, which makes me think she does not qualify for "strong national ties" for either US or Australian English. She appears to identify as "Australian made, American raised" according to her Instagram.[6] As such, without a strong reason to prefer one or the other, I think we should stick to US English as the first variant used in the article, per MOS:RETAIN. I'm at two reverts now though, so seeking more opinions here. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 09:21, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

You’ve also reverted GiantSnowman too, rather than it just being you v an IP. There is an open thread on the talk page too. - 2A01:4C8:46D:2DFF:5CB:46F7:4F12:4CCC (talk) 09:27, 21 August 2021 (UTC) Resigning to activate proper ping 2A01:4C8:1075:2F3F:1854:D8FA:8876:3F5B (talk) 22:21, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

There's a discussion at Talk:Bridget Burgess (racing driver)#Language and date format.—Bagumba (talk) 13:48, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

?No there isn't! I think she has "strong national ties" to both US & OZ, therefore it's first come first served, per MOS:RETAIN. Johnbod (talk) 14:44, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Because (I think) of a recent move, the discussion is actually at Talk:Bridget Burgess#Language and date format. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 14:53, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

For probably their entire existence, the Jesus and Moses articles used " Moses' " as the possessive form until I changed them to " Moses's ". The other day I came across an article on Merriam Webster that says specifically that biblical names are an exception to this rule and should be written " Moses' " and " Jesus' ", but an editor won't let me change it back. I noticed the first time I was making the edits that certain quotes used the " Moses' " form (for example Moses#Artapanus), which I left as is, since quotes shouldn't be changed obviously. I also noticed just now that the footnotes on Jesus still use the " Jesus' " form because I missed them the first time around. Should the manual of style be updated or does Merriam Webster not know what they're talking about?

I think they might be right because people always say "in Jesus name, amen", they don't say "in Jesuses name, amen" Akeosnhaoe (talk) 16:08, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia follows its own manual of style; while it may be influenced by others, it doesn't need to adhere to them. MOS:'S recommends adding 's to singular nouns ending in s, including proper names (which I personally find abhorrent to look at), but suggests rewording a sentence if adding the 's would make the name harder to read. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 16:19, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

I think Akeosnhaoe is aware of what the MOS says. The question isn't of what the MOS says but whether the MOS should say what it says or if it should be amended. The MOS itself can't be used as an argument against such a question..now, I personally don't understand why only biblical names should have such an exception (I would that this were the standard), but if that truly is the practice, I think it's worthy of consideration. Firejuggler86 (talk) 03:47, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

Well, since you've asked about should, the apostrophe represents a contraction, hence singular uses a apostrophe-s (contracting "his", "hers" or "its") whereas the plural form does not (contracting "their"). That's why it does not apply to personal pronouns; they are already spelt out in full. I don't know why there was an exception made for Biblical names; but it was a common style to omit the "s" when it was not pronounced. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:49, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

That’s not actually correct, Hawkeye7, see Saxon genitive. The idea that it’s a contraction was a popular folk etymology in the early modern period.

The current rule has consistency on its side - there’s no actual reason not to always write ‘s and there are style guides that prescribe it including for names like Moses and Jesus. It’s not a question of correct usage, just standardization in a particular written document. I personally prefer to write all names ending in -us with just an apostrophe, but that’s only one option. I don’t see any reason to change the current rule.—Ermenrich (talk) 22:55, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

There isn't a rule for how to handle possessives for non-plural names ending in s, right? I generally go by how its pronounced, and I suppose most people do.. Mr Franks' bunny pelts, Jits's walloo.

The Bibilical names thing is just tradition. Certainly for Jesus -- people always say "In Jesus' name" rather than "In Jesus's name". I guess preachers talk that way. Since that's how people in the real world do, so should we. Even Strunk & White carved out a exception for that (they prescribed the 's form for all other instances). For Moses the possessive is just pronounced that way, I guess: "By Moses' whiskers, I shall be avenged". Maybe because three esses in a row sounds awkward. So that's not an issue. Are there other important Biblical names ending in s? Herostratus (talk) 03:27, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Well, Lazarus comes to mind. Silas, James, Tobias, Amos, Matthias, Genesis, Phineas, Gluteus Maximus. And the possessive form of Methuselah – is it Meh-thooze-uh-luhz or Meh-thooze-uh-luh-zez (or -zuz)? And what's the possessive of Lourdes? I don't even know how to pronounce Lourdes itself. EEng 04:39, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Phinehas "distinguished himself as a youth at Shittim". I think that's all we need to know. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:34, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

The only one for which I actually hear anyone not saying the 's is "Jesus' name". And even there I do hear some people say "Jesus's name". I'm not sure why anyone cares about pronunciation when the question is about spelling, though. It's not as if English doesn't already have gobs and gobs of silent letters. Just stick the 's on all of them and continue pronouncing them however you already do. --Khajidha (talk) 13:08, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

It has nothing to do with a Biblical exception. It's just English. The possessive of James is very often written as James' rather than James's, for example. But both are technically correct. I don't think we should be changing one to the other except for consistency within articles. It may even be that there's a WP:ENGVAR issue here, as British English certainly often prefers the apostrophe without the terminal 's' on these names (as per the given example, St Thomas' Hospital). -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:35, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Keep in mind that Biblical names are actually Aramaic, Greek or Hebrew rather than English, and the English names are often significantly different from the original, e.g., Hebrew: מֹשֶׁה, romanized: Moshe, lit. 'Moses', Hebrew: פִּינְחָס‎, romanized: Pinchas, lit. 'Phineas', Hebrew: שְׁלֹמֹה, romanized: Shlomoh, lit. 'Solomon'. --Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 15:48, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

As Ermenrich and others above have said, the MoS standard that singular names carry an ‘s in the possessive is simple, clear, and widely used elsewhere. I don’t see any reason to be making any exceptions for biblical names. The London hospital exception is actually not an exception - the change in its punctuation is relatively recent and reflects that there were two St Thomases associated with the hospital. It doesn’t indicate anything about British English, where ‘s for the singular possessive is the common standard. MapReader (talk) 18:15, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

This is already addressed by MOS:POSS. It does not make exceptions for Biblical names, which would be a gross PoV-pushing exercise. Nor is that an idea found across other style guides, which have widely divergent ideas about this: use 's in every case; use 's except after a trailing s; ... after a trailing s or z; ... after a trailing s or ss or z; ... after a /s/ sound however spelled (including x, sse, and other things in various cases, but not s or z if silent or pronounced /z/); ... in all cases except after a trailing s [or any of the variations just mentioned] in a Biblical name; ... in all cases except after a trailing s [or any of the variations just mentioned] in a name from antiquity at all; ... insert 10 other pseudo-rules here.

Every style guide says something different about it, and most people just do whatever they were told to do by whichever English teacher they most listened to from elementary through secondary education, or they do whatever they've gotten used to professionally if subjected to a consistent style at work (e.g. a particular organization's style guide). Fortunately, MoS's standard (which MoS did not invent, but adopted as the simplest and most consistent) is being adopted by more and more style guides over time, including Chicago (it "permits" variation on the matter, but no longer advises it, not since the 15th edition if I recall correctly).

We need to stop rehashing this stuff. It is guaranteed that every single editor is going to disagree with something in MoS (as they will in every other style guide in existence), and it is also guaranteed that every single MoS line-item will have at least one editor disagreeing with it. This needs to stop being an excuse for perennial "fix the MoS my way or else!" rehash. It wastes both our time and a considerable amount of editorial goodwill. The central purpose of MoS is to present consistent content for readers, and its secondary purpose is forestalling editorial conflict over style trivia. Engaging here in cyclical editorial strife over style trivia is therefore contraindicated. Just accept that fact that MoS is never going to say 100% of the things you'd like it to say. And "just do whatever you're used to" defeats the main purpose of MoS. Instead, just follow MoS and stop picking style fights. If you write an article for The New York Times, then follow the NYT style guide. If you submit a paper to an American Medical Association journal, then follow AMA style. This is not F'ing rocket science.
 — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:34, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

After someone is initially introduced in an article that isn't their biography, how should they be referred to?

e.g. say the article is about 2018 Russia–United States summit and Trump is introduced as "U.S. President Donald Trump", in the rest of the article is he referred to as "President Trump" or just "Trump"? I think there's a MOS about this but I can't remember which one. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 10:23, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

It depends on the context. If "Trump" by itself is ambiguous somehow (say it could be the Trump organization, or one of the Trump family if any of them were mentioned also), then it needs "President" or "Donald" in front of it to disambiguate it. If it isn't clear that the reference to Trump is before or after his presidency, then "President Trump" would be used only for anything pertaining to his time in office. Use the least amount of words that still makes the intended meaning clear. ~Anachronist (talk) 11:59, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Let me pick a better example so we’re not getting into questions of ambiguity, say repeated usage of “Prime Minister Arden” at Christchurch mosque shootings or “Prime Minister Johnson” at COVID-19 pandemic in the United Kingdom ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 13:20, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

MOS:LASTNAME may be what you were looking for. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 12:29, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Agreed; we already have this in MoS. And Anachronist is correct about context, i.e. about WP:Use common sense.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:42, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

I was pinged to this discussion, but now I can't find that ping. Anyways, FWIW - I don't see why we'd have to keep repeating Prime Minister (for example) in front of the occupants name, unless there's another person being mentioned in that article with the same full name or same last-name. GoodDay (talk) 14:43, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

GoodDay, Here's that ping [7]. I got one too, no idea why. As stated above, MOS:LASTNAME already handles this and we seem to have a consensus here that reflects that. Odd that this discussion is still continuing TBH. WaggersTALK 14:59, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Ah, ok, we were pinged to the discussion below, not this one! WaggersTALK 15:00, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

I was confused too. The edit added a section heading. Apparently, the ping software doesn't recognize when a ping is for a newly-created section. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 22:18, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

A template-protected edit request on the talk page of ((EB1911 poster)) which renders as:

Wikisource has the text of the 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica article "Iliad".

asks that double quotation marks be added enclosing the title to satisfy MOS:MINORWORKS which specifically mentions reference works like an encyclopedia. The request also asks for an italics parameter for use when the minor work is about a book, play, ect. as outlined at Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Titles. I've worked out the technical aspects of the request but have misgivings about implementing a change that would place an italicized title between double quotation marks. I'd like some guidance from the regular watchers of this page before answering the request. Thank you.--John Cline (talk) 19:21, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Were you to use ((cite EB1911)) to cite an article about a book or about some creature where the encyclopedia article's title is the name of the book or the creature's binomen then you would write:

((cite EB1911 |title=''Book Title''))

 Chisholm, Hugh, ed. (1911). "Book Title". Encyclopædia Britannica (11th ed.). Cambridge University Press.

((cite EB1911 |title=''Genus species''))

 Chisholm, Hugh, ed. (1911). "Genus species". Encyclopædia Britannica (11th ed.). Cambridge University Press.

This latter form occurs regularly with ((cite iucn)) where |title=Genus species

((cite iucn |author1=Hadfield, M. |author2=Hadway, L. |date=1996 |title=''Achatinella leucorrhaphe'' |volume=1996 |page=e.T209A13051378 |doi=10.2305/IUCN.UK.1996.RLTS.T209A13051378.en |access-date=13 September 2021))

Hadfield, M.; Hadway, L. (1996). "Achatinella leucorrhaphe". IUCN Red List of Threatened Species. 1996: e.T209A13051378. doi:10.2305/IUCN.UK.1996.RLTS.T209A13051378.en. Retrieved 13 September 2021.

Italic markup within double quotes is a rather common occurrence; this search finds about 35,500 articles before it times out.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 19:42, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Thank you Trappist the monk for that thoroughly definitive answer. I appreciate you and wish you the best.--John Cline (talk) 01:43, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Moved to Template talk:Anchor § Documentation boldly changed; some unaddressed objections in preceding discussion, however

Please refer to Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_222#Instructions_on_the_placement_of_"Anchor"_templates.

Template:Anchor's documentation was boldly changed with this revision; however, I see some unaddressed objection in the discussion. It seems to me that placing the anchor in the previous section just above the next heading is the best option. While it does have the problem that a section could be moved with the anchor then being in the wrong place, I think this is better than the result of substituting the template in the heading of the section the anchor links to.

Please let me know your thoughts. Regards, DesertPipeline (talk) 10:08, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Regardless of where it is used, there should not be two pages that decide where it goes. Seeing as it is a template, that place should be Template:Anchor and its talk page. Perhaps it would be valuable to document the previous discussions here on its optimal location. Izno (talk) 14:15, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

I've started a section for it there now: Template talk:Anchor#Documentation boldly changed; some unaddressed objections in preceding discussion, however. If anyone reading here would like to participate, please feel free. Thanks, DesertPipeline (talk) 15:18, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Should trailing punctuation be added to table cells? Someone already made that edit for me (which also impacted image descriptions which is only vaguely relevant here,), which is 1035992478 which should demonstrate nicely what I mean. My personal opinion on that is that there should not be any in "special encasings" or however you want to call them, which include tables, image descriptions and similar templates. This discussion should be primarily about tables if possible since I saw a lot of inconsistencies in similar tables.

-- NetSysFire (talk) 21:41, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

MOS:CAPFRAG says to not put periods at the end of sentence fragments for captions (which that diff did). Not sure if that would apply to table entries but that's where my intuition takes me.  Stepho  talk  10:57, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Sentence fragments should not have terminal punctuation, regardless of where they are found. Primergrey (talk) 12:06, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Agreed. Rather than post a new pointless argument about that here, just look at what several million other articles are doing. They are not putting periods/points at the end of table entries or headers, or list entries, or image captions, or table captions, or etc., except where they end with abbreviations that take a dot, or actually form complete sentences.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:41, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

Closed quite quick. I absolutely agree with the points raised. The issue primarily around the inclusion of United Kingdom after E/S/W/NI is the result of nationalist editors seeking to prevent the name being associated with their region. It is also an attempt at trying to portray that E/S/W/NI are actual sovereign countries in the way that the USA, France, China etc. are. They however are not.

In regards to historical names. I agree as well that the contemporary entity should be used, but then again the issue comes down in many aspects to nationalist editors taking offence over history and reality. Irish editors of nationalist persuaion frequently censor Lordship of Ireland, Kingdom of Ireland and United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland from infobox locations and replacing it simply with Ireland. This creates an anomaly in that other places are not treated like this and lumped under a geographical entity. Mabuska ^(talk) 14:48, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

One wonders, why don't they just call it the "Disunited Kingdom". GoodDay (talk) 20:06, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

That's not really helpful GoodDay and you already have had plenty to say after almost every comment. My response is simply because this was hastily closed and was focused on the issue raised. Mabuska ^(talk) 23:14, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Greetings

Requesting (brainstorming) inputs regarding Manual of Style proposal @ Chronological listing of coastal townships

Thanks and warm regards

Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 07:14, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

Currently we have the following wording at Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Punctuation inside or outside:

Include terminal punctuation within the quotation marks only if it was present in the original material, and otherwise place it after the closing quotation mark. For the most part, this means treating periods and commas in the same way as question marks: keep them inside the quotation marks if they apply only to the quoted material and outside if they apply to the whole sentence.

The second sentence above contradicts the following:

When quoting a full sentence, the end of which coincides with the end of the sentence containing it, place terminal punctuation inside the closing quotation mark.

See the corresponding examples. This is clearly different from the treatment of question marks.

I recommend simply deleting "For the most part, this means treating periods and commas in the same way as question marks: keep them inside the quotation marks if they apply only to the quoted material and outside if they apply to the whole sentence."

Winston (talk) 04:35, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

Could you give an example that could expose the contradiction? Firefangledfeathers (talk) 04:40, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

Here is an example from the subsection itself. In Did Darla say, "Here I am"? the quotation mark applies to both the quoted material and to the whole sentence, and is placed outside. In Marlin said: "I need to find Nemo." the period applies to both the quoted material and to the whole sentence, and is placed inside. Winston (talk) 04:51, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

I don't think Darla said "Here I am?", meaning the question mark doesn't apply to the quoted material. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 04:54, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

Ah wait I'm incorrect. The question mark in Did Darla say, "Here I am"? applies to the whole sentence only. Still, the manual says "outside if they apply to the whole sentence", but the period applies to the whole sentence and is placed inside. Winston (talk) 04:55, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

My first thought is that the first quoted paragraph lays out the general rule ("For the most part") and the second lays out a specific rule that serves as an exception. I have more thinking to do on whether the removal you're proposing would hurt or help. Hopefully others will chime in soon. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 05:14, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

I suspect that was the intention of its author, but the OP is right that it does fail, because what is presented as a general rule is both qualified in a way that makes it meaningless (“for the most part”…) and isn’t really the general rule at all. It is the examples below in that section of the MoS that make clear what we are supposed to be doing. Taking first the part that Winston highlights, it is misleading because it gives two scenarios that are not mutually exclusive: it is possibly for a full stop (period) to apply BOTH to the whole sentence and be present in the original material. The phrasing suggests that in such circumstances the full stop goes outside, but the MoS examples make clear that in many cases it’s the opposite that we should be doing. However the first part of the section that Winston quotes above, but doesn’t propose for deletion, is also badly worded, since it suggests that we should be including the full stop within the quotation if it was present in the original material - yet, here again, the examples make clear that this isn’t what we should be doing, since any end of sentence fragment that is quoted will clearly have the full stop at the end yet this then goes OUTSIDE the quotation marks. “Otherwise” is used totally inappropriately in that sentence! What it (the first sentence) is trying to say is “never include punctuation within quotation marks unless it was present in the quoted material” - which IS a general rule! - The second part is trying to say “the general approach is to include punctuation within quotation marks if it applies solely to the quotation and outside if it forms part of the overall sentence” but I would add for clarity at the end, covering off terminal full stops which is the most common scenario: “, terminal periods (full stops) should be included within quotation marks if an entire sentence from the quoted material is being quoted in full, but otherwise put outside”. These would be my own proposals, but it would be just as good to use the wording we already have elsewhere in WP that sets out the general rule: “include within quotation marks only those punctuation marks that appeared in the original quoted material and in which the punctuation mark fits with the sense of the quotation, but otherwise to place punctuation outside the closing quotation marks”. The AND inside that is doing the heavy lifting, but it is at least correct and clear. MapReader (talk) 05:57, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

I've thought about this some more (typed this up before seeing MapReader's comment, they make good points too). I believe the issue is mainly with the wording of the explanation, which could do with some logical refinement. Here's my thoughts.

A question mark goes inside if and only if the question mark applies to the quotation:

• Did Darla ask, "Where am I?" (question mark applies to both the whole sentence and the quotation)
• Did Darla say, "I like dogs"? (question mark applies to whole sentence only)
• Darla asked, "Where am I?" (question mark applies to the quotation only)

Thus when it comes to question marks, "keep them inside the quotation marks if they apply only to the quoted material and outside if they apply to the whole sentence" should instead be "keep them inside the quotation marks if and only if they apply to the quoted material".

I think the explanation could also be reorganized. We should first explain fully the rules for question marks, then introduce the heuristic of mostly treating periods and commas in the same way as question marks, followed by further explanation for commas, periods, etc. In this case, there may be enough exceptions to the heuristic that it may not even be helpful to some people.

An example of such an exception is that if a period is placed inside, then it applies to the quoted material, but if a period applies to the quoted material, it is not necessarily placed inside. (So we have here a one-directional material conditional rather than the biconditional "if and only if").

Basically, we need to be extremely clear and explicit with logical terms such as "if", "only if", "otherwise", and with the exceptions (if we can even call them that at this point). We should also try to organize the explanation in the most effective way (although what's effective is subjective). I suggest diving into the precise details with examples first, perhaps organized by type of punctuation, and then summarizing at the end. Currently we have an inaccurate summary followed by (correct) examples. Winston (talk) 06:14, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

• I strongly urge that examples be found that might conceivably arise in actual article editing. The current guideline spends most of its time on encyclopedically impossible cases. No article is (or should, anyway) ever say something like "I need", said Marlin, "to find Nemo." EEng 14:21, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

  We could say “The film”, commented Hollywood Reporter, “is very good”. But I’d think we can credit editors with some ability to extrapolate from the examples we already have. Winston risks complicating things by trying to revise the examples as well, which are currently not broken being pretty clear. We’d do better simply to come up with something better to replace the opening paragraph. MapReader (talk) 17:16, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

  No, it's inconceivable that an article would read “The film”, commented Hollywood Reporter, “is very good”; that's for novels, historical fiction, and Sunday-supplement pieces. ("'Ask not what your country can do for you", the young president challenged his listeners, "ask what you can do for your country.'" – I'd love to be a fly on the wall while you guys hammer out how to punctuate that one.) If you can't find an actual article-editing situation to which the principle exemplified by an example arises, then the example not just can be junked, but needs to be junked. See WP:MOSBLOAT. EEng 00:25, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

  The purpose of an example is to help the reader understand the general principle, and whether or not the words used are true to real life isn’t a critical criterion. In your example the final period clearly goes outside the quotation marks, because the wording within your second set of quotation marks is a sentence fragment and not an entire sentence. MapReader (talk) 05:46, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

  I'll say it for the third time: if you can't supply an example that would actually arise in an article, then "the general principle" doesn't need to be understood, and shouldn't be bloating MOS. EEng 06:03, 27 August 2021 (UTC) P.S. There's a lot more going on with the Kennedy passage.

  You have taken the discussion off on a tangent; the original point was about the introductory wording, which most posts above agree is currently inadequate. If you don’t like the examples, that’s a separate issue, and the onus should be on you to offer up some better ones. MapReader (talk) 05:09, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

  Off on a tangent might be preferable to going around in circles. And no, it's the person wanting to retain, in MOS, a particular provision who carries the onus, if challenged, of giving at least one example of a realistic editing situation to which that provision would apply. If there are no such situations, which as I've said I suspect is the case above, then it's obviously impossible for me to offer one as an example as you illogically demand. This the fourth time I've explained this self-evident truth -- here's hoping it sinks in this time. EEng 05:20, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

Currently we have If a name ending in s or z would be difficult to pronounce with 's added (Jesus's teachings), consider rewording (the teachings of Jesus). Maybe it's me, but "Jesus's" is not particularly difficult to pronounce. The possessive seems to become more difficult to pronounce on multi-syllable words with stresses on the final syllable, say manganese's properties, which might make a better example. (Or Sisyphus's struggles, perhaps.) --Nat Gertler (talk) 22:05, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Lazarus's lethal legalisms. Methuselah's memorable mercury montages. Peter Piper picked a peck of pickled peppers. Sad Sue certified Sisyphus's struggles similarly silly. EEng 00:11, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Doing the OP the favour of taking the point seriously, personally I agree and would delete that provision entirely. Whether something is difficult to pronounce is subjective, and in any event, since when was ease of pronunciation the criterion for deciding how written text should be punctuated? Rewording is always an option that editors have, and shouldn’t need providing for by specific reference within the MoS. Failing deletion, an alternative example would at least move us away from the recently aired misapprehension that there is some sort of exception (to the general rule of adding ‘s) for biblical references. MapReader (talk) 05:19, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

None of those seem hard to pronounce to me. Just put the 's on and leave it to the reader to pronounce or not. I mean, it's not like English doesn't already have boatloads of words with silent letters.--Khajidha (talk) 10:31, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Why is “difficult to pronounce” even a consideration for something that’s written? Are we expecting people to gather round to have articles read out to them? (Or is the concern those that need to move their lips to read to themselves??) DeCausa (talk) 15:49, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

I don't know what the original rationale was, but we do have a commitment to WP:ACCESSIBILITY. Some of our users do, indeed, have articles read out to them. pburka (talk) 16:57, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

'Difficult to pronounce' is a subjective value judgement that should not be present in the MoS. Different people speak English in different ways, and what might be difficult for some is easy for others. RGloucester — ☎ 16:59, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Yes, we often gather round the piano in the front parlour and sing the Today's Featured Article to the tune of Land of Hope and Glory. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:48, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

• It looks as if we have a speedy consensus to remove the above mentioned phrase? Making the MoS shorter is generally wise. MapReader (talk) 17:54, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

  Agreed, to avoid instruction creep. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 22:44, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

  Concur, as OP. --Nat Gertler (talk) 23:21, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

  Give it a couple of days. No hurry on this. And re "it's subjective", many style issues are subjective. In fact, MOS mostly deals with stuff that varies from publication to publication i.e. it's a subjective choice among multiple formally correct alternatives, but one which the project decides it wants standardized. EEng 01:02, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

True, although I still maintain that having a rule about written punctuation that rests upon how something might be pronounced if spoken is, as you would say, dumb… MapReader (talk) 05:35, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

I'd only say so if it was, indeed, dumb. Writing is fundamentally a visual embodiment of speech, so considering how something is spoken isn't dumb. In English we're used to orthography being all over the map, but in other alphabetic languages it would seem bizarre not to consider pronunciation. EEng 18:47, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

For what it's worth the Chicago Manual of Style mentions pronunciation a reference point for whether or not to include an "s" in a possessive, and advises against punctuation such as "Etta James' singing", because this "disregards pronunciation in the majority of cases". --Lord Belbury (talk) 07:17, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

A lot of style choices are subjective, but that's not really the issue here. The point is that this phrase does not make sense because its assertion about what is 'hard to pronounce' is unverifiable (because what each person can pronounce is different, depending on dialect, ability, &c.), and will likely ring false to many people consulting it for guidance. While this is not the place for a linguistic discussion, I strongly contest Mr EEng's point that 'writing is fundamentally a visual embodiment of speech'. This is entirely incorrect, and rooted in a phoneticist viewpoint that should not be embedded into the MoS. There are many examples the world over of cultures that use seperate written and spoken forms that completely deviate from each other. Please refrain from making such strange and offensive assertions here! RGloucester — ☎ 19:52, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Well I'm afraid you've made it a linguistic discussion, one in which you don't know what you're talking about. That writing (in natural languages, anyway) represents that which can be spoken is a bedrock axiom, even if such representation is often rough and confusing, or (as in Chinese) there are multiple, widely divergent recognized ways to speak out a given piece of writing. These things can make discussing how something is pronounced complex, sometimes even futile, but they don't mean the general goal isn't worth pursuing where possible. EEng 20:33, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

I believe I do know what I am talking about, thank you. Perhaps you are not familiar, but there are languages that are capable of being read, written, and understood without any knowledge of an appropriate verbal way to express that language. Written language is capable of conveying ideas, without sound. Given that I read and write in one such language, I find your continued attempt to impose phoneticism appalling. But, I will not sully this talk page any longer. RGloucester — ☎ 20:40, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

And I'm quite sure you don't, you're welcome. You've taken on with characteristic rapidity your familiar role of overwrought scold ("offensive", "appalling", "impose phoneticism", "sully") staking out some eccentric position. Go ahead: show us a natural-language writing system that isn't meant to be read out orally. That one might conceivably learn a language's writing with no idea of how it's spoken is obvious – here's an artificial example that's actually intended to be learned that way – but to move from the conceivable to the practical: did you learn Japanese that way? Like I said, go on and tell us; we really want to hear it (or read it). EEng 21:34, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

No answer. Huh.

On reflection it's occurred to me that maybe you're confusing the proposition that all writing represents speech (which is what I'm saying) for the proposition that all writing represents speech phonetically, or alphabetically, or something like that (which is obviously not true, and not what I'm saying because... well, because... y'know... I'm not a moron). EEng 00:08, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

Of course we should consider pronounceability. For example, tongue twisters or rhymes in formal prose are generally inappropriate because they distract the reader. And, as I mentioned above, some of our readers are, in fact, listeners and we should consider their needs. But I'm not sure we need this specific rule. The guidance to "[use] plain English" and "avoid ... unnecessarily complex wording" in the introduction is probably sufficient. pburka (talk) 20:29, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Difficulty of pronunciation isn't mentioned, but the exceptions to adding an 's' to a singular possessive ending in 's' (or sibilant, especially if followed by same, e.g. could "for goodness(') sake" ever be "for goodness's sake"?) are given in both Strunk & White (under rule number 1, actually) and Fowler. I think some rule making allowances for such exceptions should be kept. Dhtwiki (talk) 05:41, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

Again, if you don't want to pronounce it, don't But that is not a reason not to write it. Or do you say "kuh-nig-hit" for "knight"? --Khajidha (talk) 13:37, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Just because English has very difficult spelling doesn't mean we should make it worse. EEng 14:42, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Seems to me it would make it better, because 1) it would be more predictable and 2) it would more closely match the pronunciations I use and most often encounter. --Khajidha (talk) 16:31, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

It's more like kuh-neekt if you're trying for a Middle English pronunciation of, say, Chaucer. Acknowledging standard spelling variants here should be helpful when such variants are encountered in sources. Dhtwiki (talk) 21:38, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Does this impact Spoken Wikipedia at all? Martinevans123 (talk) 14:59, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Even if we accept that "reword phrases that are difficult to pronounce" is a reasonable command or suggestion for the MoS (on which I'm not committed; I suspect we could do without it), I think there's a real question of whether it is a concern that is that 's-centric that the suggestion should be in this section, or whether this is a more general concern that deserve's a section on its own. --Nat Gertler (talk) 01:03, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Agree Remove the “difficult to pronounce” guideline from this MoS. Frankly, though, when I begun speaking English (as a second language) it was difficult to pronounce for me, so I would suggest to move this phrase to simple: WP: MoS. ‑‑ K (🗪 | ✍) 07:23, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

I have gone ahead and removed the sentence, as that appeared to be the consensus (despite the heat of people arguing over things that were not that question.) --Nat Gertler (talk) 00:19, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

And @EEng: has decided to single-handedly overrule this consensus, despite (as near as I can tell) not having put forth any statement that this particular sentence should be kept (at least that I can find in his large amount of text here). On August 20, his objection was that we should "Give it a couple of days" -- we gave it another week, and not only were there not new folks saying "no" to the deletion, there was at least one additional call supporting the deletion. Consensus looks clear. Does anyone besides EEng feel that consensus has not been reached? (And the edit summary that he used of course misstated the situation; it's not just a mere case of "A couple of people saying they don't get the point" -- it looks like we have actual calls to delete from @MapReader:, @Jochem van Hees and Jochem van Hees:, @Kai Burghardt:, @RGloucester:, and myself.) --Nat Gertler (talk) 03:16, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

Does anyone besides EEng feel that consensus has not been reached – Apparently the answer is yes. See below. EEng 04:45, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

• It's standard advice that native speakers should rely on pronunciation to guide this kind of spelling, example (see it's mention of Chicago MoS). Perhaps their example (Euripides's plays) might be used, but asserting that pronunciation has no application in written English is a mistake. Johnuniq (talk) 03:55, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

  That another style guide does so might be evidence to support an argument, but I’m not seeing an argument. Things would be much simpler and clearer without such provisions, which I struggle to see the sense of, particularly as neither Jesus’s nor Euripides’s with the ‘s voiced appears particularly difficult to pronounce to me. It’s a shame there was a revert based on scant opposition, but as it’s the MoS how about a proper survey of views? MapReader (talk) 05:41, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

@Johnuniq: The question of whether the possessive of Jesus includes the added s, which is what the article you point to discusses, is not the matter of the deletion being discussed in this thread (though you may wish to look to the Bruno Mars thread.) Even though the discussion started with questioning the choice of example, the topic quickly moved on to whether we should even have the suggestion that we should consider avoiding having a possessive at all for cases where it is hard to pronounce. (Myself, while I am somewhat open on the question of whether we should recommend rephrasing things to avoid hard-to-pronounce sentences, I see zero logic on having that concern applied specifically and solely to singular possessives, rather than making it its own general MOS entry.) Do you have a position on the deletion being discussed? (Forgive me if you think it clear that you were making no comment on that matter but another editor just used your entry into the discussion to make claims about the deletion discussion.) --Nat Gertler (talk) 13:46, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

• Can we do the bold edit now then? Very few objections have been raised and they have all been countered. As far as I can tell EEng is the only one who wanted to continue the discussion but has not provided any arguments himself. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 10:20, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

  At this point it's not really a bold edit, since there's been plenty of time for people to comment. As someone guessed, I don't actually care about this particular provision, but I'm very surprised no one else seems to either. EEng 11:13, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

It wasn't a bold edit when it was done after a week of discussion, either. Given how you responded to that by undoing the edit, misdescribing the discussion, and obnoxiously calling me "pilgrim", it's reasonably to wonder if you're going to appropriately respond this time. --Nat Gertler (talk) 22:29, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Don't take it so personal, pilgrim. I've participated in, and often guided, a whole lot of discussions here, and have a pretty darn good idea of how the community will react to certain kinds of things. In this case, I judged that there would be significant controversy over the change, even if for some reason it hadn't manifested yet; but in this case my crystal ball failed my badly. So sue me. EEng 00:47, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

So you entered this thread to do a little joking around -- and little joking I have no problem with. But you stayed on insulting other editors, overriding consensus, sliding the goalpost, misdescribing the discussion repeatedly and now, having seen that I would prefer not to be called "pilgrim", chose to attack me with that again. Is that all to be blamed on your malfunctioning crystal ball? You may want to consider whether you are interacting here in ways that encourage participation, or whether you are letting Wikipedia:Civility fall by the wayside. --Nat Gertler (talk) 02:11, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

No, no, no, no, no, no and, um ... no. I entered the thread, and reverted the edit, for exactly the reason I stated above. If it upsets you to see Gloucester make a fool of himself, talk to him about it. The stuff about goalposts and "misdescribing" is just shit you made up. EEng 04:43, 31 August 2021 (UTC) You're a persistent cuss, pilgrim!

Count this as a gentle reminder to all involved that conversations about user conduct are best held at user talk pages. Will new entrants to this discussion, looking to make up their minds about this point of style, benefit from reading this exchange? Firefangledfeathers (talk) 02:29, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

Do-gooder. EEng 04:43, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

Pilgrim. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 04:46, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

Your mother wears army boots. EEng 05:20, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

• Why not use "Jesus' teachings"? GoodDay (talk) 02:48, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

  There are style guides that recommend that. But to do it we'd have to have a guideline calling out certain words, or classes of words (like Jesus) as special cases, and then you'd be right back in the soup we were in at the start of this thread. EEng 04:13, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

  Cool. GoodDay (talk) 04:22, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

  Anything else before the oracle closes for the evening? EEng 04:43, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

  No. I support using "Jesus' teaching" style. GoodDay (talk) 15:13, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

  @GoodDay - Because, depending on your belief system, the options for how many Jesuses there were are none or one; there aren’t any religions advocating a plural number. MapReader (talk) 04:57, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

  I'm an atheist. GoodDay (talk) 04:59, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

  I think the plural possessive of Jesus would be Gee-zus-uhz-ehz? EEng 05:23, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

  You see, EEng has his own idiosyncractic belief system. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:58, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

• I have reverted the change removing the pronouncability, as indeed EEng had already done. It is self-evident to me that constructions like "Jesus's disciples" and "Leeds's defence" are awkward due to their pronouncability, and it is entirely sensible to recommend that writers find a different way to phrase such things. Even if there are exceptions in other languages, English written text is a representation of spoken text, and to be "brilliant and refreshing", our prose needs to reflect that by flowing off the page in both written and spoken form. The point about screen readers and accessibility is also clearly an important one. The advice about avoiding awkward possessives has been around forever and is an integral part of the MOS, so it at least needs a formal RFC to change it, rather than a WP:LOCALCONSENSUS of a few shows of hands in this thread. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 08:47, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

  English written text is a representation of spoken text – Jeesh, keep your voice down or you'll have Gloucester on your ass! EEng 11:44, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

  The policy that you linked does not support your own argument. It only says that "editors often propose substantive changes on the talk page first to permit discussion before implementing the change." I'd barely call this a substantive change (just one redundant sentence removed), and it certainly has been discussed on the talk page. I can't find anything about RfCs being mandatory for anything. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 09:23, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

  I agree. Does that mean that a talk page consensus for the MOS has to always have an RfC? Whhat’s proposed is hardly earth-shattering - it’s minor. Ignoring a talk page consensus and requiring an RfC is way over the top. DeCausa (talk) 10:18, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

@Amakuru: You have no standing to single-handedly stonewall a change supported by most participants here by imposing an artificial bureaucratic process that is not required by any Wikipedia policy, guideline, or practice, in what is essentially a WP:SUPERVOTE. See WP:NOTBURO. As for what is 'self-evident' to you, that is irrelevant. I have no trouble pronouncing 'Leeds's defence' or 'Jesus's disciples', and I never have done. If anything, 'Jesus' disciples' may well be more difficult to pronounce, as it deviates from the norm! These phrases may be hard to pronounce for you specifically, but that does not mean they are hard to pronounce for anyone else, and this is exactly why this piece of guidance makes no sense whatsoever, as was said numerous times above. RGloucester — ☎ 13:13, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

It was far from single-handed. EEng had already reverted the change once. And several commenters above agree that the mentioned constructs are difficult to pronounce, and that the guideline is therefore part of what we should be advising readers. It is really not up to a handful of editors to overrride longstanding guidelines on good writing - which match other style guides by the way - without a formal request for comment. And this is nothing to do with me and whether I can pronounce things, this is a pre-existing guideline which obviously makes sense because it's been in use for years.  — Amakuru (talk) 13:26, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

The fact that numerous editors above have raised this issue at all is proof that this guideline does not 'obviously make sense'. Perhaps the problem is the specific examples given in our guidance. 'Jesus's' seems quite normal to me, but 'Waters's', as found in The Guardian style guide, is undoubtedly awkward. The Guardian specifies 's as the norm, even for words ending in s, but gives latitude to the writer to use ' where it 'helps', leaving it up to the writer's discretion. This is much more sensible than our present guidance, but still creates the problem of inconsistency based on the specific pronunciation capabilities of a given editor, which vary by region, dialect, and personal ability. In a global encyclopaedia how can we possibly justify guidance that discriminates based on the perceived correctness or awkwardness of a person's pronunciation? In any case, I am not in agreement that our present guidance is in alignment with style guides generally. The Chicago 16th edition that I have access to states: 'In a departure from earlier practice, Chicago no longer recommends the traditional exception for proper classical names of two or more syllables that end in an eez sound. Such names form the possessive in the usual way (though when these forms are spoken the additional s is generally not pronounced)'. This seems a much more sensible approach in a global encyclopaedia. RGloucester — ☎ 14:57, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

I am utterly flabbergasted that anyone would find either of those at all difficult to pronounce. --Khajidha (talk) 15:28, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

• Where's SMcCandlish when we need him? EEng 11:44, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

  Need a break from this place sometimes.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  16:35, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

• For the record, I've tracked it, and what is there now (more or less, I've not done a note-by-note check) is not something that has been in there forever; prior to this edit in January 2018, there was no comment about Jesus's being hard to pronounce; that Jesus' didn't get a closing s was due to tradition, not pronunciation. And the advice was focused "particularly" on inanimate objects, which does not describe "Jesus" in the name's most common use. The new wording was raised by this RFC at the Village Pump, but was made by proposer @Dicklyon: before the RFC had a formal closure. (As for the screen reader concern: Do screen readers have trouble pronouncing Jesus's? The one on my old Mac OS doesn't. It seems to me it would be easy for a device that isn't reliant on tongue movement.... not that I find it difficult myself, as someone who does rely on tongue movement. But perhaps Dicklyon, who has written about machine hearing, has some input on machine speech.) --Nat Gertler (talk) 13:30, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

  Dicklyon effected the change because the consensus was quite clear in the RFC, and nobody then objected. (Plus it was later closed as successful anyway). But the fact that the clause was established through RFC means it's all the more imperative that an RFC be held to remove it.  — Amakuru (talk) 13:39, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

  A focused discussion is difficult with people insisting that constructions no more difficult to pronounce than “molasses” or “promises” are apparently unpronounceable. Except that the fact we have such differing individual views on pronounceability does bring home what a pointless criterion it is for determining punctuation within the MoS! MapReader (talk) 16:15, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

  You're off by one s. The parallel to Jesus's is not muhl-ass-uss but muhl-ass-uss-izz (as in "mollasses's viscosity"). On the other hand, the possessive of promises is promises' i.e. prom-iss-izz. EEng 16:52, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

  I’ve often wondered what the possessive of the Court of St James's is. Court of St James’s’s guards or Court of St James’s’ guards? DeCausa (talk) 17:51, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

  The relevant point is that if some people, like me, think that these constructions are easily pronounceable, and others appear to think they are impossible to pronounce, then pronounceability can never be a sensible determinant of anything. MapReader (talk) 18:55, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

  Well if this sentence came to be through an RfC then I kinda do understand why you'd want another one to remove it, even though I predict that nothing of value would come from such a discussion, and even though I still dislike the bureaucracy. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 21:19, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

  The January 2018 change that I made was a great simplification (basically, always use 's for a singular possessive) in accord with most modern style guides and the clear consensus at the RFC. I didn't particularly like the bit about hard to pronounce (because it never is), but that was for people who think it is, to have an alternative to just using the apostrophe without the s. That is, if you don't like the possessive with 's, rewrite. And what is molasses's viscosity, if I may ask? One thing I learned in that RFC discussion, if I recall correctly, is that there are people who pronounce a final apostrophe as if it's 's, and then they want to add another 's pronunciation for the s. I.e. Jesus's they would read as Jesus uz uz. That is, some people don't know how to read written English, and want to see it written differently as a result. I had not imagined that such existed. And this was not 2020, so they don't have that excuse! Dicklyon (talk) 04:50, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

1. Thanks to everyone participating in the discussion in a constructive manner so far.
2. Let’s take a step back and wonder what an MoS is about. Is it supposed to be a comprehensive guide to all style issues that might occur? No. The introduction currently says “New content added to this page should directly address a persistently recurring style issue.” I hardly doubt there are/were conflicts on grounds of pronunciation. Worse: The current situation fuels/provokes conflicts as Bruno Mars recently showed. Frankly, I myself would not revert an edit changing the wording to one form or another. I deem it unnecessary, not an improvement regarding encyclopedic content, but otherwise it’s tomayto, tomahto. “The waitress’s attire” and “the attire of a waitress” both convey the same meaning just as well. Space is not a concern here, ¬paper.
3. The “no new content unless really necessary” policy already existed at Special: Diff/819210420. It read “Any new content added to the body of this page should directly address a style issue that has occurred in a significant number of instances.” Why is this rule in place? I suppose because the MoS is already quite a mammoth. For a project that’s based on volunteers too many rules are rather stifling, you know what I mean? Let’s KISS, shall we? Remove this clause from the text. I can infer from previous comments that Map Reader, Jochem van Hees and Nat Gertler second this point.
4. I suggest to take a look at grammar references. For instance Michael Swan’s Practical English Usage § 432. There is no documented preference for either style simply based on subjective difficulties in pronunciation, hence one’s ideolect.
5. Lastly, and I can’t stress this enough, but written English ≠ spoken English. RGloucester already wrote that. It is OK and there will always be differences between how people speak and how they write a language. This attempt in uniting them is doomed to fail.
   ‑‑ K (🗪 | ✍) 22:59, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

• Dicklyon is right above, that we were very close to a consensus of going for the straight ‘s in all cases (which reflects best practice in many guides) except for a minority hangup over pronounceability, which left us with a rather unhelpful sentence in the MoS. The ability to reword a sentence is always open to editors - it doesn’t need ‘permission’ from the MoS - and resting the facility to do so on the impossible-to-judge question of pronounceability is where the compromise within the last discussion went wrong. Editors should be able to write about the teachings of Jesus even if they can pronounce it the other way around. MapReader (talk) 05:16, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

• Hopefully not late the party on this but I'm not in favour of removing the passage in question; yes you can get hung up on what is or isn't difficult to pronounce but that's not really the meat of it to me; having it spelt out concisely that it's okay to restructure a sentence to avoid a direct possessive is worth noting. Maybe someone would care to change the wording of it, but an explicit instruction that it's worth considering "the teachings of Jesus" over "Jesus's teachings" is a good point to retain here. Gʀᴀᴘᴘʟᴇ ^ˣ 21:44, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

  Allowing people to restructure things is not something "worth noting". It is a fundamental part of what a wiki is. People really don't need the MOS's permission to make sentences easier to read in their opinion. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 22:20, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

  And yet, is there harm in spelling it out? I don't see the gain in not stating it, whereas I do see the gain in stating it. Gʀᴀᴘᴘʟᴇ ^ˣ 22:33, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

  WP:CREEP. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 22:34, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

  The removed passage is 170 characters in total including wikimarkup, is this really instruction creep or simply a brief gloss? I'm not in favour throwing out baby to save a thimbleful of bathwater. Gʀᴀᴘᴘʟᴇ ^ˣ 22:40, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

  Instruction creep is pretty much never a big block of text that is entirely meaningless. This is exactly what creep means: small changes, over time, each amounting to the problem. There is no baby here, only bathwater. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 23:17, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

  That's not what this was. Not "small changes, over time, each amounting to the problem", but rather a big change that was a great simplification relative to all the weird considerations that were there before. That was how we accommodated the RFC inputs. That said, I have no objection to further simplification if that's what people prefer here. Dicklyon (talk) 04:49, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

• I'll generally concur with removal. The important part of the sentence under discussion is the instruction to write around conflict, and that's the first "rule" of MoS, in its lead. So, it's not really necessary to repeat it here, much less to use a flimsy rationale to do so, like alleged pronuncation difficulty. PS: No, the plural of "St. James's" isn't "St. James's's"; I don't think any reputable work would ever use such a construction. "St. James's" is already a contraction of something longer ("St. James's Gate", etc.), so use the longer name, or write "of St. James's", or otherwise write around the problem. This is not difficult, and we have better things to do than entertain argument-for-sport (cf. WP:NOT#FORUM) that attempts to make it seem difficult.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  16:35, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

I'm a little hesitant to venture into MOS territory with your 200+ archived talk pages but here goes. I'm coming across some old pages that have titles like "Wikipedia talk / Manual of Style" with two extra spaces, one on either side of the slash/diagonal. I checked the article and these spaces aren't repeated in the article when the subject is mentioned. I fixed the first incident I came across because I thought it was a mistake but now I'm running into other examples and so I thought I'd check here and ask if this is standard practice (or was) and I should not correct the unnecessary spaces in the article titles when I come across them. Thanks. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 05:36, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Just in case you wanted to see an example, one would be Aoraki / Mount Cook. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 05:39, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Just a guess here: maybe its a New Zealand thing? I go to the New Zealand MoS and there's an example. Wikipedia:Naming conventions (New Zealand)#Dual and alternative place names under dual names. Not sure if it's policy or what, though. Masterhatch (talk) 09:47, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

A forward slash in an article title indicates a subpage; there are no spaces around the slash because the slash is there to separate the subpage name from the main page name. However, subpages are not a thing in the mainspace, where article titles are supposed to have natural English titles. So it is perfectly fine to put spaces around a slash there, following English punctuation rules. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 10:30, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Okay, then, that's what I needed to know. I won't go around around and "correct" elements that aren't obvious mistakes. I thought I received a good education but I clearly didn't learn all the English punctuation rules so I'm glad there is a talk page here to ask. Thank you. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 23:21, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Part of the issue is that they vary over time, by region, by topic, and by claimed "authority". It's probably not possible to know them all, and many of them will conflict when any of those variables are changed. However, it's very dubious that the NZ naming conventions page (alleged to be a guideline though I doubt it was subject to a WP:PROPOSAL process) should be recommending page titles like "Aoraki / Mount Cook". Our article titles policy says to use one name, and the prefer the most common in English-language sources (which may change over time, resulting in an article rename). WP guidelines cannot contradict WP policies (see WP:P&G). Odds are that for this specific case the common name is "Mount Cook" and will eventually become "Aoraki" as preference for the original native name increases. This is not limited to NZ; similar geographic-feature renamings are happening in the US and Canada, and possibly in other places (and Canada has already long had the issue of places with differing names in English and French, too; we use the English one in most cases, and do not have dual-named articles with slashes in them). All that said, article titling isn't entirely an MoS issue, but should probably be raised at WT:AT, and moves/renames discussed via WP:RM.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  00:37, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

On some articles about places I see text diagrams describing which places are nearby. Examples:

• Sale,_Greater_Manchester#Geography (collapsed 'navbox' thing which uses Template:Adjacent communities)
• Brisbane (infobox, "Location" text field)
• Hunter Region (at the bottom of the infobox, the table with heading "Localities around Hunter Region")

Is this stuff honestly helpful for a reader? Maybe in ~2005, but these days (given Google Maps exists and so does Wikipedia:Mapframe maps in infoboxes) I feel like it's a really hard-to-parse format with zero benefit to readers. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 18:52, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

I only know "Localities around …" from ((Infobox Australian place)) where there are widely used. I'm not aware of any discussions to remove them from the template. Given the increasing number of Wikipedia readers on mobile devices, presenting this information in an infobox is preferable to a navigation box which is not visible on mobile devices. Mapframes don't seem to work for most locations using ((Infobox Australian place)). -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 04:26, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

These things really are outdated claptrap. It's been suggested before to delete or deprecate ((Adjacent communities)) and some similar templates, but they were rather narrowly kept. I think a new push to remove them would succeed if they were no longer embedded in other templates. The fact that infoboxes can support a roughly similar feature, and the fact that various articles are doing completely different things in an attempt to provide information like this, is a strong indication that the navbox templates for this should go away, and that table-based simulations of them should go away, leaving only the infobox implementation, if even that meets with consensus to retain it.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  00:42, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

There's an ongoing discussion at Talk:Body mass index#Boundaries between categories that may benefit from some attention from experienced MOS editors. Essentially, BMI categories like Normal and Overweight are variously described by reliable sources, with some using ”18.5 – 25” and ”25 – 30”, respectively, while others use ”18.5 – 24.99” and ”25 – 29.99”. MOS:RANGES doesn't actually recommend how adjacent ranges of values in a continuum should be displayed. The article had previously used the former style, but it's now been changed to the latter, which arguably leaves gaps. Also, using a decimal precision of 0.1 (or 0.01) when it comes to BMI values is like weighing a fart. The discussion, such as it is, is like watching ping pong. As I see it, there's no real consensus either way at the moment, so the more opinions the merrier. Cheers. nagualdesign 22:54, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

This is a self-contradictory argument. If x.99 is so precise it's like weighing a fart then it cannot be said that x.99 (versus something much more precise like x.9999999) leaves gaps in any meaningful sense. This is much preferable to having overlapping and directly contradictory values as in ”18.5 – 25” and ”25 – 30”, which results in the reader having no idea how 25 is classified.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:10, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Is 25 classified? Does it need to be? If it is the actual border between two ranges, then it obviously represents the transition from one to the other and you should alter your behavior to move your own BMI in the direction you want to go. -Khajidha (talk) 11:24, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

The MOS doesn't give a clear statement on what tense to use for an old gameshow or documentary series. Would it be closer to "products or works that have been discontinued" (which should be written in the present tense) or "periodicals that are no longer being produced" (which should be past tense)? Checking for examples of usage across Wikipedia articles on prominent shows, I'm finding both tenses used. --Lord Belbury (talk) 10:33, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

I believe that even for non-fiction work, it still is a programme, but its broadcast information would be past tense ("X is a 19xx documentary series that aired on Channel Q", that sort of thing). 𝄠ʀᴀᴘᴘʟᴇ X 10:37, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

TV shows were discussed when we made the change for periodicals (Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 220 § WP:WAS and defunct magazines) at WP:WAS, but I don't know that the RFC discussed at that time ever went ahead. I think the underlying question is the same as for print materials. Are we describing a work that still exists and is consumed in a semi-regular way (i.e., not just archival access), or describing an enterprise that has ceased? News shows would clearly be analogous to periodicals, so "The Huntley–Brinkley Report was an American evening news program". Documentary series tend to be much less ephemeral than news, so "Civilisation is a 1969 television documentary series". Game shows are also commonly aired in reruns, including years after the fact, so I would tend to use "is" for them as well (if the episodes haven't been lost).--Trystan (talk) 13:34, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

I would tend to agree that non-fiction shows intended to be treated as periodicals, their content reflecting on current information of the last day/week since the last airing, should be treated in past tense if they are no longer in production. This would include news programs (including programs like "Meet the Press" and "60 Minutes") and daytime and late night talk shows (eg "The Oprah Winfrey Show" and "The Tonight Show"). Non-reality game shows (thinking of daily-produced shows like "Price is Right" and "Jeopardy") are a bit of a different beast as while it is true they can be found in reruns, they tend to also be treated as changing with the times and were generally produced without consideration of reruns, and to that end, I'd consider those past tense where appropriate. --Masem (t) 13:57, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

I moved "List of man-made disasters in South_Korea" to "List of human-caused disasters in South_Korea". I note the Gender-neutral language section overleaf.

Now there's friction at the talkpage. Anyone care to give an opinion (here or at that talkpage)? Tony (talk) 09:22, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

Nothing wrong with man-made. It is still the most common usage in English, and believe it or not, it IS gender neutral. Masterhatch (talk) 13:44, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

I would generally agree "man-made" still is one of those terms that is recognizes as not pushing a gender, and the switch to "human-made" is awkward. In this specific case, it may be possible to suggest "List of anthropogenic disasters..." if there really is issue with that. --Masem (t) 13:49, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

I also would prefer "anthropogenic". Putting aside the gendered aspect, it seems awkward to describe ferry accidents as "man-made" or "human-made" disasters. Humans were involved, but the only thing they made was a serious error. pburka (talk) 13:55, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

Per [12] man made: "manufactured, created, or constructed by human beings", not sure how that excludes women. "Man-made" is short for mankind, i.e. humans as a whole for just "men".  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 13:59, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

In some cases artificial works as a synonym (as at swimming pool). I don't think that particularly works in that title there. --Izno (talk) 14:52, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

True, but sometimes that carries the wrong implications. I think "man-made" is still ok, per others above. It's much clearer than the alternatives in most cases - how many people understand "anthropogenic"? I think "human-caused disasters" is the best for that page though, though User:Tony1 was completely (and typically, I'm afraid) wrong to move it without discussion. He can't have thought that would be uncontroversial. Johnbod (talk) 14:56, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

And Johnbod is being (typically, I'm afraid) insulting. Tony (talk) 00:04, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Don't dodge the issue - if you stop doing this stuff, I won't need to keep pointing it out. It wasn't relevant to mention how rude you often are yourself (see ANI archives) - perhaps now it is. Johnbod (talk) 03:47, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

yeah, he's been around long enough to know about the MOS retaining existing styles. Masterhatch (talk) 15:06, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

Right, as regard "anthropogenic". Nobody knows what that means. Step outside your shoes here, people. (On the proximate matter, "human caused" is preferable IMO, but only because "man-made" seems a bit off in this particular context). Herostratus (talk) 15:08, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

Erm, we have a strong predilection to the gender-neutral. MOS:RET doesn't apply in such cases. Izno (talk) 15:42, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

It's WP:RM that applies, and that makes no concessions to supposed PC. Johnbod (talk) 16:09, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

RM is neither policy nor guideline; WP:BOLD is. (Mind you, I don't care about this particular article - simply commenting that the RM process is not mandatory.) Wikipedia:Article_titles#Considering_changes is policy I suppose, so take that fwiw. Izno (talk) 16:13, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

As an interesting point on "anthropogenic", I was looking at what other articles started with "list of man-made..." and found that the redirect List of man-made disasters points to Anthropogenic hazard. So we sorta already support that. (The other two cases, List of man-made objects on the Moon goes to List of artificial objects on the Moon (which makes sense from above) and List of man-made mass poisoning incidents which is just there). --Masem (t) 16:20, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

Anthropogenic hazard is a man-made disaster of a title! Johnbod (talk) 03:47, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Can we use “man-made” if all the items listed were made by human males? Blueboar (talk) 15:58, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

"man-made" has not just been applied to disasters. Once upon a time, it was applied to ice. Man-made ice was different from the one transported from the arctic and stored in ice houses. Now because pretty much all ice consumed by humans is human-made we just call it ice; "artificial ice," is now reserved for the one underfoot in rinks. In the early days of rayon or nylon, it was called man-made fiber; now it is just artificial or synthetic fiber; man-made grass or turf is artificial turf; man-made lakes are artificial lakes; man-made flavors are imitation flavors; man-made leather or fur is faux; man-made flowers are fake or artificial; man-made gems are imitation gems. So man-made has been continued to be replaced by gender-neutral terms for nearly 100 years now. And it doesn't just apply to Homo sapiens. The national bird of India used to be the peacock. But on WP it is now peafowl based on the principle that a national bird can't be born of a mother who is not. The European Parliament says in its pamphlet on gender-neutral language, "the use in many languages of the word 'man' in a wide range of idiomatic expressions which refer to both men and women, such as manpower, layman, man-made, statesmen, committee of wise men, should be discouraged. With increased awareness, such expressions can usually be made gender-neutral." I think the page move was needed because gender-neutral terms are inevitable. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:56, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

"Anthropogenic" sounds good to me. Tony (talk) 00:06, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

"Anthropogenic" is too sesquipedalian to be used in an article title. WP:COMMONNAME y'know. ~Anachronist (talk) 04:27, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Yes, we should avoid 'man-made' per existing language in MOS:GNL. I can't immediately generate an example of a usage of 'man-made' that wouldn't clearly or precisely be covered by 'human-made', 'human-caused', or a similar construction. If there continue to be 'man-made'-specific style disputes, I would support an explicit mention in GNL. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 02:30, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Fiber, grass, and lakes listed in my post above have been purposefully made by humans. Disasters have typically not. So, "anthropogenic" (OED: originating in or caused by human activity) is certainly more accurate independent of the gender bias issue. "Anthropogenic" is applied to climate change (OED example: 2008 S. Vanderheiden Atmospheric Justice i. 38 By the time George W. Bush took office in early 2001, the existence of anthropogenic climate change was acknowledged by broad scientific consensus.), or to deforestation (OED example: 1963 E. Pyddoke Scientist & Archaeol. iii. 67 West has suggested that at Hoxne a phase of deforestation might be anthropogenic.) But in terms of human purposefulness, a disaster is somewhere in between fiber and climate change. That is why this morning, I'm leaning more toward "human provoked disasters," (which has some currency in the literature). They were provoked by human activity or agency. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:22, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

PS So in terms of preference, I'd say: 1. "human provoked disasters" 2. "anthropogenic disasters" 3 "human-caused disasters." All are better than man-made. I don't buy that "anthropogenic" is unfamiliar. It might be a little, but probably not much more than "pandemic" was in 2019 (as opposed to epidemic). Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:32, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

All three of these (as well as "man-made disasters") seem to be used in reliable academic sources, so they satisfy WP:COMMONNAME. All three also satisfy MOS:GNL so I'd be fine with any of them. pburka (talk) 16:32, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

I probably should have clarified: my position above is focused on interpretation of our MOS, and the possibility that new language needs to be added to it for clarity. If I start to have an informed opinion on the list that's generated this discussion, I'll share it at the talk page. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 18:44, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

There is generally no problem with "man-made" in terms of gender neutrality, unless discussing specific objects made by an individual person. However, as noted above, there are in many cases different terms that are better for other reasons. Thryduulf (talk) 00:50, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

Under my interpretation of MOS:GNL, I would support using 'human-made' instead of 'man-made,' although I must admit it does sound a bit awkward, likely because it is not used in mainstream lexicon. However, using 'human' avoids either he/she, as set forth by MOS:GNL. Perhaps for each individual circumstance, we can consider alternative wording altogether, such as "artificial," which a user above has suggested. I also agree that 'anthropogenic' is an appropriate term in this case, which removes the need to use 'man-made' or 'human-made' at all, if causing contention. Alternatively, maybe in some cases, labelling something more specifically, like 'industrial disaster' avoids the issue, too. All in all, though, while there are alternatives, I see no reason to stick to the term 'man,' especially when MOS:GNL advises as such. Broadly, I see no harm done in using more gender-inclusive terminology in the English language more generally. Kind regards, PinkElixir (talk) 01:50, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

• Support either man-made (pithy, very common, and an alliteration that humans tend to like) , or human-made (more gender neutral, and still straightforward). Anthropogenic has its semantic merits, but as mentioned above is sesquipedalian and not commonly used in this context ("anthropogenic climate change" yes, "anthropogenic disasters" no).
  • A key question is whether wikipedia wants to follow the literature per our basic pillars, or be at the forefront of leading the change in the use of language according to new mores. Al83tito (talk) 03:24, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
• I'd support either man-made or anthropogenic. I feel I have to dip in here - I may be a trans guy, but trans I still am, and though the sentiment is admirable, this feels like a strange move to make.

'Man', in this instance, seems to refer pretty obviously to humans in general, in the same sense of the phrase "when man first landed on the moon"; though gender neutral language is something I pick up on, I don't think I'd be alone in saying this isn't relevant to gender neutrality, because the usage of the word is not in a gendered context. I feel it's far less gendered than a phrase like "you guys", to the point where I wouldn't classify 'man-made' as gendered at all. People refer to humankind as 'man' on the whole. Though it is in somewhat of an edging-on older, more grandiose sense, it's not an egregious turn of phrase.

However, I *would* imagine that 'anthropogenic' is a more *specific* turn of phrase than 'man-made'. I don't think it's too sesquipedalian for usage here at all. 'Anthropogenic' is close enough to 'anthropology' and 'anthropological' to be pretty clear at the very least what it probably means; something to do with humans, and human-caused disasters.

At any rate, 'human-made', though it doesn't have the word 'man' in it, doesn't feel like an improvement towards gender neutrality, it just feels like a sideways change. I'd much rather see people focus on replacing 'he or she' with 'they'...-- Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 16:18, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Ah, shit. 'Human' does have the word 'man' in it. There's a reason I didn't go to University for English Language Studies... -- Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 16:19, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

No, it does not have the word man in it. Consult any dictionary that has etymological information. Human entirely coincidentally has the character string m-a-n in it, but the word man and the word human have unrelated origins.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  00:58, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

• While I agree with observations that man has multiple uses in English, it probably cannot be escaped that some people will object to use of man to mean humans, including in man-[something] constructions, whether their objection is well-grounded or not. Ergo, it is better to use substitute terms like artificial, anthropogenic, human-[something], industrial, etc., and which to use will vary by context. There will be times that this may run into WP:COMMONNAME problems, but keep in mind WP:NTITLE and that COMMONNAME is just a restatement of WP:RECOGNIZABLE, which is only one of the five naming WP:CRITERIA. We can generally write around problems like this with some thought and judgment.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:06, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

  Agreed. I don't think there's a one-sizes-fits-all substitute but each use-case will have something more in keeping with MOS:GNL that would fit. 𝄠ʀᴀᴘᴘʟᴇ X 12:32, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

• Avoiding "man-[something]" or "man" when human or something else will do, in such a context when there are several alternatives is in keeping with GNL and it avoids the flowery over the specific, except in quotes, (in fact, individual men walked on the moon), or the ambiguous or archaic ('which man?' or 'which men?', or 'do you mean human?'). -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 11:20, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
• Keep using "man-made". Let's not adopt Justin Trudeau views, claiming we Canadians use "people-kind", rather then "man-kind". GoodDay (talk) 12:17, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
•  Disagree Man-made is perfectly fine to express something wouldn’t’ve occurred without human intervention. Actually, if you wanted to say something was caused exclusively by male humans, you would need to write men‑made. (PS: Shouldn’t it have read “huwoman-caused”? )‑‑ K (🗪 | ✍) 07:29, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Hello everyone! There is an ongoing RfC (currently with little participation) regarding MOS:ORDER, found here. I hope interested parties can partake in the discussion. Regards, IceWelder [✉] 12:05, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

Are the names of book publishers in citation templates no longer being linked to their Wikipedia pages? Was there an RfC about it? Why do I ask? Because of this edit performed with an AutoWikiBrowser. Pyxis Solitary (yak). L not Q. 13:51, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

It's certainly not a change I'm familiar with, nor one I've seen enacted across other articles either. Perhaps it was an error or an overzealous use of the AutoWikiBrowser tool out of context? Worth pinging @Colonies Chris: for feedback on it. 𝄠ʀᴀᴘᴘʟᴇ X 14:08, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Quoting from Template:Cite book/doc#Publisher:

"publisher: Name of publisher; may be wikilinked if relevant."

There's no benefit to the reader in wikilinking the publisher of a cited book, unless there are special circumstances to make the publisher particularly relevant. In this case, the links are to large generalist publishers, which have no special significance. Colonies Chris (talk) 14:18, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

I agree with that – it's not necessary to link publishers, and from what I see, the majority of editors don't link them. It can make for a sea of blue links in the citations also: authors, article or chapter title perhaps, book or website, then publisher (supposedly), on top of a book's ISBN. (And why not location too, if the approach is to link every linkable field?) JG66 (talk) 14:26, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

"There's no benefit to the reader in wikilinking the publisher of a cited book, unless there are special circumstances to make the publisher particularly relevant." Your personal opinion, of course. But your POV is not a policy and/or guideline. And as you pointed out with Template:Cite book/doc > Publisher: "Name of publisher; may be wikilinked if relevant. The publisher is the company, organization or other legal entity that publishes the work being cited." Obviously, you don't think it's relevant ... but I do — and probably the other editors who added book citations to the biography and wiki-linked book publishers. Pyxis Solitary (yak). L not Q. 14:48, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

It feels like the sort of link I wouldn't press someone to include, but also wouldn't actively remove either—this feels like a MOS:VAR issue at heart. 𝄠ʀᴀᴘᴘʟᴇ X 14:53, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

The whole point of the clause "may be wiklinked if relevant" is that merely being the publisher isn't sufficient relevance in itself. The key question is whether such a link would be of value to a reader. And these - to large generalist publishers - are not. Colonies Chris (talk) 15:18, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

What are examples where it might be relevant? Non-independent publishers? pburka (talk) 17:45, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

I have an answer for pburka but won't give it until this thread is moved to WP:Citing sources, where it belongs. Jc3s5h (talk) 19:58, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

The claim that "there is no benefit" to such links is not consensus, merely individual opinion. As such, these edits violate WP:CITEVAR and should not be performed en masse, nor at all without local consensus at the affected article. —David Eppstein (talk) 20:17, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

It's appropriate to discuss this here. MOS:LINKING applies. pburka (talk) 20:43, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Links to publishers seem neutral at worst. One more clickable thing in a part of articles already full of much more obscure and intimidating-looking clickable things (like the bizarre strings we call DOI's) won't make an article harder to read. And they can help the reader sort out issues like publishers' names changing, corporate acquisitions, etc. It can also be helpful sometimes when looking up a publisher to know which Wikipedia articles rely upon them. Is it necessary to include these links? No, I wouldn't insist upon it. Would I remove them when I find them? No. The editor who inserted them took the time to bother and implicitly finds them worthwhile. Don't like? Don't click. And yes, WP:CITEVAR applies. XOR'easter (talk) 22:03, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

The phrasing that's used in the MOS - Name of publisher; may be wikilinked if relevant - is an implicit statement that the default should be to not link. It's up to anyone who wants a publisher linked in a citation to justify how it's particularly relevant in any specific case. One can always make a case for any potential link that it might be useful to someone in some circumstances, but that's not enough in itself. The whole issue about overlinking arises because linking is often done on a 'because I can' basis rather than through careful thought about whether it would actually be useful. Colonies Chris (talk) 09:35, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

"The phrasing that's used in the MOS - Name of publisher; may be wikilinked if relevant - is an implicit statement that the default should be to not link." – Again, your interpretation; ergo, your POV. I see it differently. For me, the "may" in the guideline leaves the "yes or no" open to the interpretation of individuals. Is it relevant for me? Yes. Is it relevant for you? No. Your take and mine boil down to: "You say either and I say eyether, You say neither and I say nyther; Either, eyether, neither, nyther" .... Pyxis Solitary (yak). L not Q. 11:18, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

No, this is not just a POV matter. The phrasing in the MOS gives you freedom to link if relevant, but thereby places the onus on the linker to make a case for that link being specially relevant, beyond its obvious relevance as the publisher. If you want to argue the case that any specific publisher link in that article deserves to be retained because it has special relevance, go ahead, we can all discuss it. Colonies Chris (talk) 19:39, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

But as "relevant" is not a clear-cut term, it is a POV matter as one editor's view of relevance will not always be the same as another's; linking "if relevant" does not mean "only in exceptional circumstances". As such it still seems that this is a MOS:VAR/WP:CITEVAR issue, which would mean not to add them to articles which have deliberately omitted them, but also don't remove them for the sake of removal. 𝄠ʀᴀᴘᴘʟᴇ X 19:43, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

"If you want to argue the case that any specific publisher link in that article deserves to be retained because it has special relevance, go ahead, we can all discuss it." – I don't need to cherry-pick publishers and then debate which one gets the linking thumbs up. All that I am required to do when I edit Wikipedia is to follow its policies and guidelines. "If relevant" is open to the interpretation of individual editors. The use of "If" can be a conjunction or a noun -- either assumption or supposition. Pyxis Solitary (yak). L not Q. 13:43, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Agree with Pyxis Solitary here. The phrase ...if relevant makes this a matter of editorial judgement. Both addition of links and removal of preexisiting links should be done with such judgement, and not semi-automatically based on the assumption of a default state (here: unlinked) which doesn't exist. –Austronesier (talk) 17:15, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Yes, if relevant is a matter of editorial judgment. But clearly different editors make different judgments. That's why we need to have a discussion in each case where opinions differ, but we don't need one where no-one objects to a change. Of course the default state is unlinked - that applies to all potential links in general - links shoukld only be made for good reason - and specifically here, otherwise there would be no need for a clause suggesting when it may be linked. And the question of whether unlinking is done manually or semi-automated is a complete red herring. Any changes made by an editor using AWB or similar are always a matter of personal judgment and responsibility. These tools are productivity aids, not bots. Colonies Chris (talk) 10:47, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

"AWB or similar are always a matter of personal judgment and responsibility" Yeah too many people have been on the recieving end of AWB automated editing for that to be accurate. AWB is routinely used to make mass-edits to large amounts of articles where the principle for the edit task is considered (eg, publishers should by default not be linked), but no individual article-context judgement (is this link someone previously added relevant to this article) is exercised when the edit is actually made. I would wager with AWB that the complete opposite of the intent of your statement is more often the case. Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:56, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

This discussion has now descended into baseless accusations and a failure to WP:AGF. I'm out. Colonies Chris (talk) 07:51, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

If you take the descripion above of how AWB is routinely used as an 'accusation' specifically against you, that rather explains the problem other editors above seem to have in getting you to understand. When edits are made at 5 second intervals to groups of articles by AWB, the idea that the editor pushing the button is looking at the context of the change they are making each and every time is laughable. When this editing is about something clearcut such as changing a typesetters apostraphe to a typewriter's, the lack of individual consideration is not going to affect the outcome, as one is wrong and one is right. Where the editing involves something that has a nebulous judgement-value like 'relevance' for inclusion, claiming that the contextual relevance has been assessed in that 5 second interval before moving on to the next article is just not credible. Its not a matter of AGF any more than when someone says they did adequate WP:BEFORE checks when nominating a large amount of articles for deletion in a very short period of time. The principle is declared first, then the run of editing to bring articles in line with the principle is enacted. This is not a controversial description of routine usage of AWB. Only in death does duty end (talk) 08:18, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Over the past half-decade or so, member timelines for bands/artists have been more common. I remember initially seeing them around 2009, but they've been appearing more frequently lately. Examples can be seen on Mushroomhead's timeline, Onyx's timeline, Korn's timeline, Jawbox's timeline, GWAR's timeline, N.W.A.'s timeline, etc etc etc.

I'm very supportive of including these into articles. It gives an accessible glimpse at the history. But, has there been any agreements on the manual of style? Specifically, the colors? The reason I ask is because most timelines use different colors, and lately, I see editors changing the colors based on some sort of preference. Currently, the most common I'm seeing is (for bands): red for vocals, green for guitar, blue for bass, and orange for drums. Any other instruments are colored with purple, lime, brown, gray, etc.

My question is, when was there an agreement to use red, green, blue, and orange as the colors of the four main instruments? Specifically, orange is an odd choice, and it's not a huge contrast to the other three colors. In my opinion, it should be replaced with yellow.

Red, blue, green, and yellow are usually seen as the most common four-way combination. It's the combination used in basic painting/arts, its use is widespread publically for signs and logos, it's the model for the Natural Color System (and its many related subjects), all types of color blindness falls under Red-Green and Blue-Yellow spectrums, etc. So why is orange being used instead of yellow?

I know that this seems like a trivial thing, but my personal reasoning is because I'm partially color blind. The light orange used in the timelines looks extremely similar, if not the same, as the green. I know that I can't be the only one that struggles with this; however, if there was a valid discussion and a consensus reached, then I'd be fine with it. My personal problems are my own afterall. But I searched the archives and didn't find anything. Xanarki (talk) 01:35, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

After searching through WT:WikiProject Music, WT:Timeline standards and WT:WikiProject Musicians I finally found Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Musicians/Archive 8#Create Member Section/Timeline Standards. I haven't read it all, but I see it does mention drums=orange, so maybe that's what you're looking for. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 02:52, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Indeed it is, thanks for digging thru it. I see that they didn't take into account that green and orange can look similar (1 person brought it up though), but, everything else was tackled. Since it was 6 years ago, I may move this there. Thanks again.Xanarki (talk) 03:45, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Some recent edits have been putting in "400-metres" for Olympic events, e.g. Ariarne Titmus. While it agrees with WP:HYPHEN, in my opinion it should be trumped by the fact that the Olympics and other sporting events rarely if ever include the hyphen. Thoughts? Adpete (talk) 09:17, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

We don't strictly follow sources' style guides. It also helps clear ambiguity: are we talking about a freestyle that is 400 metres long, or 400 freestyles that are a metre long? —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 20:44, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Surely WP:COMMONNAME applies, though? And while WP:COMMONNAME generally only applies to titles, we are left with the situation that the text doesn't match the title, e.g. Swimming at the 2019 World Aquatics Championships – Women's 400 metre freestyle, which in my opinion is poor style. Adpete (talk) 23:39, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

I don't think COMMONNAME applies really - not only is it just about article titles, but it's also about choosing the name that we're going to call something by, not about how to punctuate it (so it requires that we call our article 'Triple jump' rather than Hop, skip and jump). From my reading of MOS:HYPHEN, these changes are correct, and titles without the hyphen probably ought to be changed. (Or, if people don't like hyphens, per MOS:HANGING it's OK not to hyphenate if the units are abbreviated, so 400 m freestyle would be.) Girth Summit _(blether) 14:10, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

COMMONNAME does not apply. That only applies to article titles (which is why it's in the article titles policy and not the MoS), and it does not apply to style questions anyway. COMMONNAME is the policy that tells us to use a particular article title (in one spelling or another, which might be determined by MOS:ENGVAR or some other MoS criterion), e.g. David Johansen, rather that some totally different name, e.g. Buster Poindexter.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:38, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

The linked page uses the hyphen correctly, but "400-metres" in some other location is simply incorrect and is likely a result of hypercorrectness. The plural can't be correctly attributive. That is, "400-meters event" is clearly wrong. Case 3 of Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Hyphens is the related case of correct use of a hyphen, and it specifically details in its third bullet why "400-meter event" is good and "event of 400-metres" would not be. Don't feel bad about this. Few professional journalists can get hyphens right in the analogous cases when they're reporting someone's age. NoNonsenseHumJock (talk) 22:24, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

RfC started at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Music#RfC on Track Listing sections in song articles. All comments are welcome. --TheSandDoctor ^Talk 03:05, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

Is using 'the latter' of 'the former' (as the subject of a sentence, not a point in time) a bad idea? Or indicative of a sentence that needs re-wording anyway?

For example in:

Rio 2016 Olympians Shōhei Iwamoto and Natsumi Tomonaga confirmed places each in the men's and women's event, respectively, with the former finishing fourth and the latter second among those eligible for Olympic qualification at the 2019 Asia & Oceania Championships in Kunming, China.

— https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_at_the_2020_Summer_Olympics#Modern_pentathlon

I would prefer something like:

Rio 2016 Olympians Shōhei Iwamoto and Natsumi Tomonaga confirmed places each in the men's and women's event, respectively, with Iwamoto finishing fourth and Tomonaga second among those eligible for Olympic qualification at the 2019 Asia & Oceania Championships in Kunming, China.

My objections:

1. It's poor for readability, you have to scan back and forth when reading, especially bad for screen readers and audio recordings, and even then the subject is often still unclear.
2. It's brittle, if someone adds another example to a list or re-orders the list, then the whole construct has to be re-written.
3. It's potentially harder to understand text out of context for e.g. 'did you know'

I'm tempted to edit these out whenever I see them, is there any existing discussion/guidance on this that I should take into account?

JeffUK (talk) 17:15, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

• Both sound fine to me, but I exercise caution when I repeat names in a sentence, as it can sound redundant. If I want to do a little repetition, I would personally go for:

  Rio 2016 Olympians Shōhei Iwamoto and Natsumi Tomonaga confirmed places in the men's and women's events respectively: Iwamoto finished fourth, and Tomonaga second among those eligible for Olympic qualification at the 2019 Asia & Oceania Championships in Kunming, China.

  —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 18:18, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
• Former and latter are way overused. In most cases they're simply one more form of WP:ELEVAR. The OP's rewrite is best. Tenryuu's rewrite is missing a comma after second (or you can omit the comma after fourth). EEng 19:31, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
  • I tend to agree, but is there a proposal here? Are we just commenting in general, or is a MOS rule forthcoming? If the former, is this the right forum? If the latter, don't we normally avoid being overly-proscriptive in MOS? --A D Monroe III^(talk) 20:35, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

    I definitely agree "latter/former" is rarely a good prose choice (see Wikipedia:The_problem_with_elegant_variation#Latter_/_former). I also feel it probably doesn't need to be in the MOS. Popcornfud (talk) 21:09, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

• I rarely see them on WP, perhaps too rarely. They are often better than repeating names, especially when only one of them is needed. This may be an ENGVAR style thing. Certainly no MOS change needed. Johnbod (talk) 22:18, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
• No nothing wrong with using 'Latter' and 'Former', avoids repetitive tedious language. Also please do not cite ELEVAR at me, it is a user essay.  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 14:03, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

  Wow, someone sure got up on the wrong side of the style manual this morning, you have a comma splice too. Linking to a user essay informs (or reminds) our fellow editors of a particular line of reasoning without its having to be tediously pasted in; that's what essays are for. EEng 14:39, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

There isn't anything fundamentally wrong with latter and former when referering to things that are sequential. But when one is referring to a sequence of words in the sentence, then it can be a sign of verbosity and complexity that could be eliminated with a rewrite. The proposed sentence is way too long and confuses the reader by combining "came fourth" and "came second" about separate events. The facts:

• Both Shōhei Iwamoto and Natsumi Tomonaga were Rio 2016 Olympians.
• Both compete in the modern pentathlon and sought qualification at the 2019 Asia & Oceania Championships in Kunming, China
• Iwamoto came fourth in the mens event
• Tomonaga came second in the womens event
• Both successfully qualified to compete at the 2020 Summer olympics.

There are lots of way to write this to minimise redundancy while keeping separate things separate. In particular, I think it is important to keep the mens/womens events/results separate. For a data-heavy article like this, it is probably best to err on the side of short simple sentences, than attempting beautiful flowing prose. The reader is skimming for facts, not reading to be entertained. -- Colin°^Talk 15:10, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

• I think it should be avoided wherever possible. I'm not talking about zero tolerance, but to only resort to it when repetition of the names/terms becomes truly clunky and repetitious. This was an example I found unnecessary – imo, the use of former/latter there came across as affected, and so caused more problems than it solved. WP:ELEVAR makes some good points, I think, because there's nothing worse, as a reader, than coming across a page that reads as if it's been authored a little too fussily. JG66 (talk) 15:54, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
• Concur with EEng and Popcornfud. We have essays like ELEVAR to explain the reasons behind various good/bad writing choices, so we don't have to WP:CREEP-bloat MoS with rules that virtually no one actually needs. "ELEVAR is just an essay not a rule" is completely missing the point. See WP:MOSBLOAT: we don't want a rule about anything that doesn't need to be one. If something can be resolved on a case-by-case basis just by applying common sense, then we don't need a rule about it, and need to not have a rule about it.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  04:49, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

• To respond to the initial question, yes, the way you have written it is a bad idea. The sentence as you wrote it is not proper encyclopedia style. The goal in encyclopedia writing is to express ideas in the simplest, most direct manner so as to aid in the reader's understanding.

Your sentence "Rio 2016 Olympians Shōhei Iwamoto and Natsumi Tomonaga confirmed places each in the men's and women's event, respectively, with the former finishing fourth and the latter second among those eligible for Olympic qualification at the 2019 Asia & Oceania Championships in Kunming, China" is very badly written.

It should be written "Rio 2016 Olympians Shōhei Iwamoto and Natsumi Tomonaga confirmed places in the men's and women's events. Iwamoto finished fourth and Tomonaga finished second among those eligible for Olympic qualification at the 2019 Asia & Oceania Championships in Kunming, China." God bless and happy editing. MarydaleEd (talk) 03:04, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

My downcasing yesterday of Manned Maneuvering Unit was reverted because it is "capitalised as a proper noun". It is not a proper noun/name. cf "The award-winning manned maneuvering unit was designed for a specific type of mission: satellite rescue missions." – from a history of NASA. Tony (talk) 23:21, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

While manned maneuvering unit can certainly refer to the technology in general, in this particular usage, it's clearly referring to the proper noun: the Manned Maneuvering Unit previously used by NASA. It's especially clear the example is referring to the proper noun because the full sentence says: "Direct quotations and proper nouns that use gendered words should not be changed, like Manned Maneuvering Unit." Firefangledfeathers (talk) 02:06, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

Indeed, and if it's not proper noun then the MOS instructs us to write crewed maneuvering unit. pburka (talk) 03:23, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

Heck, it's a common noun even though there may be only one of them 'cause there are others, or there may be others. BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 05:39, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

Then we need a different example. pburka (talk) 14:16, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

The Manned Orbiting Laboratory seems to not have the same problem and stays within the same specific field too. 𝄠ʀᴀᴘᴘʟᴇ X 09:59, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters § Capitalization of degrees. ((u|Sdkb)) ^talk 01:15, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

"[The] best practice is to have the word 'template' just after ((TemplateName)); not all readers know ((...)) refers to a template (and even less newcomers".

Am I the only one who thinks Antoine Legrand is making unnecessary edits? (See diffs A, B, C, and more in the History page.) Do we really have to state a million times that ((...)) indicates a template. To me, this is like writing, "Mandela was born in the year 1918" instead of simply stating that "Mandela was born in 1918".—Fezzy1347^{Let's chat} 21:43, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

I agree, I found the changes overly prolix. I think the vast majority of readers will recognize the curly brace syntax as denoting a template, and the few who don't recognize it can click the links and be taken to the template page. Looks like the changes have already been reverted. Colin M (talk) 23:26, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

There's nothing inherently wrong with writing "Mandela was born in the year 1918." except that "Mandela was born in 1918." is as understandable, and more concise. I do think, however, that it is odd to write "Mandy was born in 1918 year.", and perhaps, more comparable.--John Cline (talk) 00:21, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

With the ever increasing use of visual editor, I wouldn't assume that ((...)) means "template" to most readers. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 21:53, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

Keep in mind that the share of mobile devices is higher than that of desktop computers. There is no Page Previews, no mouseover on mobile devices and people are less likely to click on links when using a mobile device! — Antoine Legrand (talk) 20:31, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

As Firefangledfeathers advised me, I come to expose my arguments. As soon as I started my modifications, I had a brief exchange with him on my user talk page, and he found my initiative interesting.

I started to put the word template systematically after the curly braces because I had noticed that it was generally the case on other pages on Wikipedia. I thought that it would benefit newcomers who don't always know the meaning of curly braces. In retrospect, given the length of the MoS page (which is very long), it would take 70x template (tlx=70 times, in wiki markup) and I can understand that it would be too repetitive.

The problem with the MoS page is that it is extremely long and has many shortcuts. A visitor can arrive in the middle or at the end of the page.

My new proposal for the use of the word template is: make sure that at least the first two occurrences of ((tlx|TemplateName)) have the word template next to them, and this for each section of the MoS. Beginners who don't know the meaning of curly braces yet will be well informed. — Antoine Legrand (talk) 14:50, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

I would agree that the article is painfully long – but it does cover a lot of topics. Perhaps there should be another discussion about splitting it into manageable parts?
Regarding "template" – I suspect that most people who read the MOS page are already or intend to soon be an editor rather than being "just" a reader. As such, they probably will explore the links and so there is less need to explain all of the details in the article itself. Perhaps add "template" to only the first example ... — GhostInTheMachine ^{talk to me} 15:39, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

• Telling people that a template is a template isn't going to help them unless they click on it anyway in order to find out what the parameters are and so on, in which case they'll find out it's a template if they didn't already know that. And come to think of it, some newbie who doesn't know that braces indicate a template -- so we tell them it's a "template" -- what good does learning a name do them? We don't go around marking every HTML tag as an "HTML tag", we just tell people how to use them.
  This is a solution-which-isn't-a-solution in search of a nonexistent problem which it wouldn't solve even if the problem existed. There are lots of things in MOS which might puzzle the newcomer at first, but they rapidly pick them up, or there are Help: pages on the basics of editing they can consult; MOS cannot be self-explanatory, nor should it try. It's somewhat of a tutorial, but only where necessary -- mostly it's a reference work, and should stay that way. EEng 17:00, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
• Talking about "templates" doesn't help newcomers. Wikipedia's use of the term is very far from the non-IT meaning and from most IT uses. Read our article Template or ask a search engine to "define: template" and it'll take some time before you find a definition that suits the uses in the MOS. So instead we can show the reader some useful templates without calling them that, and the newcomer quickly understands that there are some very useful magic things that are easily recognised by their curly brackets. Long after seeing them while editing, long after using them, the not-so-new editor might dig deeper and discover our weird generic term for them, but that can wait. As it is, of the 51 times the body of WP:MOS uses "template", at least 19 are in the form "the ((whatever)) template" or "the template ((whatever))" and for the newcomer and the experienced editor alike, that's already too many. NebY (talk) 18:31, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting a rule (we have plenty already, and there's no need to micromanage everything), but do people really have to write like "[Random European explorer] was attacked by natives"? They're inhabitants. Local fighters. "Xians" where X is the name of the place or group. Or whatever. We don't say "When Lindbergh's ship entered New York harbor, many native vessels came out to greet it." "The British troops at Concord were attacked by natives." And like that. Herostratus (talk) 15:58, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

I beg to differ. Very common to use 'native' for people who are from somewhere. I am a native of Saskatchewan. And from here, this sentence, "The six-foot-four, 208-pound Montreal native has also..." So, yes "white people" are called natives when describing where there from. Native is not an offensive word and definately don't need a rule here, imho. Masterhatch (talk) 17:09, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Mnmh. I just changed

Portuguese explorer Ferdinand Magellan arrived in the area, claimed the islands for Spain, and was then killed by natives at the Battle of Mactan.

to

Portuguese explorer Ferdinand Magellan arrived in the area, claimed the islands for Spain, and was then killed by Lapulapu's fighters at the Battle of Mactan.

I consider the former to be bwana-speak. I don't like it. Herostratus (talk) 19:16, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

So how do you feel about Eleanor_Elkins_Widener#Second_marriage_and_South_American_adventures? EEng 19:20, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

The Widener article is directly quoting a 1920 newspaper. Language changes over time. pburka (talk) 20:13, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

I know -- I wrote it. <bows, acknowledges applause> What you just said was the point I wanted to make (plus it's fun). EEng 23:02, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

I agree with your approach. I don't think a rule is necessary, unless we're seeing a lot of pushback against these common-sense fixes. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 20:23, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

What do we feel about Alaska Natives or Native Americans or Native Hawaiians. I’m aware that North Americans quite often say “a native of x” (Masterhatch refers to it above) which is not a formulation we tend to use in British English. But if you’re not North American it can be confusing about when it’s used acceptably and when it’s ‘bwana-speak’. DeCausa (talk) 21:14, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

I agree that this word is used offensively in the example given at the top. The advice at MOS:IDENTITY is to "use specific terminology", and your examples seem to me to be redeemed in proportion to the specificity they offer. William Avery (talk) 21:35, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Cripes! The MoS natives are revolting! We British have to be firm! Martinevans123 (talk) 21:38, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

The Native Americans article is a disambiguation page and has been for a long time; see this and this. The Alaska Natives and Native Hawaiians articles both use the term indigenous early on to clarify the usage of the term native in the article title. The lead sentence of the Indigenous peoples article reads: "Indigenous peoples, also referred to as first people, aboriginal people, native people, or autochthonous people, are culturally distinct ethnic groups who are native to a place which has been colonised and settled by another ethnic group." I think we're wasting time here and maybe feeding a troll. Consider that comment rhetorical and call me insensitive -- I don't fancy being drawn into a discussion abut this. Call some others oversensitive. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 22:39, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

A native troll, one hopes. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:50, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Good grief, Wtmitchell. that's not how we talk here. Nobody's drawing you into any discussion, go do something else if you'd rather. Herostratus (talk) 02:26, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

I don't know how to easily locate or quantify such uses of "native" but maybe "the natives" is a richer seam ("the natives charged the Europeans", "Fearing a massacre by the Natives"). It seems over 7,000 of our articles include "the natives" in the text. There's a great mixture but at first glance, most uses are of non-Europeans that Europeans are encountering, killing or being killed by, trading with, governing and so on. NebY (talk) 01:23, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

Well yeah, I'm only talking about certain circumstances. I know that "native of Manchester" and "Native Americans" and many other used of the term "native" is OK. I'm talking about some specific uses where it's not excellent. As you say, there are some circumstances, particular when describing European invaders interfacing with people who were pretty much minding their own business somewhere, where there is the danger that using the "native" conjures up the image of an unorganized mass of ignorant savages. Probably because it's the same construction as used in the time of Queen Victoria I guess. So I mean compare

Portuguese explorer Ferdinand Magellan arrived in the area, claimed the islands for Spain, and was then killed by natives at the Battle of Mactan.

to

In June 1940, the German First Army thrust into northern France, where it was counterattacked by natives.

I mean both of the above are correct, but you're not going to see the second one are you. Now why is that.

I get that people have been writing like this forever and its a habit, and fine, but it's occurred to me that not a good one maybe. It's not huge deal, and I'm not advocating a rule. Every gosh-darn thing doesn't have to be a rule. I'm just pointing out that here's a thing. I just noticed this myself just recently, and I'm sharing my thought and making a suggestion. You all are free to ignore it. Herostratus (talk) 02:23, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

We should look to the RS on this. This is what the Cambridge English Dictionary says for native as a noun

a person born in a particular place ‘He was a native of Indianapolis and a graduate of Indiana University’.

dated: A native is also a person who was born and lived in a country before Europeans began to visit and live there

Note: This use is considered offensive.

DeCausa (talk) 07:09, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

Well, even without this confirmation from a dictionary, the package of associations that comes with "European explorer X was welcomed/killed/etc. by (the) natives" is quite different from the usage of "native" in other contexts. It is the kind of language you'd exepct from this guy, but not from a 21th century encyclopedia. –Austronesier (talk) 08:12, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

With the summary "verb form", Doremo has removed an amount of "would" from my article Teikō Shiotani. Each is of the word "used to indicate futurity in the past, futurity relative to the time referred to by the preterite" (CaGEL, p.198). It now seems to me that I did somewhat overuse what I'll call "futurity would", so I agree with some of the changes; but as an example of a use I still consider (mildly) beneficial:

In 1922, Shiotani married Sadako Inoue (井上貞子, 1905–1988). They would have / had three sons, Sōnosuke (宗之助, b. June 1923), Reiji (玲二, November 1926 – March 1927) and Makoto (誠, August 1940 – September 1945); and two daughters, Yūko (優子, b. February 1930) and Yōko (陽子, b. July 1934).

The intention here was a subtle indication to the reader that the narrative is not here jumping ahead to the 30s, 40s or wherever; rather, that we're merely making a little excursion from the early 20s.

Clearly the "core meaning" of the sentence with "had" (Doremo) is the same as that of the sentence with "would have" (me) (i.e. there's no imaginable series of events such that one version of the sentence is true and the other false); and clearly the nuance here is subtle and its desirability hardly worth a discussion thread. But the clearing of instances of futurity would puzzles me. Is my idiolect unusual (perhaps outdated)? Is futurity would a part of your Standard English too, but somehow ill-suited to encyclopedic prose? (Is it what Tony1 might call mere fluff?) -- Hoary (talk) 22:11, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

Don't know about anyone else, but the simple "had" there reads to me as if all those children existed at the time of the marriage and not that they were the later results of the marriage. The version with "would have" seems much better to me.--Khajidha (talk) 23:34, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

Khajidha – Don't you need "had had" (past in past) to convey that? Tony (talk) 23:49, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

Yes indeed, or "already had", or "had by then" or .... EEng 00:01, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

Consider In 1973 he relocated to Waynesville, North Carolina, where he would die died of cancer. Surely you're not suggesting that the died form implies he was dead when he moved. EEng 00:01, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

[edit conflict] "X married Y. They had Z children." is the idiomatic form. Written in this order it always means that the children were born after the marriage, because the two sentences are in the same tense ("They had Z children" is simple past, not past perfect.) "They would have" is pretentious and generally unnecessary. "They had had" would^hah! indicate by its change of tense that the children were pre-marriage. —David Eppstein (talk) 00:05, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

"Already had" or "had by then" would be preferable if the children existed at the time of the marriage, but the simple "had" still reads that way to me. As for the "relocated to Waynesville, NC, where he died" reads to me that he died pretty much immediately after the move. --Khajidha (talk) 00:31, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

To be blunt, the examples in your diff are in the main wretched. (I'm not saying one or two might not be appropriate, but I doubt it.) In any writing (encyclopedic or otherwise), would has a very (very) occasional role in signaling a temporary glimpse of the future where the reader might otherwise be puzzled or misled. Even one instance of inappropriate use is tiresome. See WP:INTOTHEWOULDS. EEng 00:11, 25 September 2021 (UTC) P.S. CaGEL isn't meant to be a style guide (and from what I've heard isn't very good at being what it is meant to be either).

Relatedly, I see the phrase "would later" in the diff, and searching Wikipedia finds some 55k instances of that phrase. Isn't this always a pleonasm? If one is using "would" to indicate a temporary futurity, how is it possible for it to be anything but later? —David Eppstein (talk) 00:33, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

I mean, it was fine before, it was fine after. On that basis it's roiling the text, so on that basis you are (of course) entitled to roll it back per WP:BRD and ask the editor to make his case on the article talk page. Or, since it's not worse, you could just roll your eyes and forget it. Your call.

If anybody wants to get consensus to make a rule about this, I suppose she can try. I'd be against it because both are fine and so why. Herostratus (talk) 01:51, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

Absolutely not. Heavens to Betsy! EEng 01:59, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

It's salutary to hear that examples within what I wrote "are in the main wretched", and I take the point about pleonastic "later". Of course CaGEL isn't a style guide (and doesn't pretend to be one), but I am surprised to read that persons unspecified are saying that this hefty book "isn't very good at being what it is meant to be". I cited it not in the hope of demonstrating that my version was optimal, stylish or whatever; merely to demonstrate (perhaps primarily to myself) that futurity would was an established pattern. I'm confident that it's acceptable (perhaps even desirable) in appropriate contexts. I asked here not about its grammaticality (or "correctness") but about its use in Wikipedia. The immediate trigger was my noticing the diff I pointed to; but if I remember correctly, I'd previously seen other instances of (to me, surprisingly) impatient would-chopping. Above, I see "pretentious" and "[e]ven one instance of inappropriate use is tiresome": the animus directed at what I'd considered an innocuous (and sometimes useful) use of would astonishes me. But the animus is there, so I'll try to reduce my use of futurity would. -- Hoary (talk) 02:59, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

Part of the animus stems from the fact that the construction is a favorite of hacks who think it makes their writing sound fancy. EEng 06:17, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

It had to happen eventually. EEng, you have outed me as, yes, just another hack who fondly hopes that his writing will sound fancy. Guilty as charged. Further evidence: (i) I persistently write that a building is somewhere, rather than writing, as a good Wikipedian should, that it is located somewhere. Thanks to this obscurantism, the poor reader is left wondering if it's strewn there, demolished there, buried there, vaporized there, or what. (ii) Rather than use the versatile, rugged word feature, I resort to what, IIRC, H W Fowler decries as "elegant variation", littering my prose with such gewgaws as have, include, and (for preposition featuring) with. -- Hoary (talk) 07:18, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

I didn't mean to include you in that. You've simply come under bad influences. BTW, see WP:LOCATIONLOCATIONLOCATION, WP:ELEVAR, WP:ASTONISHME, and WP:DIFFUSINGCONFLICT. EEng 16:04, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

So far I've only received thanks from various editors for removing excessive would. Would can be used to mark reported speech, hypothetical situations, habitual activity, and volition—and adding unnecessary usage for futurity in the past often risks confusing this with those functions of the verb. If a futurity-in-the-past would seems necessary, it can certainly be used, although there are also workarounds (e.g., "he would become" → "he later became"). I see no merit in using would with a time adverbial (e.g., "He would die in 1831") or for a mundane sequence of past events (e.g., "He married Jane Smith in 1831 and they would have three children"). And the would strings ("He would marry Jane Smith in 1831 and they would have three children, two of whom would become lawyers. He would be elected to the Assembly in 1860, where he would serve for eight years before he would die in 1868.") are egregious. Some of the text really is that bad. Doremo (talk) 03:14, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

My view is that "future would" might be permitted where the meaning is clear; but that it shouldn't be sprinkled through a text. That is, it's repetition-sensitive, so needs to be rationed. Tony (talk) 03:30, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

I'd turn it around to say the would might be permitted where the meaning would otherwise not be clear. EEng 15:57, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

Doremo, I can hardly believe that my article is so dreadful in just that one way. I nervously await the next unsheathing of your editorial machete. -- Hoary (talk) 07:18, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

Please! There are ladies present! EEng 15:57, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

Hoary (talk) 12:30, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

I'm not singling out anyone or any particular article. If other editors agree that your article is stylistically improved or that ambiguities are resolved by replacing simple past forms with would, then that is the right thing to do. Doremo (talk) 11:59, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

• I think much of the resistance to the "futurity 'would'" comes from seeing it used in our coverage of sports. You can't just write that a sportsperson did something. They might have "went on to", or "would go on to", but never simply "did". See this diff for a truly eyelid-twitching example. If your read garbage like that once too often, every use of the word "would" starts to looks dubious. Reyk _YO! 16:18, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

My eyes! But good to know how much "would" a wouldchuck would chuck if a wouldchuck could chuck "would" at last. NebY (talk) 16:34, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

WP:WOULDCHUCK EEng 19:21, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

I wonder what had given that editor would. -- Hoary (talk) 12:30, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

So I mean neither of the examples is bad. They're both good. It's just a question of context -- how much our writing should be like the writing you find in business memos and technical documentation, and how much it should be like the writing that you find in magazine articles and books. So let's see, for say a biography of the Earl of Sandwich, compare

It was in Paris that he met the Countess. She would teach him all he would ever know about cold cuts.

to

He met the Countess in Paris. She taught him all he ever knew about cold cuts.

I mean, I wouldn't change the first to the second, no. I might change the second to the first. Which is "better" is a matter of opinion, but I like the first. The second is limp and boring, in comparison. In my opinion.

Yes I know about Bill Strunk, and he makes great points, but "Why use lot word when few word do" is not a iron law, nor is the a rule that we must bore the reader.

Yes I get that our articles are not like magazine articles, and "not boring the reader" isn't exactly part of our remit. On the other hand, if the reader is so bored that she passes out, hits her head on the table, and perishes, that's on us. There's nothing wrong with, I don't know, good prose, as long as the info is communicated clearly. I mean we do (I hope!) take care not use the same adjective in consecutive sentences and so an, and after all an encyclopedia is part of the general body of public literature, it's not, I don't know, a memo to a Group Captain (or whatever they have) at ExxonMobile about how to smartsize the training department. Herostratus (talk) 01:08, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

I made an edit [13] that was reverted [14] with the edit summary "I'm not certain that this, being the converse, is true". It isn't a matter of a converse being true but whether this would be a reasonable addition to this guideline.

I'm interested in what other editors think about adding the sentence, "If something is consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources for a given article, then it should be capitalized in the article." Bob K31416 (talk) 19:36, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

I have some guesses, but it would be helpful to hear from you why you support this addition to the guideline. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 19:50, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Because it uses reliable sources to make the determination. Bob K31416 (talk) 20:59, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

I can't support a proposed change on that reason alone. We could remove the almost the entirety of the MoS and replace it with "do what most of the RS do", but that sounds frustrating and chaotic. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 21:12, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

I think the MOS was built on what is the accepted style based on style manuals and reliable sources, yet anyone who uses that as a reason for an addition to MOS is not told that we could remove almost the entirety of the MoS and replace it with "do what most of the style manuals and RS do". Bob K31416 (talk) 22:33, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

There's a difference between reviewing sources and guides to write a guideline and writing the guideline to just say "review sources". Firefangledfeathers (talk) 15:17, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

I reckon the folks pushing WP:JOBTITLES, may object to the addition. GoodDay (talk) 19:53, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

They shouldn't have any problem with it if that section doesn't contradict the condition that something is consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources for a given article. Bob K31416 (talk) 21:09, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

That could lead to basing capitalisation on the age of the sources, and in general source-based style could be as perilous as source-based units ("we'll show all these footballers' heights in metres because that's what the source does"). Counting sources looks like one good way to reach consensus but need it be the only one? Are we seeing disputes on Wikipedia that have to be determined by such a rule and no other considerations, or existing articles that need fixing according to this rule? NebY (talk) 20:00, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Re "we'll show all these footballers' heights in metres because that's what the source does" — It would have to be what is consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources for a given article. Bob K31416 (talk) 20:59, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Do you have any responses to NebY's other point, on dispute/article examples? Firefangledfeathers (talk) 21:12, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

For me it arose while working in the section Talk:Killing_of_Ma'Khia_Bryant#Black_or_African-American when I found in my work there that capitalized "Black" was always used in reliable sources when describing Ma'Khia Bryant. I then changed to capitalized "Black" in the article. (BTW, I was the one who originally introduced uncapitalized "black" into the article a few months before.) I thought I could easily change it to capitalized because that followed the sources, but instead it ran into opposition. The other editors participating in the "black" vs "Black" discussion were Buffs, The Blade of the Northern Lights, and Volteer1. Bob K31416 (talk) 22:15, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

You seem to be attempting to unilaterally change the rules in order to get your way despite the fact you've been shown a VERY recent RfC where is no consensus to do so. It should stay as is. This could be argued to be forum shopping. Buffs (talk) 23:14, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

The "black" vs "Black" issue is a very minor issue for me compared to making a good addition to this guideline. In fact, if this addition is accepted, I won't change "black" to "Black" but leave that for anyone else to do. Bob K31416 (talk) 23:29, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

As a reminder, here's the proposed addition again, "If something is consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources for a given article, then it should be capitalized in the article." Bob K31416 (talk) 01:10, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

This would just open up old (and very fraught) discussions, e.g. on the capitalization of the English names of species (particularly since styles in sources differ by country). Consistency across the English Wikipedia means having our own style manual and following it. Peter coxhead (talk) 06:33, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Could you give an example of a specific Wikipedia article where the proposed addition would be a problem? Bob K31416 (talk) 17:02, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

spotted owl (vs. Spotted Owl) and nearly every other species of bird. Many field guides capitalize these, whereas scientific texts have generally standardized on lowercase (if I recall correctly). In the past we had a weird mixed style where all species were lowercase, except birds. pburka (talk) 17:22, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

The proposed addition wouldn't apply because spotted owl is not consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources for the given article. So there's no problem. Bob K31416 (talk) 21:47, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

How would one go about demonstrating that? We don't have an authoritative list of independent, reliable sources. And "substantial majority" is vague: is 60% substantial? what about 3 of 5? Some species are so obscure that there may only be two or three sources: should we follow the style of those sources, or be consistent across the encyclopedia? Does Nature count as one source, or is each published paper a separate source? This proposed rule would encourage WP:WIKILAWYERING and inconsistency. pburka (talk) 22:16, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Exactly. Which is why in repeated discussions we decided on the existing policy. This proposal is a non-starter. Peter coxhead (talk) 08:39, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

It would be up to the editor using the proposed addition to gain consensus that something is consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources for a given article. This is the normal process when an editor's use of something in the MOS is challenged. If one was working on an article where something was consistently capitalized in the references for the article, and their change to capitalization was challenged, then they would need consensus that it was consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of references for the article. This is a more objective condition to discuss than whether to capitalize or not without any guidance from the MOS.

For whatever reason, it doesn't look like this proposal will gain consensus, so I'll end my participation in the discussion here. Bob K31416 (talk) 15:12, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

I'm looking to increase participation in a discussion about documenting the convention of capitalizing the name of the board game Go at MOS:GAMECAPS. Coastside (talk) 17:49, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Hi, is there a Wikipedia style guideline on whether we write "black" or "Black" for race? Thanks. Marquardtika (talk) 15:24, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

I couldn't see anything with a quick searching, but looking at some higher-quality articles to check for usage (Martin Luther King Jr. at GA and Malcolm X at FA) it seems the preference would be lower-case. 𝄠ʀᴀᴘᴘʟᴇ ꭗ 15:42, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

Yes. See the last paragraph of MOS:PEOPLELANG. The short version is that either is fine in most cases, they should be used consistently, and editors shouldn't switch to a different style without discussing it. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 15:50, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

Got it, thank you! Marquardtika (talk) 16:00, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

See also Proposed update to MOSCAPS regarding racial terms. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 17:32, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

@Marquardtika: @Peter Gulutzan: @Grapple X: I've been having this conversation (Black vs. black) regarding the NHL page. I'm a little surprised it doesn't seem to have more conversation here on WP. In American writing of all sorts, this is kind of a big deal. Please see this article from the AP on why we now capitalize Black. It's an incredibly important issue for inclusion as well as recognition of the awareness around systemic racism. I'm finding that as I change pages to have Black capitalized, I'm met with overwhelming disdain and reverting of my edits. I'm not trying to pick a fight with those who spend such a great deal of time making WP what it is, I just want to push this issue to be discussed more if possible. Thank you all! Mrohlewis (talk) 16:16, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

There already was quite a lengthy discussion that ended as no consensus, other than not changing what's already used in any given article without discussion first. —El Millo (talk) 16:58, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

As El Millo says, and as you say, this is essentially "In American writing" - only some uses of "black" would be capitalized in current British English - maybe "the Black community" (but certainly not by all) but only rarely "a black footballer". What the Canadian position is I don't know. Johnbod (talk) 17:48, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

• I don't see any indication at the MOS section that a change must be discussed beforehand; nor do I see anything that says the use must be consistent. As to the latter, quite the opposite: " there is no consensus against what is sometimes perceived as inconsistency in the same article (Black but white)".--Bbb23 (talk) 17:51, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

Yes, exactly - "the inconsistency of "Black but white" is ok, but once a capitalization style is used, it should be stuck to within the article (not Black and black together). Well I think that's what it says, but that actually raises issues re for example British English. Whatever the MOS section says, it is always best to raise proposed controversial edits on talk, and if you don't, don't be amazed when you are reverted. Johnbod (talk) 18:00, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

I personally think articles should be consistent, not only with the capitalization of black vs Black but also White vs. white and White vs. black or vice-versa, but it doesn't say you have to be. As far as "controversial edits", I'm talking only about what the MOS section says, nothing generally about good practice.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:28, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

We don't disagree on "consistent". I meant it in the sense of don't mix black/Black or white/White in the same article, not to suggest that Black/white is prohibited. It seems we might disagree about changes needing discussion, which I see as a straightforward application of MOS:VAR. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 18:39, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

Honestly, I think we do disagree, but I also think it's no big deal. Fortunately, I rarely get involved in MOS disputes. I'm only commenting here because it was wrapped up in a more significant dispute. I'm now bowing out.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:47, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

Fair enough. My curiosity means I'm happy to talk more if you feel like re-engaging. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 18:53, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

@Firefangledfeathers: @Johnbod: @Peter Gulutzan:: Thank you all for the responses. This discussion is very much needed as the only writing that has black instead of Black in America is right-wing media. I very much understand that it's not the case elsewhere in the world yet but that doesn't change the fact that we're talking about systemic racism in America and elsewhere when we capitalize Black. It seems to me that this is a basic issue of respect for the current cultural awareness around race. I have read the MOS conversation and see that while the vote was lopsided against capitalization, there was a note that after misleading or incorrect information was removed, the poll would have been significantly different. As that conversation happened over a year ago, it would seem to me that it's time to revisit this issue. Also, there is no capitalization of white in any American writing other than, again, right-wing or white-supremist media. That in itself is disturbing to me as that case has been made above in this talk. Thoughts? Mrohlewis (talk) 19:03, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

I am not sure you're entirely correct about American media usage. I know there's a subpage somewhere with some analysis of style guides. Maybe someone else has the link handy?

I am hesitantly optimistic about a new RfC. I think a key ingredient is framing it as a US-specific style decision. I would encourage patience, and soliciting opinion on carefully crafting the RfC's neutral statement and presentation of options. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 19:16, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

There was quite a lot of this analysis in the big discussion here. If, per the link above, AP only made the change in July 2020 (or shortly before), it seems unlikely that "the only writing that has black instead of Black in America is right-wing media", even with the BLM movement. The American-promoted change from BC to BCE etc has been pushed for some decades now, but even in America is very far from complete. Likewise transgender-y language issues. These things take a long time, & WP usually rightly aims to follow not lead. I agree "framing it as a US-specific style decision" is best (plus Canada?). Johnbod (talk) 19:27, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

Again, thank you all for your thoughtful consideration of this issue. While it might seem unlikely that "the only writing that has black instead of Black in America is right-wing media", I respectfully push back and ask you to quickly search around American news outlets and see for yourself. Our papers of record, The NY Times, The Washington Post, The Wall Street Journal have all moved to capitalize Black. It is standard American English today except for those pushing the idea that white-privilege is a made-up conspiracy. If WP is going to follow, not lead, it should do that and get on-board. It's been well over a year now, WP would not be in the lead to make this stylistic change. Again, I thank you all for the conversation about this issue as it's truly collaborative and the way WP should work. Mrohlewis (talk) 19:44, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

Consistency within color is desirable (i.e. if you start with Black, then don't change to black halfway through); consistency across colors is not (If you start with Black, there is no reason to also prefer "White" instead of "white.").

This is because we use "Black," (Websters: Black or less commonly black a: of or relating to any of various population groups of especially African ancestry often considered as having dark pigmentation of the skin but in fact having a wide range of skin colors. Black Americans NOTE: Capitalization of Black in this use is now widely established. b: of or relating to Black people and often especially to African American people or their culture e.g. Black literature, a Black college, Black pride, Black studies, NOTE: Capitalization of Black in this use is now widely established.) because the battle for this capitalization was won on the playing fields of America (I'm paraphrasing the Duke of Wellington here). It was not in Europe or Canada. They didn't have any Black people to speak of until recently, no Frederick Douglass, no Zora Neale Hurston, no Martin Luther King, and no Toni Morrison.

The evidence for "White" being preferred to "white," or vice-versa needs to be amassed independently. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:05, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

Yes, well in the UK we have had many black people for some time, but I don't see much of a movement to capitalize when they are called that - one of a range of possible terms, with Afro-Caribbean having been preferred for many years, perhaps less so now. Johnbod (talk) 03:22, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

True, but that is mostly the result of post-war emigration. British society, moreover, was more liberal than the American South. For the Caribbean migrants, there was no crucible like there was in America wherein new ways of looking at the world (Black is Beautiful) or of naming (Black, African-American) emerged (though emigration and exile are potent drivers too). Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:58, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

"Afro-Caribbean" now only covers a minority of Black people in the UK. In the 2011 census, many more people identified as Black African than as Black Caribbean, according to Black British people#Population. NebY (talk) 14:28, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

True as far as it goes, but Afro-Caribbean as such has not been a census option for the last two times, and the census option of "Black African" is not that common in general discourse, I'd say. I wonder how many who identified as Black Caribbean last time have now changed to Black African - this rather reinforces my point above. Then there's "Other Black", still chosen by many. Johnbod (talk) 15:04, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

There's been markedly higher immigration to the UK from Nigeria, Ghana, Kenya, Uganda and other countries in sub-Saharan Africa than from the Caribbean for decades, sufficient to explain the magnitude of the census changes without wondering how many have changed their description. NebY (talk) 16:36, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

Oh, you think? From that section: "In the 2001 Census, 575,876 people in the United Kingdom had reported their ethnicity as "Black Caribbean"" but in 2011, for England and Wales only, "594,825 [identified] as "Black Caribbean"" (and the 2001 Scotland & NI figures are pretty tiny). Seems an improbably low rate of growth. Johnbod (talk) 17:50, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

Remember there was a significant increase in the Mixed White and Black Caribbean responses, maybe consider your assumptions about probable growth rates, maybe ask whether you'd know how much the black population of the UK has changed and why that's changed our terminology - but this is all drifting very far away from the original question. Enough. NebY (talk) 18:36, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

From June 2020, "a growing list of media enterprises that have already updated their policies to capitalize Black [includes] NBC News and MSNBC, TIME, BuzzFeed News, the USA Today Network, Business Insider, HuffPost, McClatchy, Los Angeles Times, Seattle Times, Boston Globe, Chicago Sun-Times, Philadelphia Tribune, Detroit Metro Times, San Diego Union-Tribune, Sacramento Bee, Columbia Journalism Review, as well as The Canadian Press, Toronto Star, Globe and Mail, and CBC News. Black media outlets, such as Essence magazine and theGrio, led the way in capitalizing Black." Also "statement after statement from executives of companies and organizations using the capital B in their responses to the nation’s protests: Nike, Netflix, Amazon, Google, Starbucks, Target, Macy’s, Nordstrom, Spotify, Apple, Disney, Hulu, HBO, Lyft, Uber, McDonalds, Team USA, Major League Baseball, and Major League Soccer, among many others."[15] NebY (talk) 14:19, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

How many actually show "Black" juxtaposed with "white", which would probably look just sloppy to anyone not acquainted with the rather subtle rationale behind such usage. There's a good chance that writers for such publications would go to some lengths, through judicious rewriting, to keep that from happening. Rules of usage usually are simpler, such as "color designations used to classify races should be capitalized (or not capitalized)". I recently noted that "white" appears with "black" in an essay by Thomas Chatterton Williams in the October 2021 Harper's Magazine. The essay was largely about James Baldwin's sojourn in Switzerland, and Harper's generally isn't regarded as white-supremacist literature. Dhtwiki (talk) 04:28, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

Here are some stats showing the capped Black is not so common, but does sometimes go along with lowercase white. Try searching other contexts. Dicklyon (talk) 05:05, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

Why is this still being discussed here rather than WT:MOSCAPS? Peter Gulutzan (talk) 14:38, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

MOS:PEOPLANG states that it could be either way. That leads me to wonder why so many editors have jumped down my throat about this issue. It seems that WP protocol allows it and those reverting it are doing so arbitrarily....Mrohlewis (talk) 19:16, 8 October 2021 (UTC)