This is an issue that keeps being raised, so wide input would be appreciated. Users exercising the right to vanish may request the deletion of their user pages. Should they also be allowed to have their talk pages deleted by any admin, or should talk pages be moved to a new name (if so wished) but otherwise preserved, unless there is consensus to delete at MfD? SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 06:21, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Past discussions (likely an incomplete list): Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion/Archive 36#CSD U1, user talk pages, and the right to vanish; the archives for this page

• Keep talk pages, though they can be moved to whatever new account name the contributions are being moved to. The difference between user pages and talk pages is that other editors have largely written the latter, so it's not appropriate for the user in question, or for an admin, to decide unilaterally to delete them. Exceptions should be rare—e.g. when serious real-life issues are involved that for some reason necessitate deletion of the page. Otherwise, talk pages should be deleted via MfD like any other page that multiple editors have contributed to. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 06:22, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep talk pages generally per SlimVirgin and also per my own comments when this last came up here only 3 weeks ago. Franamax (talk) 06:30, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep talk pages: What Slim said. --MZMcBride (talk) 06:36, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep talk pages. Per SlimVirgin. Deleting user talk pages, especially those that have relevant information, under such circumstances is not compatible with WP:OWN. Talk pages of ban-evading socks etc. with no useful history are another matter.  Sandstein  06:48, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Though Avi below makes an important point: we may need to note that talk pages may be deleted, in particular, in order to protect the real-life identity of the vanished user.  Sandstein  07:06, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete talk pages per users requests. Administrators should request the deletions of their own talk pages versus deleting them themselves. If the user returns even under a new name, the talk pages should be restored.--Mbz1 (talk) 06:55, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Allow Deletion: In cases where users are truly making a break from Wikipedia, there is no need to keep these pages. I understand that in a lot of cases, RTV is being used as the illegitimate offspring of WP:CLEANSTART and WP:SOCK. However, if someone TRULY wants to make a clean break from Wikipedia, I see no reason (including those listed above) from requesting their talk page be deleted. At most I would allow deletion with a one-edit recreation that there WAS a user with such a name, and if there was signs that the editor has returned, to restore the previous edits. In a lot of these cases, those arguing against allowing such a deletion want the pages to remain as a bit of a Damnatio memoriae. SirFozzie (talk) 06:57, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Leave it up to the bureaucrat's discretion. Many times there is no need to delete the talk pages. Other times, personal issues such as emotional or psychological harm is a possibility when people believe that they are being "ganged up on" or attacked. Wikipedia pages of any sort should never be able to be used as attacks, and if someone is distressed enough to give up years of work due to on-wiki stresses, the bureaucrat in question should have the right to protect that person's real life identity and/or well-being. -- Avi (talk) 07:00, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • SirFozzie says it very well when he refers to Damnatio memoriae. I have always tried to err on protecting the emotional/psychological well-being of editors. Vandal-only sockmasters are one thing; editors of many years' status willing to throw it all out is another, which is why I maintain that bureaucrats should be allowed the discretion to delete the talk pages when they deem it necessary. -- Avi (talk) 07:10, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete at request of user. SlimVirgin's original statement assumes that people will return. That is a CLEANSTART, not a RTV. The general community rarely is aware of whether or not users are being harassed or RTV for other reasons that have nothing to do with Wikipedia. The theory that "other editors" should have the right to view their edits on someone else's talk page is illogical - "other editors" can't see their edits on any other pages that have been deleted, either, which would argue against ever deleting anything. One of the most important parts of the entire RTV process is the ability of users to leave the project; continued posting on their talk pages has the tendency to draw people back, particularly if they are littered with ill-considered comments. Deleting the user talk page assists in the transition from editor to non-editor. Risker (talk) 07:10, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per request This needn't be a huge deal. If someone truly has decided to leave, their talk page can and should be deleted. I do think that any conversations an editor can demonstrate a need to view can and should be undelted. AniMate 07:28, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Leave to bureaucrat discretion/user request. As it happens, requests to vanish from vandals or generally unconstructive users are generally declined. The people who do vanish are, most of the time, people who have their "emotional/psychological well-being" (to quote Avi) at stake. In such a case, talk page deletion is primarily a form of protection and also a form of transition away, because for whatever reason, people keep coming back to Wikipedia, which vanished users are not to do. These are general trends though, and the circumstances may dictate otherwise, which is why discretion and request are important. bibliomaniac15 07:36, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Generally keep - user talkpages, especially of users who have been around longer, often, if not always, contain discussions regarding edits to mainspace articles, and removing such discussions can result in not finding the discussions which establish certain changes. Secondly, for editors who have been around short, but have had significant editing problems and have received numerous warnings, the fact that those warnings were issued, and that the user, under this username, was aware of the warnings, can affect future decisions on handling (a) new or 'new' user(s) or their actions. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 08:05, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep talk pages, except in extreme situations where IAR can be invoked. Talk pages are the contributions of many editors, and are a central part of the Akashic record tradition of Wikipedia. Virtually all privacy issues can be handled through oversighting or other tools that fix individual edits. RTV is intended to be permanent and is separate from the "clean start" alternate account. Nobody who exercises the right to vanish can ethically return with a new user name, especially editors whose contributions might otherwise come under additional scrutiny due to past problems.   Will Beback  talk  08:10, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • As I said above, Will.. you're confusing what apparently everyone considers RTV to be (CLEANSTART) with truly leaving the encyclopedia. Your theory fails under that test. No one argues that someone who RTV's and comes back under the same account or a new one should have the talk page stay deleted. If, and only if, they are truly vanishing, then the RTV allows them to make a clean break with Wikipedia. It's common courtesy. SirFozzie (talk) 08:18, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm not confusing the two, I'm distinguishing them. RTV is meant to be permanent. It's not meant for someone who wants to come back, which is the opposite of vanishing. I've started a thread on the privacy issue below. 08:32, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
• Keep talk pages if the user is an arbitrator. This should be pretty clear. The talk pages of arbitrators usually contain important discussions related to an arbcase. Every current and future arbitrator should be forced to give up the right to get their talk pages deleted -- if a person cannot agree to this, then he simply should not be an arb. I'm not sure about the general case of deleting talk pages of non-arb users. Offliner (talk) 08:12, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • No, at least in my case, 90% of an arb's talk page with regards to any ArbCase is people agitating for others to be blocked, or for their misbehavior to be treated less harshly. I cannot think of a case where significant user talk discussion played a role in a decision. Under your theory, the Committee should be forced to publish its archives of discussions to every closed case... after all it's important discussions related to an arbcase, right? SirFozzie (talk) 08:18, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • All public discussions related to an arbcase should be kept public, even if an arb decides to "run away". Offliner (talk) 08:21, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Do not delete user talk pages. These pages often contain material relevant to policy development, other users development, and sometimes even mainspace material. The contributions were irrevocably released your under the CC-BY-SA 3.0 License and the GFDL. RTV should be limited to renaming the account, retroactively to anonymise the departed user. Selective revision deletion may be used to remove personally identifying material from the talk page history, but only so far as it doesn't impinge on keeping the history of ongoing project interests. Deleting, even revision deletion, of one's own talk page should be absolutely forbidden. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 09:16, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No problem with blanking and protection of a departed user's talk page. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:58, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Exceptions should generally be debated at MfD. If there are over-riding personal or other concerns, it should be treated as a request for oversight. I would expect that oversighters have their own codes and checks for such requests. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:00, 9 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In an instance of a security breach, there may not be time for community debate or requests for action (such as oversight), nor may there be time for oversight to pick through an edit history to tease out relevant edits. In some cases, immediate action is necessary. Kingturtle = (talk) 03:25, 9 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In case of urgent need, one should do what needs to be done. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:45, 9 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep talkpage and associated archives Primarily as per SirFozzie. Delete userpage upon request. However, perhaps when someone requests RTV, their talkpage should be immediately locked from editing. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 09:35, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep but allow blanking - I was undecided until I read User:Beetstras comment. Talk pages often contain discussions that others need to reference after the user leaves. Even brief threads can potentially matter, such as confirming whether a file deletion was notified or any response on a content or file question. I can't see an exception for "allow if only trivial content" being viable, it's just too subjective. FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 10:26, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Permit deletion at bureaucrat discretion only. We elect bureaucrats to handle these sorts of issues sensitively and responsibly. As a matter of routine, talk pages should not be deleted, but if there are exceptional reasons for deletion, they are likely to be reasons precluding much discussion, especially public discussion. Rd232 ^talk 10:45, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep talkpages ESPECIALLY the archives. One thing I appreciate about Wikipedia is the continuity of history, being able to trace any particular discussion from link to link to its root, the preservation of all information that contributes to Wikipedia's 'soul', basically the Akashic record thing WillB. mentioned above. And leaving a mass of broken links is the biggest problem of all. I really really hate broken links. When I enter a particular oldid revision number I damn well expect that page to be there unless it's oversighted for good reason. -- œ^™ 11:33, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep talkpages. Blanking, locking, renaming are all acceptable. Deletion of specific edits for good reasosn as well. Deletion of a complete talk page isn't, as many other editors may use it as a reference. Fram (talk) 12:09, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• There is no simple answer. In most some cases deletion is not appropriate at all, but if I made use of RTV because some thug was targeting my child at school I would feel very strongly that my talk page should also be deleted completely and that there should be a general climate in which this doesn't cause a huge dispute. Oversighters etc. must use discretion, and they need a climate in which they can make use of it without causing further damage. Hans Adler 12:15, 8 November 2010 (UTC) Changed comment per Kingturtle below. Hans Adler 15:32, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep talkpages with selective revisiondelete where necessary. (This is not a comment on Rlevse, which is a special case. But hard cases make bad law. My point is for RTV users in general.)—S Marshall T/C 12:18, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep, only if editor is vanishing under a negative cloud. GoodDay (talk) 12:34, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep but blank if requested. This is even more important for long term editors and administrators as mentioned above. JodyB _talk 13:10, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep, we already allow blanking, and we also already allow oversight of specific problem diffs, and between the two this is entirely adequate. I see no need whatsoever for deletion. DuncanHill (talk) 13:43, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• I think that keeping the talkpages should be the default, and I've declined at least one ((G7)) per RTV request on a talkpage. I've deleted one newbies talkpage per G7 and IAR when they left, but as the only edit to it was the equivalent of them saying "Hello World" I figured that was reasonable discretion. I've also deleted talkpages per G10 when the only edit was a personal attack. I'm not going to quibble if an uninvolved crat or Arb deletes talkpages in a RTV scenario per extenuating circumstances, but when we are talking about substantial editing and potentially important discussion history then I would like to see this tightened to an uninvolved editor who has identified themselves to the office, e.g. a checkuser. I think that would protect both the former Wikipedian and the person doing the deletion, and would also restrict this to necessary cases such as involving minors and other vulnerable people. ϢereSpielChequers 14:43, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Allow Deletion: We're talking about the right to vanish, not about clean starts or fresh starts. RTV is a courtesy not divvied out to anyone who wants it. It is allowed by the community for extreme cases to users in good standing on a case by case basis, and the deletion of pages (and on rare occasions edits) are done on a discretionary basis. Whether a talk page is deleted, blanked or left alone really depends on the case. Every RTV is different, and there needs to be some leeway in how they are administered. Also, there are safeguards in place to reverse or prevent RTV deletions. Kingturtle = (talk) 14:44, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep because talk pages remain useful for the community after a vanisher vanishes, and because controversial deletion raises the appearance of power users looking out for their buddies, especially when there's a cloud. Townlake (talk) 14:48, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • What if there is no cloud? Kingturtle = (talk) 14:58, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • That's why the word "especially" is there, sport. Townlake (talk) 04:47, 9 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Its obvious When a user flames out and deletes their user and talk page because they can't deal with whatever stresses are affecting them any more we should imemdiately threaten them and force them to undelete the page rather being patient and having some kind of supportive or understanding discussion with them to try and find solutions that suit everyone. Spartaz ^Humbug! 15:06, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Spartaz, you may not have noticed that most editors cannot delete anything, let alone their talkpages, however stressed they may be. DuncanHill (talk) 15:12, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • ((csd-U1)) Doh! Spartaz ^Humbug! 15:14, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • If you had bothered to read CSD:U1, you would know that it specifically excludes usertalk pages. "Personal user pages and subpages (but not user talk pages) upon request by their user. In some rare cases there may be administrative need to retain the page. In exceptional cases user talk pages may be deleted via Miscellany for Deletion (see right to vanish); they are not eligible for speedy deletion under this criterion." Doh indeed! DuncanHill (talk) 15:20, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep; blank if desired. Vanished or not, there's no reason to delete content from the user talk page unless it meets one of the revdel criteria; the practice is liable to be open to abuse and have no benefits: The rest of the user's contributions will remain regardless, so why delete the contents of their talk page, and why would leaving it in place be an issue unless they want to cover up problems in their history? GiftigerWunsch [TALK] 16:06, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete at request of user -... or at the discretion of an admin where appropriate and in exceptional circumstances. Generally an ordinary user can blank their user talk page anyway (it should be their choice on that too) and such blanking ought to be considered by itself to be generally equivalent to a deletion request as well. User talk pages are usually intended to be temporary discussion spaces even if there tends to be some semi-permanence after a fashion. All rules have exceptions and there are exceptions here, but in general I fail to see what benefits the community as a whole to insist upon keeping content on somebody else's user talk page. If a discussion is important to you, copy it onto your own user talk page or if it is something important to the project as a whole, into some place in the main project namespace (aka the "Wikipedia" namespace) instead. With some exceptions, I don't think there should even be a limit in terms of how many times a deletion request can be made, although repeated requests can be done as time and circumstances permit by admins and don't necessarily have to be done either. A user trying to vanish from the project who is also formally requesting a talk page deletion... there shouldn't even be a question that it ought to be deleted too. Such a request must come from the user of that account itself, not by somebody claiming it is an alternate account. --Robert Horning (talk) 16:13, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - IMO, the "right to vanish" does not mean "the right to obliterate everything I ever did". Unless there are extremely specific and justifiable concerns of privacy, what anyone puts into this place should remain for good. The "You irrevocably agree to release your contributions..." line isn't just there for show. Tarc (talk) 17:12, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Allow deletion of all records made by the user who requests deletion from his talk page. Please make this a general policy, regardless to the right to vanish. Biophys (talk) 16:36, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep IMO, they should not be deleted. A user talk page is a centralized location for figuring out what a user is all about. The reasons for leaving, the kind of editor a person was, though they are available in other locations (ANI, Arb pages, etc.), are most easily examined on the user talk page. Courtesy blanking is fine but leave a viewable history for anyone who wishes to see it.--RegentsPark (talk) 16:39, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I do not understand why we remove garbage from main space, but can not do the same in the user space. Why can't we make an AfD discussion of a specific contentious user talk page to discuss all "benefits" of keeping it? Yes, I mean my own talk page, for example, even though I am not going to vanish. Biophys (talk) 17:03, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Both WP:CSD and WP:RTV already say that usertalk pages can be deleted via MfD, though they both make clear that this is in exceptional cases. DuncanHill (talk) 17:12, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Why? Whatever is not beneficial for the project may and should be removed per WP:IAR if nothing else. And what is beneficial should be decided by WP:Consensus, during an AfD-like discussion.Biophys (talk) 17:37, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Consensus (as reflected in both CSD and RTV) has long been that it is more beneficial in most cases to retain usertalk pages, but that they can be deleted via discussion at MfD if necessary. DuncanHill (talk) 17:40, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Then such matters should be decided at MfD.Biophys (talk) 18:06, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete Per user request as it comes under Userspace.User Page and Talk Page come under UserSpace and it left best to a Users discretion and as a Talk Page is primarily meant to communicate with the concerned user. Now if the concerned user has left Wikipedia and wants it deleted or blanked as per a users wish it should be carried out.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 18:16, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Case-by case basis I don't see any compelling reason to always keep them, nor any compelling reason to always delete them. Crats are among our most trusted users, they should be able to make such a decision in the case of RTV. That being said, we should always allow a user who is departing voluntarily and is not blocked to have their archives deleted, and to blank their talk page as their last edit if they wish. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:05, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • But why allow deletion? I see no reason whatsoever for it. We might as well delete all talk pages (user and article and project) at whim. It's all very well for admins (who can see what has been deleted, and are also the most egregious in wanting to hide the evidence of their own misbehaviour) but it is downright condescending to the rest of us. We are left groping in the dark, not even allowed to see our own contributions, simply to suit those who have lied and cheated and now want to protect their own egos. DuncanHill (talk) 20:11, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • If you read my comments below, deletion of talk pages entails a great deal more than "lied and cheated and now want to protect their own egos". Kingturtle = (talk) 20:21, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Put bluntly, I don't believe you. Blanking, and oversight of specific diffs are quite sufficient to cope with any likely problems. Even in the one case I know of where a deletion of a usertalkpage stuck, the Arb who insisted on it has admitted that there was no sensitive information involved, and that it was purely to stroke the vanity of the dishonest departing admin. the last thing we need is a green light to further abuses, which will inevitably be used to favour the few. DuncanHill (talk) 20:24, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep but allow for IAR and special exceptions There's no real consensus over what would be a privacy matter or anything like that, but I don't think it would be too much to ask if a crat made the decision to delete a user talk page for a certain special cases involving the safety of the user and whatnot. (For example, if someone was trying to out someone else, there may be information in the user talk history about that user that the outer did not yet see, etc.) But no, they should not be deleted usually and not always on a "per request". The request needs to be more than just "I quit". /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 01:08, 9 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep talk pages - Courtesy blank, rev del or oversight if necessary. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:50, 9 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep as a matter of course, unless special conditions merit it in rare cases. --Jayron32 05:54, 9 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. If necessary, delete specific edits containing inappropriate content, not the entire history. Page blanking via a normal edit is fine. --John Nagle (talk) 02:47, 10 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep but allow for IAR and special exceptions - I know that User:Fetchcomms said it above, but they covered much of what I wanted to say. And courtesy blanking should be fine upon user request per normal, as it retains the edit history. - jc37 05:56, 10 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep no pre-emptive deletion, unless the need arises. —Ғяіᴆaз'§Đøøм • Champagne? • 8:42pm • 09:42, 10 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Case by case. The last incident demonstrated the not-quite-vanished nature of RTV. It's not an "act of dissociating the identity of a user account from the identity of its owner". The account has been renamed, that's all. All the associations remain in place. I see no point of deletion in these circumstances: you delete talk page, but thousands of highly visible pages edited by the user (Arbcom decisions etc.) still list the old name. What's the point? On the other hand, RTV of a less public user may, indeed, be equivalent to vanishing, so I wouldn't rule out a well motivated deletion of talk page. East of Borschov 10:14, 10 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Support Keep talk page, weak support Case by case - Frankly, I'm not a fan of Wikipedia:Right to vanish as I think it is more likely to promote abuse by nefarious editors rather than protect well meaning ones. Being able to disappear and hide your past comments is against WP's general spirit of accountability and transparency. At the same time though, I do think that there are probably going to be some situations where it would be appropriate to delete. NickCT (talk) 15:18, 10 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. I think that talk pages should be kept. If somone makes an edit on an article then they talk page should be kept no matter what. If their contributions in an article stay then their talk page should too. In the cases where people are edit waring or consistantly violating WP:NPOV Their talk page helps put those edits in perspective/context. I have seen people on Wikiepdia who are flagrant POV warriors and I don't think it is right for their talk page to dissapear when their edits stay. Elmmapleoakpine (talk) 01:46, 11 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete restore as and when needed. Who's talk pages are worth saving? (A random archive of mine, User talk:Rich Farmbrough/Talk Archive 9 has been accessed 0 times in the last 3 months.) Anything really valuable should be migrated elsewhere anyway. Only overisght where policy dictates. Rich Farmbrough, 09:42, 12 November 2010 (UTC).[reply]
  
• Oppose mindlessness. Support thoughtfulness. Actually, that could probably be my response to nearly every question like this. We need to use judgment in these cases, balancing the possible harm against the possible benefits. A one-size-fits-all mindlessness is anti-policy. If we need to say something here, then something suitable pro-keeping and anti-mindless would work for me, e.g., "We usually don't delete user talk pages because they contain other editors' comments, although courtesy blanking is common." WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:17, 14 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete talk pages unless the RTV was in bad faith, used as an excuse to sock or evade scrutiny. The whole purpose of a right to vanish is to allow editors in good standing to leave with their privacy in tact. Shooterwalker (talk) 21:30, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • With all due respect, that doesn't make any sense. If their privacy was intact when they left, then deleting their talk page isn't necessary. Locking it so no one can post an outing message would keep their privacy intact, if that were a potential issue, and so locking is standard. If there are certain edits that violate an editor's privacy then those can be oversighted.   Will Beback  talk  22:16, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Enlighten the ignorant, devil's advocate me: What is the rationale for keeping them? Thus far, I've only heard "others wrote it" (I'm not talking about banned users or people who have a wall of vandal-warnings, and all that). Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 06:52, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Risker, in response to your points, my statement doesn't assume that people will return. My point is that talk pages have been contributed to by lots of editors, and much less so (and sometimes not at all) by the user in question. That makes user talk pages community property, just like article talk pages. Where pages that multiple editors have contributed to are deleted, the normal route is to gain consensus at AfD/MfD. Exceptions for real-life emergencies should always be respected, but they shouldn't become the rule. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 07:18, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• That's an interesting concept. Should we now consider it a punishable offense to delete user talk pages? Should all edits to user talk pages be restored because they're community property? Should we punish users whose archives aren't maintained in an easily retrieved manner? (I can think of people who are commenting in this RFC to whom some if not all apply to their own user talk pages.) "Someone else wrote there so it must be kept accessible to every editor in the project in perpetuity" is what you're saying. My response is that we delete "community property" every single day, by the thousands. Risker (talk) 07:26, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, we do delete material every day, but usually by MfD. Speedy deletion of pages written by multiple editors isn't the norm. And if it's my talk-page archives you're talking about, the old ones are easily retrievable, and I don't compile them anymore. Actually all I'm hoping will emerge from this is consistency, because as it stands when some people leave their talk pages are deleted, and others aren't. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 07:50, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Being that every case is different, there should be no consistency. Rather, each case should be handled on its own merits. This is one of the reasons we elect human crats and not deletebots. -- Avi (talk) 07:53, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• I think her point is that every deletion must be preceded by discussion... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 07:30, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Ahhh, so we can all mull over whatever personal, non-public reason that a user decides to exercise the RTV. Of course. The fact that on rare occasions high profile editors also exercise RTV means that every editor must publicly discuss their reason for having their talk page deleted. Seriously folks - most of the time when someone exercises RTV, it's never noticed by anyone but a few colleagues. Risker (talk) 07:34, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• I was just explaining what was meant. Someone has yet to convince me of this logic. Thus far I'm leaning towards your stance, Risker. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 07:42, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• What if User:Jimbo Wales decides to invoke RTV? Is he just another user who deserves the "right" to erase his name from the Wikipedia record and have his talk page, the center of so many key discussions, deleted? I'd say 'no', that's preposterous. Also, there is difference between mere high-profile editors and senior functionaries. It's comparable to the difference between a private citizen and a politician.   Will Beback  talk  13:37, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• It's pretty plain that the correct policy is to not delete user talk pages except in extraordinary circumstances. That's the actual practice that will always get quoted in this regard, whether or not it officially written down anywhere. Unfortunately, it's somewhere between pointless and counterproductive to put this policy in writing. There are two issues here: Firstly, there will always be circumstances that anyone can conceive of where the talk page ought to be deleted, and those circumstances have actually occurred in the past. That means that a written policy will have to endorse that valid exception. Secondly, the really problematic uses of talk page deletion don't arise from a dispute about what policy and practice already are - the opinion of the community is already well-known on this score. Rather, as I posted in the above section, the problematic deletions come about when a long-term editor is on friendly terms with many admins - maybe they are one themself - and can therefore reliably find someone to think "I'll delete the talk page just this once, because my friend is in extraordinary circumstances". Put an "extraordinary circumstances" exception in writing - as noted above, we would have to, if we put the common practice in writing - and the well-meaning administrators who cause such stupid messes will read it as "policy says I can delete my friend's talk page" and wikilawyer it until the cows come home, because this time it's different, what with it being their friend and all. So, I can't support recording the correct principle in policy anywhere. I can only note that it would be nice if the community would enforce the policy as understood by everyone - which means, at some point, focusing on the administrators who violate understood community norms by enabling these deletions, and not only on the editors who request it. — Gavia immer (talk) 07:21, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Who gets to decide what circumstances are extraordinary? What would constituted "extraordinary circumstances"? Risker (talk) 07:26, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Do you mean "What circumstances really are extraordinary enough to warrant deletion, in the opinion of an editor who opposes almost all such deletions?" - or do you mean "What circumstances will be interpreted as extraordinary?" Don't worry; I'll answer both. Extraordinary circumstances would include those where the talk page history could cause real harm to a real person. I do not mean bruised egos, much less a bruised reputation, but material of the sort that is already covered by the oversight policy such as threats or personal details used to harass - and even then deletion should only be used where selective oversight would fail. It might also include deliberate frustration of attempts to harass good-faith editors through the court system, which is definitely something we don't want to set down in any written policy, but which I would be perfectly willing to do if I had the bits to do so, even though I am in frank opposition to other deletions. Extraordinary circumstances do not include mere drama reduction. As to "What circumstances will be interpreted as extraordinary", the whole point of my position is that each and every administrator gets a bite at that apple, and some of them will be sympathetic to any given claim that the circumstances are extraordinary if they are already sympathetic to the editor requesting deletion, so that in practice any vanishing editor with many administrator friends can have the circumstances declared extraordinary if they make an effort at it - which is the whole substance of my comments. No specific standard for what "extraordinary circumstances" really are (we mean it!) will ever stop the pathology that leads to these deletions, and any recorded standard for it will give the chummy deleter that much room to claim that their actions are defensible - so we should not have a written standard, we should have an understanding that the underlying behavior is wrong. My apologies for the non-brevity in my comments so far. — Gavia immer (talk) 07:56, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• • For the record, I provided the same courtesy to other users in similar positions who were neither admins nor people with whom I had any interactions (ChrisO for example). I base my decision on usernames, real-life names, wikipedia history, and my best understanding of the psychological and emotional well-being of the users in question (and yes, I contact almost every one, especially if they request a talk page deletion). I never intend to play favorites and I hope that my record shows so. -- Avi (talk) 07:26, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Avi makes an important point here. This occasion is noticeable to a larger segment of the community because the user involved is fairly high profile. Most of the time, the user involved is relatively unknown, leaves for reasons that are never publicly discussed, and any deletions are generally unnoticed by anyone but perhaps a few individuals. Why should high profile editors be treated with less dignity and respect than the average user? Risker (talk) 07:32, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Everyone should be treated with dignity and respect, but that does not require deleting user talk pages. The definition of a high profile editor is one who is prominent and engaged. The more involved in the project an editor is the harder and more disruptive it is to try to make them "disappear". As I suggest below, we can't hide an elephant under a rug. So we should make reasonable efforts, such as deleting the user page, blanking the user talk page, and changing the username, but we should not be disrupting the project in a futile effort to make an elephant vanish.   Will Beback  talk  20:27, 9 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

But Avi you didn't, so far as I can tell, delete ChrisO's talk page. The contribs still exist but under a different account. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 07:50, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, I thought I did. Let me check. -- Avi (talk) 07:54, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am getting forgetful in my old age; I deleted a slew of other things, but not the talk. Then again, checking my emails, he never asked for a talk page deletion either. You are correct, Slim, and I have struck the reference above. Sheesh, time to start taking gingko biloba or something -- Avi (talk) 07:58, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No worries. I was thinking that would have been the best thing for R's talk pages—just make them hard to find for anyone who didn't know where to look and protect them against further editing. That removes the hostility factor. My intention here is not to have them undeleted, but just to introduce some consistency; there was a problem last month with another editor because of the same issue, so it's not just this occasion. I also wish R had taken more time to think about vanishing, because it seems very drastic, but that's a separate issue. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 08:07, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There is some misunderstanding in the comments area above of what RTV does, and when it is to be used. The option to vanish is a courtesy extended to any editor in good standing (including those who "flame out") who have reason to disappear for good. Requests are not always granted. Ban-evading socks, users wanting fresh starts, and users wanting to hide from difficult users do not have a right to vanish.

There is a range of forms in which RTV is implemented, few of which entail deletion of talk pages. In its simpler form, the username is changed. In more complicated forms, userspace pages may be blanked, protected or deleted. It is extremely important, even essential, in some cases for talk pages to be deleted. There are situations in which lives, privacy, and even credit ratings are threatened or put at risk if talk pages are not deleted. Online stalkers, trolls and harassers can and do permeate to the offline realm. There are sometimes extenuating circumstances in which the reasons why a person vanishes must be erased. In some cases, action must be taken immediately. So there isn't always time for community discussion. But any talk pages that are deleted can always be undeleted. Every namespace deletion can be restored.

Lastly, I think it is best practice for important discussions about articles to take place on article discussion pages, and for important discussions about arbcases not to take place on user talk pages. Kingturtle = (talk) 19:35, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Privacy

Sandstein suggests that an exception should be made for privacy. If someone makes a occasional edit that reveals too much it can be oversighted. But if an identity issue extends across thousands of edits, then deleting those edits seems a bit like trying to buy up all the copies of a newspaper that prints an embarrassing story.

Hypothetically, let's say John Smith, a distinguished professor, edits Wikipedia for years as user:Jsmith. He is a prolific editor, gets involved in community issues, and discusses his Wikipedia editing in other venues. Then, after making tens of thousands of edits, he wishes to vanish. If he says that his privacy is breached due to the association of Jsmith to John Smith, would it make sense to delete his talk page while leaving all of the other talk pages he edited and signed? It's necessary to make reasonable efforts to protect editor's privacy, but if they spend years using their real name it's unreasonable to ask Wikipedia to erase thousands of edits by hundreds of editors just to partially erase it. In this scenario, how is Smith's privacy enhanced by deleting his entire user talk page?   Will Beback  talk  08:23, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The edits on the other pages will be renamed. It is most likely that connections will be made on the user and usertalk and it is a simple extra layer of protection. Also, the deletion of the user and talk page often brings a measure of surcease and closure to the leaving editor. The actual edits are still in the database if necessary as well. -- Avi (talk) 08:27, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If they can be renamed on other talk pages then they can be renamed on the user's own talk page. As for closure, I think we should pay attention to how people leave (or are forced to leave), as a lot of problems arise from returning users. OTOH, Wikipedia is not therapy so emotional "closure" sounds does not seem like a valid deletion reason.   Will Beback  talk  08:36, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is not therapy. But we shouldn't forget there's a human side to editing the encyclopedia as well. SirFozzie (talk) 08:37, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly. Compassion should be a tool in every wikimedian's, nay every human being's, toolbox. -- Avi (talk) 08:39, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

But again, how does deleting the talkpage of hypothetical user:Jsmith actually protect his privacy in ways that oversight, renaming, search and replace, and page blanking can't?   Will Beback  talk  09:46, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

With deletion, an editor who knows what they're looking for and how to dig into a contrib history, but who lacks the admin bit, cannot see it. Hence, this was done to hide the editor's whole talk page history from public view. I agree this should be handled with compassion, I don't yet understand why leaving his contrib history intact behind a new username and a new, courtesy blanked userspace at least for now would not be compassionate. However, if there are indeed privacy worries which trump any others, that cinches it under policy, practice and good faith here, privacy worries are always extraordinary worries and should be taken that way. It would be harmful to the project and its volunteer base if details of such worries were talked about on-wiki.

RTV is a kind of last ditch safety hatch through which a volunteer editor can leave, likewise the great heed given to editor privacy on en.WP. Some trust is needed for RTV to do what it's meant to do and like it or not, trust (mostly in arbcom) has taken a canny blow with this. Moreover, a few will use this as a further, sharp wedge by which to drive their own hoped-for outcomes. It's a messy sink of volunteer time. Gwen Gale (talk) 10:31, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What aspect of privacy is regained by deleting an entire user talk page that can't be achieved just as well using other tools? Our hypothetical user:Jsmith has edited and signed hundreds or thousands of talk pages.   Will Beback  talk  11:25, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, it's very sloppy. However, the thinking is, one's userspace is where most of the privacy-spilling chitchat happens, where little bits dropped here and there can be tied together to mine personal information on someone. Skiving off the whole userspace takes care of a big swath of the worry in one swoop. Oversighting a sprawling TP contrib history post-by-post could take weeks of volunteer time. There will indeed be shreds littered here and there outside the userspace, but they'll be widely scattered and without the userspace and contrib history as a core from which to search, it'll tend to stop all but the most eager and time-rich from trying to data mine on a former user. As I said though, trust is needed for this kind of deletion to have a happy outcome. Most often, few care when a userspace goes poof. If JSmith was an arb who left messily and under a cloud, tongues will indeed cluck and even some teeth will gnash, no way to skirt that. All I can say is, JSmith is gone and isn't the worry anymore. If he's allowed to come back, the userspace will be restored. If he's allowed to come back and gather bits without being open as to his former user accounts, RTV is breached on the sly, which would be unfair and maybe even harmful. That does happen, by the way, which is why some editors would worry about it happening with JSmith. They can't believe he's gone forever. Gwen Gale (talk) 11:46, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's just so Orwellian, so like the memory hole and the changing slogan in Animal Farm, or less favorably, like Stalin's vanished foes, airbrushed out of photos. After RTV, does Jsmith become an "editor who may not be named" in discussions? We're tearing up a large volume of Wikipedia's history, even though no one has explained clearly how any actual privacy is regained by it. (If that's a WP:BEANS issue, please respond by email.)

As for deletion being used to prevent some editors' "hoped-for outcomes", whatever those might be, that implies that the deletion or undeletion of a user talk page has some political aspect, and that it isn't purely a privacy issue. As a policy matter, I don't see how that can be a legitimate reason for deleting pages.   Will Beback  talk  12:00, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Happily, his talk page history has now been restored (let's see if that sticks though). I'm not in on what any privacy worries may have been, I only know that there often are such worries and what the thinking is behind TP and contrib history deletion in dealing with them. Anyway, yes, it's Orwellian and woeful, but mostly because it's a messy glitch that this happened to a widely known and watched arb account. Gwen Gale (talk) 12:25, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The first point made in Vanishing from Wikipedia is "Having a bureaucrat change the username of the account". This does not make any sence if an old talk page is kept.--Mbz1 (talk) 14:30, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Then the talk pages should be moved, not deleted. Fram (talk) 14:32, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This might be a very good idea. Why not to implement it right now for the current case?--Mbz1 (talk) 14:54, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Rug

It's simple to obscure the contributions and existence of low-profile editors. But it's no easier for a senior functionary to vanish than it is for an elephant to hide under a rug. I think this guideline should acknowledge that Wikipedia is neither an illusionist nor a fireman, and that there is a practical limit to what we can do for departing editors. Also, from an ethical point of view I think it's unwise to imply that we can do more than what is actually possible. "We can do these things and little more".   Will Beback  talk  10:06, 9 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The way I look at is, if an editor is fairly new and unknown with a low edit count and few major contributions and they want to vanish without a trace then I don't have a problem with that, they haven't become ingrained in Wikipedia culture. But a high profile, long-term editor with multiple years and tens of thousands of edits, and many major contributions has become an integral part of Wikipedia's history, and the entire time has been editing with full knowledge and acceptance that everything they write will be public, and that once it's on the net it's not going away! Of course they should have the same right to vanish too but to delete their entire discussion history is unfair to the rest of the community. They cannot expect that their years of talk page contributions fully belongs to them anymore, that's like saying "Fine I'm leaving and I'm taking all my stuff with me! Hrmph!" just to rub it in. So it would depend on the circumstances of their departure as well if the decision should be made to delete their talk pages, it would have to be a very serious reason. If they have any privacy concerns I'm sure they would be aware of exactly what it is that they need oversighted, then simply request an oversighter to delete those specific revisions, so noone doesn't need to wade through all their edits for days looking for privacy issues. Rlevse: if you're reading this please understand it's not just directed at just you but any long-term/high-profile editors in general (including myself of course). It's just that your case brought the issue up and this is how I feel about it. You personally are an excellent Wikipedian, I respect you and all you've done for Wikipedia and I still want you to come back some day. -- œ^™ 16:38, 9 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

RE: "their talk pages". Are we talking about a user's main talk page, or about all user sub talk pages with multiple authors? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:11, 9 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The main talk page and any user talk subpages that contain (copied) archives of the main talk page. -- œ^™ 22:19, 9 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• On reviewing this RFC, I find this question as posed originally, and nearly everybody's comments, to be ambiguous. I assumed that we are talking only about the main talk page. The page where you go to talk to someone. The page that produces the orange bar. I would not have had a problem with someone deleting their copied talk page archives. You may have discovered a better way to manage your archives. Does archiving by moving the main talk page muddy things here? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:26, 9 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Archiving by moving muddies the waters, as the history is moved too - not just making it harder to search talk history, but if such an archive is deleted then the history goes too. Archiving by copying, which leaves the history in place, is infinitely preferable. DuncanHill (talk) 22:42, 9 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I believe what Duncan means is "…leaves the history of the main talk page in place…" -- Avi (talk) 22:49, 9 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed I do! DuncanHill (talk) 22:51, 9 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I believe that the logic behind this is that a user page normally only gets significant edits from one editor, and thus it qualifies for speedy deletion under G7: Author requests deletion. However talk pages are inevitably edited by many editors so they don't qualify under that same provision.

If an editor creates sub pages for discussions, or moves talk pages, then those would also not qualify under G7. Archives that are created through copying don't include any edit history, so can be deleted. (Often, because editors delete things before archiving, they aren't a complete record anyway).   Will Beback  talk  23:21, 9 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There is a small but important exception. If an article has been moved from mainspace to a userspace for "incubation" etc then it and its talkpage might need to be considered slightly differently, not a problem if the page was basically written by that user, but sometimes there is more than that, and if so even if the decision is deletion I'd prefer that it is first returned whence it came. ϢereSpielChequers 23:38, 9 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, any pages that have significant editing by others shouldn't be speedy deleted under G7 or U1.   Will Beback  talk  00:08, 10 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

And U1 and G7 (as very few admins know) already specifically exclude usertalk pages. What a pity we don't have a page where people could see what the speedy deletion criteria are. DuncanHill (talk) 00:13, 10 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly. There are no speedy delete criteria that allow for deletion of user talk pages, main or subsidiary.   Will Beback  talk  00:49, 10 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well there is G7 - "If requested in good faith and provided that the only substantial content to the page and to the associated talk page was added by its author.". ϢereSpielChequers 09:29, 10 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

G7 specifically says Note that this does not apply to user talk pages, which are not deleted except under very exceptional circumstances: see WP:DELTALK. If you are going to quote it, please do not leave out the bits you find inconvenient. DuncanHill (talk) 12:31, 10 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't find it inconvenient - I'm merely pointing out that there are some circumstances where the speedy deletion criteria does apply. My understanding of the policy is that it is the main user talkpage and archives created by moving rather than copying user talk that one is very reluctant to delete. But AFAIK subsidiary talkpages such as the talkpage of a sandbox are a different matter. ϢereSpielChequers 18:29, 10 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If the owner is the only one who has edited the talk page then I doubt there'd be any concern about deleting it. That would obviously apply only to fresh or inactive editors.   Will Beback  talk  09:42, 10 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Even highly active current editors can have subsidiary talkpages that only they have edited, I deleted one such recently. Also, as I understand it G10 can apply to talkpages. ϢereSpielChequers 10:06, 10 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but if there are other comments on a talk page the attacks can simply be oversighted or rev-deleted.   Will Beback  talk  11:37, 10 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, but that applies to any page. The examples I'm thinking of include where the only edit to a usertalk page is one that merits G10 deletion. ϢereSpielChequers 18:29, 10 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough. In that case deletion and oversight would have the same effect: removing the sole edit to the page.   Will Beback  talk  22:15, 10 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• It's sounding like CSD#U1 should be removed? It is sometimes misused, and when used properly is always redundant with G7? I guess this would mean that users don't own their userspace - that's been written somewhere already, hasn't it? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:25, 11 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's not always redundant to G7, because G7 is limited to pages where one editor is the only author of substance, and U1 is not. If some other user insisted on creating pages in your userspace, for instance, you could presumptively have them deleted under U1, and this is plainly correct and desirable as a speedy deletion criterion. Likewise with userspace pages that you control, even if others may have edited. It just needs to be made very clear (perhaps repeat it in between each word of the CSD criterion, the ((db-user)) template, and the default deletion summary) that U1 is not applicable to the user talk space. — Gavia immer (talk) 01:36, 11 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I believe this is true. I've never been aware of any way a user talk page could be speedied through a CSD category. The only way I've ever seen it done (or done it myself as an admin task, which hasn't been lately) has been through WP:RTV. Gwen Gale (talk) 10:58, 12 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]