Should "alt-text" be a requirement for all FAs? At present (per MOS:ACCIM and as expanded upon in MOS:ALT), it is part of our MoS and advised for WP:ACCESS reasons for those who are using a screen reader due to a visual impairment. Currently, its implementation at FAC is not universal: should we make it a requirement, possibly to be checked as part of an image review? - SchroCat (talk) 19:39, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

• No. It's been a decade since it was discussed to death, but the underlying issues haven't changed. Alt-text is good practice and should be encouraged, but there are numerous occasions where it's not appropriate, and even in those cases where it is appropriate the overwhelming majority of Wikipedians don't understand how to write it (as a general rule, if your alt-text for any given image is more than six words you're doing it wrong), and enforcing this would cause a huge amount of bad feeling as we'd be failing otherwise-fine FACs en masse. ‑ Iridescent 20:30, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

  I am finding online that 125 characters is a good limit (though shorter if possible is better). Is six words a rule of thumb or is that recommended somewhere? Kees08 (Talk) 21:04, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

  125 characters is the maximum at which screen readers can't handle it; alt-text should be significantly shorter than that. The canonical example is "dog leaps for a stick"; as concrete examples from a fully-compliant website, the alt-text of the first ten images in this story on the BBC News website is "Vic in the exclusion zone", "Chernobyl Nuclear Power Plant", "Gennady Laptev and his colleague working in Chernobyl in 1986", "Narodichi, Ukraine", "A researcher holds a radiation dosimeter", "Inside Unit 3 of the Chernobyl nuclear power station", "Map: Current radiation levels in the Chernobyl exclusion zone", "Red Forest, 4km from the Chernobyl reactor", "Przewalski's horses in the Chernobyl exclusion zone" and "Burayakovka". Basically, the alt text should be the absolute minumum necessary to give readers an understanding of what they're missing, and not—as most Wikipedians believe—an actual description of the image. RexxS can give a more full explanation if you want all the technicalities. ‑ Iridescent 21:25, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

  Iri, Thanks for kicking off the discussion here. The 'overwhelming majority of Wikipedians' don't know how to write an FA either, but those than can should be good enough in their approach to writing to be able to manage it, n'est-ce pas? You're certainly right to say that Alt text isn't appropriate in many situations, but the guidelines specifically allow for it not to be used for every image. Personally, I don't think that enforcing this would be any more onerous than having to jump through the hoops of any other part of our FA criteria - it's quite a low bar to have to hurdle, after all. - SchroCat (talk) 21:16, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

  I take it you weren't around when they briefly tried to make alt-text mandatory at FAC? It can't be emphasised enough how much of a disaster it was, and caused bad feeling that literally lasted for years. If anything, we should be pushing back more firmly against the increasingly prevalent notion that the MOS is somehow compulsory, not introducing yet another level of bureaucracy for nominees to jump through. (If you want a concrete example of how big an issue this would cause, if "make the alt-text compliant" were included in FAC, then in your last three FACs every single image was non-compliant.) ‑ Iridescent 21:31, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

  No, I wasn't around, and I'm bemused it could have caused so much friction. You know (or at least I think I've told you before) about my attitude to the MoS: it's there for guidance, not a series of ten commandments that have to slavishly be followed (to the point I have been called "anti-MoS" and more); I think you and I are, broadly, on the same page on that front. I don't see alt texts as being another level of bureaucracy: to me they are a small tickbox to be completed (20 mins in total for most articles, if you have to struggle with them - mush less time and much more use than an IB, for example) - certainly less of a burden than many of the other accoutrements necessary for an FA. For those readers with a visual impairment I understand this is extremely useful (sometimes vital) for them. Yes, my Alts may not be great, but I disagree that every single image is non-compliant, although many of them are less useful than others: even a badly written alt is a whole load better than no Alt at all. - SchroCat (talk) 21:41, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

• Encourage it rather than enforce it I'd love to see alt text on all images in Wikipedia, but I was around in 2010 when we we lost User:Eubulides through burn-out, trying to get alt text implemented. I think that for some editors, alt text can be a seemingly insuperable bar, and I'd hate them to feel disbarred from the FA process if they would otherwise have participated.
  For SchroCat, I'd be more than happy to work with you to find ways of helping and encouraging potential FA nominators to use alt text. But I'd really rather not enforce it.
  For Iri, the BBC website gets it wrong as well: alt text shouldn't contain information that can't be gleaned from inspecting the image - that's the job of the caption (otherwise, either folks who don't see the alt text miss out on information, or screen reader users hear the same info twice!). The BBC alt text should have been: "Victoria Gill walking along a road" (with caption: "Vic in the exclusion zone"); ""Gennady Laptev and a colleague" (the caption is fine, but you can't tell it's 1986 from looking at the picture); and so on. Cheers --RexxS (talk) 22:14, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
• Let those who want it do it - another layer of work for FAC writers doesn't really motivate them (judging from my own experience), rather, those who really want it implemented could be given free reign to add it to FACs and promoted articles (a task force?), or maybe to all articles in general, if it is a general rather than FAC specific issue (as it seems to be?). I'd be more than happy to pass on that responsibility. FunkMonk (talk) 22:56, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
• Encourage rather than enforce per RexxS for a number of reasons. I dont like scope creep, esp wrt MOS, which is frankly why FAC is so off putting [1]to a very great number of fine editors; the perception is of form over substance. Also, if it is codified, as proposed, I don't see how that would work. I normally add if requested, but sometimes refuse as with [2], an extreme example, where any desc would have necessitated personal selective bias, and risked my adding uncourced addition of POV. A further worry is logical conclusion...wait 3 months and someone will demand that alt texts are referenced. Ceoil (talk) 00:16, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
• Comment - As it turns out, I've been alt-captioning very wrong indeed, Iridescent. I thought I needed to detail the image in as descriptive language as possible to create the image in the reader's head if they couldn't see it. Try explaining the features of a map to a blind reader in six words or less. In other words, my alt captions for an image such as a detailed map can be several hundred words long.

• What do? Delete the alt-captions, replace the alt-captions with a phrase like "Annotated map of x"? Nobody's pointed out to me my egregious misunderstanding of the function of an alt-caption up to this point. :( Mr rnddude (talk) 01:01, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

  @Mr rnddude: Making the effort to provide alternative text is far better than not having the text, so don't beat yourself up over it. Have a read of WAI Images Tutorial for complex images and see if you can incorporate your "long description" into the article, with a link or pointer from either the alt text or from the image caption. Alt text needs to be succinct, but you can be forgiven for using a dozen words when dealing with a complex image – alt=Map of the substructure to Unas's pyramid. See section xxx for full description.

  You'll be improving the article for anybody who has images switched off as well as those using assistive technology. Cheers --RexxS (talk) 02:03, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

RexxS - Thanks. I'll take a look at the tutorial you linked, and also see what I can move from the alt-caption into the body text. Mr rnddude (talk) 06:01, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

• No. The problem when we last tried to require this was that no one knew for sure what editors who use screen readers need. We were encouraged to write long detailed descriptions of the images. The next thing we heard was that people using screen readers had complained about it at Wikimania, so we stopped. According to WebAIM, alt text is any text that makes clear what an image is (e.g. "George Washington", not "an older man with white hair"), including text in the article and caption. There's no need to repeat that in the "alt attribute", which they say (if I've understood them correctly) can consist of alt="" to avoid redundancy. We were told years ago that alt=photograph or alt=map were fine. Given the confusion, I think we should not require it. SarahSV ^(talk) 01:50, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
• No per Iri, Rexxx and SV; it seems from the above that many/most are still unclear what the alt text is supposed to do (and the BBC apparently). I've just looked at WP:MOSALT, perhaps for the first time in ten years (when I think it was pretty different) & found it fairly clear. But it could be clearer on what we are trying to achieve. I found the options of a blank alt and "refer to caption" useful & new to me. I'd almost favour making at least one of these compulsory. In a large % of cases a good caption will almost remove the need for alt text, I'd think, except for a blank alt to stop the screen reader reading out the file name. I note the first example at the end contains well over 6 words: "alt=A red flag divided into four by a white cross slightly offset to the left." - 15 in fact, if short ones. Poor old User:Eubulides! Johnbod (talk) 03:20, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
• Comment I'm vaguely leaning towards "No" on this for a couple of meta-reasons. My primary concern for the purpose of this RfC is that expressed by RexxS and Iridescent above: we cannot afford to lose any more Eubulideses (Eubulidi?)!
  However, a possibly more fundamental concern is with the framing of the question. In one of those linked 2009 discussions I wrote: I get the feeling the discussion has an odd emphasis on the “This is too hard, we can't do it” angle, rather than “This is how and to what degree we are practically able to do it” (on which latter point reasonable editors may disagree). The question really shouldn't be whether to require accessibility in the FA criteria, it should be which specific measures should be required, to what degree, and what tools do editors need (e.g. shared alt text on image page) in order to comply.
  SarahSV's argument is a valid one (I agree with her assessment of the status quo), but I also think, as an argument, it has a flaw: the reason we have widespread confusion and lack of expertise in this area is because we as a project have done too little to work on it (requiring it at FAC or GAN being two potential tools in the relevant toolchest). All such efforts require periods of confusion, disagreements, failures, discussions, wrong paths taken, corrections, and so forth. What the extensive archive at Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates/Alt text tells us is that starting by "making alt text required at FAC" is probably not a good idea today any more than it was a decade ago. However, I would argue that having alt text (and some surrounding issues) and accessibility a requirement at FAC is a desireable end state once certain prerequisites are in place. And the world and Wikipedia has changed since 2009: while the effort might land in the same place (or it might not), it probably wouldn't play out in the same way (for better or worse).
  What I would like to see discussed, with subsequent RfCs as appropriate, is what are the slow baby steps along the path that will eventually land at that desired end state? Is tooling a prerequisite perhaps? The WMF is working on structured data for Commons, and starting with captions for images. Maybe we should request they work on support for structured alternative text on Commons so that it can be shared between articles and projects? And reviewing for accessibility (alternative text being just one aspect of that) takes not just process but reviewers. Do we actually have anyone willing to take the lead on that, vaguely similar to how image reviews and source checks are handled today? If someone was willing to be the go-to person for accessibility reviews, and carrying the load for a good long while, we might be able to make it work; otherwise it probably won't.
  Nothing prevents reviewers who care about the issue from mentioning it in FA reviews now even if the criteria do not require it. That might be a good way to start. Perhaps there is some way we could mention accessibility in the criteria without making it a requirement to remind all concerned that it is an issue and encouraging them to go the extra mile? Some people mention MOS:LISTGAP as an aside in discussion threads when applicable, and similar type of gentle encouragement might move the needle at FAC too.
  Bottom line is that starting by adding alternative text as a criteria at FAC is unlikely to work; but I'd love to see effort put into more manageable and more likely to succeed first steps towards that. It's been a decade already (it's been a decade already?!?): let's think in terms of what can be achieved if we keep chipping away at it for the next decade! --Xover (talk) 08:07, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

Personally I think SarahSV's argument is ignorant horseshit. A poorly written Alt is better than none, and ignorance of how to do it should not be a bar to writing what we hope will be our supposedly best articles. Arguments along the lines of 'I don't know how to do it properly, so we shouldn't have to do it' is too laughable to be a basis of a serious argument. Sadly it looks like this won't pass, but people arguing that it's too much work to do or that they don't understand it enough is rather crass when we're trying to make sure our articles are readable for everyone - there are more people upset over ensuring computers can read metadata than there are people trying to make things better for the visually impaired. - SchroCat (talk) 10:08, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

Please, watch your language. Calling somebody's arguments "ignorant horseshit" is a clear no go. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 10:19, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

If I want your opinion on my language, I'll ask for it. The argument, in my opinion is "ignorant horseshit". If you don't have anything sensible to say about the substantive point of the discussion, then don't patronise people by telling them what to say. - SchroCat (talk) 10:24, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

Still such a nice man. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:39, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Pointless and inflammatory comment struck. - SchroCat (talk) 14:53, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

By you (shall I also strike "ignorant horseshit" as "pointless and inflammatory"). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:56, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

And now, back on topic. Xover and RexxS, I am unclear where the notion that we lost editor Eubulides because of alt-text burnout is coming from. When he was around, he was willing and able to help on alt text, and FAC indulged this passion of his. I have quite a few other ideas about what caused the loss of Eubulides, which I will not commit to public print, and it was not alt text related at all. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:38, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

@SandyGeorgia: Although it's most likely that other factors played a part in Eubulides' retirement, I am in no doubt, myself, that the extraordinary amount of effort he put into trying to make alt text useful on Wikipedia contributed significantly to his retirement. Perhaps re-reading his talk page for March 2010 will refresh your memory of where the notion came from. --RexxS (talk) 16:07, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, RexxS-- our editing interests quite significantly overlapped (neuropsych articles and FAC), and I followed his page closely always, and did everything in my power to indulge his wishes re alt text, but I am also aware of other issues that impacted his editing, that are best not disclosed here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:11, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Your restraint is remarkable as always, SandyGeorgia. :) I was under the impression that the stress surrounding the previously linked discussions was a strongly contributing factor (in the straw... camel... etc. sense), but I'm happy to be corrected on that count. In any case, I just seized on Eubulides as an example of why trying to add this to the criteria now is a bad idea: someone is likely to end up burnt out, ragequitting, or getting themselves dragged to the dramaboards. And then the issue would be off-limits for another decade before we rinse and repeat. A baby steps approach is needed, which in turn requires agreeing on the eventual goal and then building stone on stone until the house is ready. --Xover (talk) 16:29, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Xover your wisdom is remarkable as always. Best, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:31, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

• No. We shouldn't be making it harder for FACs to pass; it's hard enough already. The benefits are questionable anyway because of the concerns of people writing crap for alternate text just to check a box. --Rschen7754 08:41, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

• An extra 15 minutes of effort for you to get a gold star? Doesn't seem to be that hard a step to undertake. The benefits are for those with visual impairments, and it won't be "writing crap" if people do it properly - something an image review should easily pick up on. Ignorance of how to do it, or laziness of not being bothered to do it, should not be acceptable. We have standards, and asking FA writers to reach those standards should not be a big deal. - SchroCat (talk) 10:01, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

• It's death by a thousand paper cuts. FA standards should not be meaningless bureaucracy but should serve to provide meaningful and high-quality articles for the reader. If too many standards got passed that did little for the reader, such as alt text, then yeah, I would probably forgo "the gold star" entirely. Not that I don't want to write more featured articles, but writing more featured articles doesn't put a roof over my head or food on my table. --Rschen7754 03:58, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

• No. Per Iri, RexxS, Ceoil, Johnbod & Sarah. Bringing it back to discussion isn't a bad idea because it's been a decade since we last discussed, when it was mandatory. The reasons for making it not mandatory haven't changed, and have been documented here (honestly, I didn't realize it's been a decade, but remember well writing very convoluted alt-texts which later had to be changed). Also, Ceoil makes a good point about scope creep and Johnbod about captioning in general. Victoriaearle (tk) 17:18, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
• Comment. I tried here, a couple of times, to get some clarification on exactly how to write alt text. The responses weren't unhelpful but don't fill me with confidence that I can use WP:ALT to write good alt text. I would be much more enthusiastic about writing alt text if the guideline made more sense to me. I think the first task here is making WP:ALT easier to understand and use. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:01, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
• No. As much as I loved editor Eubulides, who was behind previous FA enforcement of alt text, it was an enormous PITA. Back then, there were gobs of reviewers in a very active FAC process, so we went with it, and it was still too much work. In today's FAC environment, no way. When Eubulides was active, we could count on him to help write the blooming stuff, which was always a challenge. Without him, this is placing an additional burden on a dying process which is already struggling to even address existing standards. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:50, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
• Lean support, but oppose for now. When I was taking a college-level English composition course, or other classes involving a lot of writing, we had guidance on how to manually craft a citation in APA/MLA/CMOS formats, so it was expected that our papers would properly use the expected format. Writing alt text to me seems like a similar writing skill, so if we can get good guidelines, we should have our best work apply that tool in the toolkit. I'll wholeheartedly support a proposal like this once we have the proper resources in place so that editors know how to write the alt text. Imzadi 1979 → 16:21, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
• I could live with this I don't write good ALT text and find it very hard to do. It would be greatly appreciated if images had a default ALT text, which could be overridden in a particular article. There's also the issue of what happens when, as is permissible under MOS:ALT, no alt text is required. But I agree with Sandy; it would place an additional burden on an already overloaded process. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:30, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

I believe the appropriate alt-text in many of those cases is an alt-text of "See caption." If it's purely decorative (which I sure hope it's not), the alt text can be a word which describes the object such as |alt=painting. Wugapodes [t^hɑk] [ˈkan.ˌʧɹɪbz] 20:50, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

• Strong support - being inclusive is usually not convenient. NASA chose not to train black and female astronauts early in the 60s because they thought it interfered with their mission to land on the Moon by 1969. I agree, it is not easy to add alt-text right now, our guidelines and our tools should be improved (see here for one attempt at that). Alt tags are just one aspect of accessibility. There are other elements that we, including myself, fall short of (for example Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Accessibility#Block_elements). It would be beneficial for the encyclopedia to embrace accessibility, starting with alt text. I think requiring alt text at FAC would be a net positive, and hopefully better tools along with the very proficient editors at FAC improving their alt-writing skills will reduce the pain of alt-text over time. However if we do not implement it, we cannot get past the pain. Kees08 (Talk) 00:12, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
• Moral support the best content on Wikipedia shouldn't be limited to people whose bodies we deem convenient. However, I don't think the right way to go about this is through rules telling people how to act rather than documenting how people already act. I think the better first step is to make it easier for editors to become aware of and create good alt-text which may even include reviewers adding alt-text themselves. Adding simple alt-text writing tips to new editor guides, help pages, and documentation would be more productive than this change. Wugapodes [t^hɑk] [ˈkan.ˌʧɹɪbz] 20:45, 11 March 2019 (UTC)