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February 24

Category:Mikolas Josef

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:46, 3 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: All related topics are already sufficiently categorized in the "songs" subcategory, so this is an unnecessary parent per WP:OCEPON. StarcheerspeaksnewslostwarsTalk to me 23:23, 24 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Radio programs by station

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:45, 3 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Propose merging Category:Radio programs by station to Category:Radio programs by broadcast network
Nominator's rationale: Category of unclear necessity, due to a fuzzy and ambiguous distinction from Category:Radio programs by broadcast network. In much of the world, there isn't really a meaningful differentiation between stations and networks at all -- the phenomenon of local "stations" producing local radio or television content separately from national "networks" is fairly rare (although admittedly not entirely nonexistent) outside of North America, and in much of the rest of the world the terms are quite commonly used interchangeably for many radio services rather than actually referring to different things.
Of the nine subcategories filed here, seven (every single one with "BBC" in the name) are being categorized as both "radio programs by station" and "radio programs by broadcast network", and one (WOR) is listed for CFD below as a SMALLCAT. (There were formerly several other subcategories here for things like CBC Radio and NPR, which were all more properly categorized as networks rather than "stations", and have already been moved accordingly.) And even in the relatively few countries where there is a genuine distinction between stations and networks, radio programs produced by individual local stations and aired exclusively locally are rarely notable per WP:BCAST, so there's little to no reason for individual radio stations to have their own dedicated "XXXX-FM radio programs" categories at all.
So that really just leaves Manx Radio as the only category here that's neither inappropriate nor already dual-catted for both station and network status, but since that's a national service it wouldn't be strictly out of place if we recatted it as a "network" either.
Alternatively, of course, we could also come up with a new name for the target category that avoids any quibbling about whether any given category encompasses a "station" or a "network" -- "Radio programs by station or network", "Radio programs by service", that kind of thing -- but the distinction between a "station" and a "network" isn't universally clear (or consistently categorizable) enough to need two separate category trees here. Bearcat (talk) 19:34, 24 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:WOR radio programs

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:45, 3 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: WP:SMALLCAT for just three articles, not meeting the required conditions for special treatment as exceptions to that rule: CFD has a longstanding consensus against categorizing North American radio programs by individual local terrestrial radio station, so this isn't part of any established categorization scheme; and since American radio programs are already subcategorized by genre and/or decade rather than just being thrown directly into the undifferentiated Category:American radio programs, this isn't needed to help diffuse an overly large parent category since the radio programs here are already so subcategorized. Further, of the three articles here, one is not actually a radio program at all, but a biographical article about a person who was one of two hosts of a radio program not named after herself, and thus doesn't belong here at all -- and of the other two that are actually radio programs, one was a nationally distributed network program which thus isn't defined by any individual radio station. In other words, only one article here is actually about a radio program that was actually unique to WOR, and one article that fits the bill isn't automatically enough to justify a category. Bearcat (talk) 19:08, 24 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Ambassadors of Canada to Taiwan

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: keep. – Fayenatic London 12:02, 31 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Propose renaming Category:Ambassadors of Canada to Taiwan to Category:Ambassadors of Canada to the Republic of China
    • Category:Ambassadors of Thailand to Taiwan to Category:Ambassadors of Thailand to the Republic of China
Nominator's rationale: These categories contain some members who served before 1949, when the Republic of China still controlled the mainland, and were never posted to Taiwan. I'm aware there's some sort of established convention to always use Taiwan for the modern state/country/polity/whatever, but forcing it on these categories seems anachronistic. None of these countries currently maintains formal diplomatic relations with the ROC/Taiwan, so members of the categories will remain historical. This partially reverse a CFDS tagged by Marcocapelle in 2018, which in turn was prompted by this CfD of the parent category. --Paul_012 (talk) 18:06, 24 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Jewish magicians

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:44, 3 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: WP:OCEGRS — recent creation, so far I've found none that utilize Judaism in their magicianship. Atomus isn't definitively Jewish, may have been Samaritan. Uri Gellar was born in Israel to Jewish parents, but his claims of supernatural magic are prohibited by Judaism. Harry Houdini was a skeptic of Judaism, and married a Catholic. Jacob Philadelphia was a convert to Christianity, and objected to being called a magician. Matt Wayne (magician) has no cites that he is Jewish at all, so should be removed from all Judaism categories.
William Allen Simpson (talk) 14:21, 24 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Moreover, Michel Velleman was a Dutch magician who was Jewish, and died in an extermination camp. There's nothing in his article that mentions conducting a religious form of magicianship.
    William Allen Simpson (talk) 08:29, 25 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:12th-century Scottish Roman Catholic bishops

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: no consensus. Good Ol’factory (talk) 01:36, 16 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Category:Pre-Reformation bishops in Scotland are not properly described as Roman Catholic. Rathfelder (talk) 13:15, 24 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Before the year 1054 the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches had not split up. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:25, 25 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I know more about church history now. Rathfelder (talk) 13:15, 25 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • You would agree to renaming the pre-11th century to Roman Catholic for consistency? They seem SMALLCAT.
    William Allen Simpson (talk) 08:44, 25 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • No I'm just talking about the nominated categories now. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:18, 25 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is a simple answer to this question, namely consistency. The consistency argument usually prevails in discussions with conflicting naming principles. The way to come around it is to propose a new form of consistency, in this case by proposing to remove RC and EO in all countries until the 15th century. But I doubt there will be consensus for that. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:49, 26 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Starting in the 1st century we have one tree, and starting in the 21st we have another. That is perfectly sensible and reflects reality. I suggest that the boundary - the century where we start using denominations - should differ according to locality. 11th century in places where the Great Schism was an issue and later where the issue was the Reformation.Rathfelder (talk) 17:10, 26 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Whether or not it is an "issue" is very subjective. Both the Great Schism and the Reformation were issues for the continent of Europe as a whole, but not an issue in most individual countries, because countries took sides. (Ok with the Reformation there are exceptions like the Holy Roman Empire and France. But French Protestants did not have bishops at all.) Marcocapelle (talk) 17:55, 26 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Clarification "At the reformation the one church became presbyterian (without bishops)." Not quite. There were at least 2 churches in Scotland during the Reformation: a state-sponsored church and an underground church with loyalties to the Holy See. The latter might not have had the services of bishops for a while but as the "People of God", they were still the Church in Scotland. Laurel Lodged (talk) 11:44, 3 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Ugandan Anglican bishops

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: no consensus, but in light of this CFD, consensus may change on this quickly, so a renomination should be allowed without any particular waiting time. Good Ol’factory (talk) 01:40, 16 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Same thing. This is about location, not nationality. Rathfelder (talk) 12:06, 24 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agree. Although the Uganda problem is these two are both already under Category:Anglican bishops by country, this can be a pattern nomination.
    William Allen Simpson (talk) 08:46, 25 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This dates back to an old CFD. It was considered to be convenient that "Irish bishops" could be deemed to cover both Irish nationals who happened to be bishops (regardless of the continent of their diocese) and bishops whose diocese was in Ireland, regardless of their ethnicity. I consistently opposed this logical sleight of hand but have been consistently rebuffed by those who like fudge. Laurel Lodged (talk) 13:33, 25 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I am perfectly happy with the ambiguity, but I dont see how we can run two separate category trees based on the same ambiguity. For people for whom a different nationality is defining we can put them in more than one category, but I'm inclined to leave the bishops in the country of their bishopric, and if appropriate Category:Clergy from Staffordshire, or wherever. Rathfelder (talk) 15:21, 25 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agree that both trees may exist, but rather not independently of each other. Bishops in FOO should be a subcategory of FOOIAN bishops, such that undiffused articles are emigrants. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:25, 25 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Generally the emigrants were not bishops when they emigrated. And in the ancient categories its very common to read something along the lines of "Nothing is known about Bishop Herbert's early life....". Better the other way around. Rathfelder (talk) 22:52, 25 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The other way around there would not be any undiffused articles so then the two trees would coincide. While I think of it you are offering a valid argument to cut the tree by nationality altogether. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:59, 26 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Certainly for the ancient and even early medieval period it's often the case that we can only state with reasonable certainly the diocese of which the person was the ordinary / bishop. It is much more problematic to say where that person was born or to assign a "nationality" to that place if known. Was Paul of Tarsus Jewish, Syrian, Turkish, Roman, all 4 or some other combination? Laurel Lodged (talk) 14:50, 26 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • While meanwhile I think you are right, it's going to be a huge effort. Marcocapelle (talk) 22:55, 26 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Less than you might think. For most countries there is either a nationality category or a by country category. Not many have both and its apparent that the difference has escaped many editors. Rathfelder (talk) 19:46, 27 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:LPMud gamedrivers

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:41, 3 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: WP:SMALLCAT whose two items also appear in its parent category czar 05:25, 24 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Recipients of the Order of the Republic (Serbia)

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:40, 3 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Propose Deleting/Listifying Category:Recipients of the Order of the Republic (Serbia)
Nominator's rationale: WP:NONDEFINING (WP:OCAWARD and WP:PERFCAT)
When heads of state and other officials visit Serbia or vice versa, the Order of the Republic of Serbia is given out as souvenir. General Secretary Xi Jinping of China, President Abdelaziz Bouteflika of Algeria, and President Hugo Chávez of Venezuela are not remotely defined by this award. All of the category contents are now listified right here in the main article for any reader interested in the topic. - RevelationDirect (talk) 00:46, 24 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Recipients of the Order of Merit of the Bahamas

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:40, 3 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Propose Deleting/Listifying Category:Recipients of the Order of Merit of the Bahamas
Nominator's rationale: WP:NONDEFINING (WP:OCAWARD)
The Order of Merit of the Bahamas was established in 1996 and seems to be award to people who are already very prominent. So far, we only have 2 articles who mention the award in passing: 1 Prime Minister and 1 Olympic athlete who are already well categorized under Category:Prime Ministers of the Bahamas and Category:Olympic bronze medalists for the Bahamas, respectively. There wasn't a list so I created one right here in the main article for any reader interested in the topic. - RevelationDirect (talk) 00:46, 24 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Titles of nobility by nationality

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:39, 3 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Per Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2021 February 11#Category:Nobility by nationality, nobility categories should probably be by country rather than by nationality. Paul_012 (talk) 00:43, 24 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Noble titles of Andorra

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename/merge/delete as nominated. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:38, 3 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: This is a follow-up of Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2021 February 11#Category:Nobility by nationality, which renamed Category:Nobility by nationality and title to Category:Nobles by country and title, clarifying its members' scope as set categories containing people. I have since separated most country categories into Fooian noble titles (containing articles about titles) and Fooian nobles by title (containing people). These remaining ones now contain subcategories about people, and should be renamed accordingly. Iraq and Jordan I think should be converted to the adjective format. Not sure about the Crusader states etc., so I've left them as nouns. The four categories nominated for deletion were manually emptied by me during the process. Paul_012 (talk) 00:21, 24 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Rotorua District

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:34, 3 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: The official name for the district, and the title of the key article. Potentially a speedy, but the key article was only moved to this name last week, so I'm erring on the side of caution. Grutness...wha? 00:09, 24 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
  1. ^ https://forward.com/culture/179810/meet-the-new-generation-of-jewish-magicians/
  2. ^ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/jewish-museum-honors-magicians-houdini-and-copperfield-180976129/
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