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May 14

Category:World Cup of Baseball

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The result of the debate was Rename. Vegaswikian 23:27, 19 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Propose renaming Category:World Cup of Baseball to Category:Baseball World Cup
Nominator's Rationale: Rename,The official name of the competition is "Baseball World Cup." The main article and subarticles were all renamed two months ago. BRMo 23:16, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Formula 1 Designers

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The result of the debate was Rename, along with Category:Formula_One_Designers, to Category:Formula One designers. Vegaswikian 23:05, 19 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Formula 1 Designers (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

I did a manual move of this page and its contents to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Formula_One_Designers as per the naming standards of the F1 Wikiproject. Guroadrunner 20:28, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Agree - My next move was to set up a category-for-renaming to get this renamed without the big D, but I wasn't sure how that would impact the pages are categorized there (i.e. would I have to manually fix them all?). Guroadrunner 04:12, 15 May 2007 (UTC) (Original nominator)[reply]
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Category:Women obsessed characters

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The result of the debate was "Delete" --☑ SamuelWantman 18:48, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Women obsessed characters (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
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Category:Actors by film series

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The result of the debate was speedy delete (empty).--Mike Selinker 19:40, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Actors by film series (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Empty category. The listified categories are now in Category:Lists of actors by film series. Samuel Wantman 19:33, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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Actors by series categories

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The result of the debate was Rename. Vegaswikian 23:28, 19 May 2007 (UTC) Since many of the 'Actors by series' categories have now been been listified after this CfD decision, the parent categories need renaming:[reply]

Category:Actors by Australian television series to Category:Lists of actors by Australian television series
Category:Actors by comedy television series to Category:Lists of actors by comedy television series
Category:Actors by crime television series to Category:Lists of actors by crime television series
Category:Actors by drama television series to Category:Lists of actors by drama television series
Category:Actors by science fiction television series to Category:Lists of actors by science fiction television series
Category:Actors by soap opera television series to Category:Lists of actors by soap opera television series

This will help deter the recreation of the listified categories. -- Samuel Wantman 18:21, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

They are all tagged with ((listify)) which automatically puts them in Category:Categories to be listified then deleted --Samuel Wantman 19:02, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Good. As a side note, I just changed a lot of categories from "actors" to "cast members," but I discovered that a lot of the ones to be listified are just gone, with no replacement lists anywhere that I can find (James Bond, Cheers, etc.). Anybody know where they went?--Mike Selinker 19:40, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
James Bond and other cats with actors from multiple sources (multiple films in a series, actors from films and TV series, actors from film and amusement park attractions and the like) were deleted without listifying following new CFDs when the articles on the various sources have separate cast lists in them. Some categories have been deleted without separate list articles because the source articles have lists or there are character lists with cast information. Dunno which specific categories have been deleted under those circumstances so I don't know if Cheers was one or not. Otto4711 20:43, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That makes sense. Thanks, Otto.--Mike Selinker 21:32, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Tucker Family

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The result of the debate was "delete" -- ☑ SamuelWantman 18:56, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Tucker Family (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Delete - as with innumerable CFDs for categories named for families. There are two articles and they are easily interlinked through the text. The category is not needed for navigational purposes. Otto4711 18:08, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Legislatures of subnational entities

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The result of the debate was Rename. Vegaswikian 23:30, 19 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Country subdivisions" superceded "subnational entities" (cf for example List of terms for country subdivisions and disambiguation pages linked from it). David Kernow (talk) 17:52, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree here. Quite a few entities like the Ålands are historical exceptions within otherwise regular state structure, not standard administrative subdivisions. Pavel Vozenilek 01:39, 19 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Jewish communities destroyed in 1948

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The result of the debate was Delete both. The "Deletes" outnumber the "Keeps", and I spent some time seeing if the "Keep" arguments stood up to scrutiny. BrownHairedGirl remarks that "that being destroyed or depopulated in war is a defining characteristic of any settlement." This is the strongest of the arguments for keeping as many of the "keep" comments do not have supporting arguments. I went to take a look at Dresden and Tokyo to see if these cities were similarly categorized. They are not. Hiroshima and Nagasaki are categorized as being destroyed by atomic bombs. THAT is truly a defining characteristic. BobFromBrockley's concern that this type of categorization would lead to major overcategorization is convincing, especially since presenting this information as a list or article seems like a better alternative than a category. The existing list already presents more information and it can be linked to the articles about the towns when there is mention of their being destroyed. Categorization overemphasizes the information. Just because information can be structured as a category doesn't mean that it should be. -- ☑ SamuelWantman 09:52, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Jewish communities destroyed in 1948 (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)
added: Category:Palestinian communities destroyed in 1948 (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Delete, Extremely limited categorization, little/no room for growth. Some of the articles do not even mention having been destroyed and subsequently rebuilt, no notability may be an issue as well. Tarc 15:17, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So what about the already existing List of villages depopulated during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war ? Looking through this, it appears that most if not all are already there. Do we need both listification and categorization, then? Tarc 21:54, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This seems to be a case where it is useful to have both a list and a category; the list can be referenced, but the category is easier for navigation. In any case, the point applies that being destroyed or depopulated in war is a defining characteristic of any settlement. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:59, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment you do realize that "Category:Palestinian communities destroyed in 1948" was created second since this vote started and by someone who was interested in keeping the first category. --Abnn 16:21, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep them both, what's the problem? IZAK 23:44, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
My vote above for delete explains my issues with them, and to clarify I am voting delete on both as that is what I thought that was the scope of this CfD. --Abnn 05:54, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. These Polish examples are not comparable. With the Polish example, the equivalent category would be something like [[Category:Polish communities destroyed in World War II, which seems to me like a valid category. Using "1948" is a way of avoiding language that might no be viewed as neutral, such as the naqba or Israeli independence. Other comparisons seem equally disingenuous to me. BobFromBrockley 14:54, 17 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • I suggested the collapse (apparently disingenuously to you), but that would still leave us with hundreds or thousands of unneeded categories, Bob. How many wars have there been? a few hundred, a few thousand, tens of thousands; define it first, we'll count it second. How many "countries" (define that, and we can count them) have had "communities" (ditto) destroyed? Each is a "valid category" to you; so we can have literally thousands of categories that add little to what the text of the article should tell us. Carlossuarez46 23:16, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Spanish language novels

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The result of the debate was Keep. The reason is this category belongs to its Category:Spanish-language media. AW 04:28, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Spanish language novels (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Another redundant category. The only other subcategory of "novels by language" is "novels in Esperanto." Spanish-language novels are well covered by the various categories of national literatures So I suggest delete. Jbmurray 14:57, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment There seems to be much confusion as to what's meant by Category:Media by language. Most subcategories follow the example of Category:Chinese-language media, Category:Macedonian-language media, Category:Basque media (note here the language is at best implicit), etc., in assuming that what's meant by media is TV, radio, newspapers. A few throw in (for instance) Category:Anglophone music, which in context is far from reasonable. Hence no surprise that, beyond Esperanto, no other language has a category within Category:Novels by language. --Jbmurray 19:04, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment "Some nations produce novels in a multitude of languages." Indeed, and for those cases such a category would be useful. (I make similar comments about "Spanish-language writers," below.) It would certainly make sense to have a list of Chicano novels written in Spanish, for instance. --Jbmurray 19:36, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment It'd help if you (or Otto) clarify what's meant by "media" in Category:Media by language. Again, most subcategories assume that's what meant is "the media" as in the press, radio, TV etc. Given that, this is not a "reasonable" sub-cat. --Jbmurray 01:03, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reply It's a mid-level category only in this category of national literature (oh, and Esperanto, which is not a national literature), but none others. In other words it's a redundant anomaly, whether you consider it's head category to be media or literature. Nothing "recklessly negligent" about pointing that out. (How about a bit of WP:AGF?) --Jbmurray 05:11, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Courtroom dramas

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The result of the debate was Keep. Vegaswikian 00:08, 25 May 2007 (UTC) These are films where "a substantial part of the action is set in a courtroom". That's a subjective inclusion criterion (WP:OC, WP:NOR), so I suggest upmerging to the better defined Category:Legal films. >Radiant< 14:26, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Note: I've introduced a proposal to make courtroom drama the primary article, or to split it from legal drama. Mangoe 16:08, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Newspapers by publication frequency and one layer of subcats

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The result of the debate was Keep. Vegaswikian 00:09, 25 May 2007 (UTC) I question the practicality of categorizing newspapers by how frequently they are published. This is not a defining characteristic. We already have better classifications of newspapers, e.g. by country. >Radiant< 14:26, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Films about mental illness

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The result of the debate was Delete. Vegaswikian 00:06, 25 May 2007 (UTC) Pretty much redundant with with either Category:Psychiatrist films or Category:Films with a medical theme. Suggest merging. >Radiant< 14:26, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Television shows set in Los Angeles

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The result of the debate was withdrawn. >Radiant< 09:03, 16 May 2007 (UTC) These TV shows have pretty much nothing in common except that they all happen to be set (mostly, per the cat description) in one of the USA's largest cities. Cat'ing shows by theme would be useful, but by city is not a defining characteristic. >Radiant< 14:26, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Charmed Powers

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The result of the debate was Delete. Vegaswikian 07:21, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Charmed Powers (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Delete - categorizing powers based on their appearance on a specific TV show is overcategorization. Otto4711 13:12, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Actually I was right the first time...delete. Many of the articles are not specific to the TV show, but instead someone just went through the existing articles on paranormal abilities and added the category tag to those which appeared on the show. They shouldn't be in the show category any more than in the powers category. Otto4711 13:28, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Spanish-language writers

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The result of the debate was Keep. The reason is this category is a subcat of Category:Writers by language. Suggest the nominator should bring the categorization structure for discussion. AW 04:12, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Spanish-language writers (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

At present this is a sparsely populated category, but in theory it would encompass all Latin American and Spanish writers... who are at present quite happily categorized by nationality. (See for instance Category:Latin_American_literature.) So this category seems redundant to me and I suggest delete. Jbmurray 12:47, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I'd add that the entire category Category:Poets_by_language makes much more sense for some languages, notably minority languages and transnational languages (say, Gaelic or Arabic) than it does for others. And it make less sense for Spanish than for almost any other language. At least for writers in English one might add, say, Conrad or Indians who write in English. And for French one might use the category to include North African writers writing in French. But for Spanish, the category really makes very little sense except perhaps as some rather redudant meta-category that would agglutinate the categories "Argentine writers," "Bolivian writers"... "Spanish writers"... and perhaps "Ecuatorian Guinean writers." But what exactly would be the point of that? --Jbmurray 12:55, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I think the size of the category does matter, and that different languages can and should be treated differently (as in practice they are). If this means opening up a wider discussion, so be it. But here's an instance. While trying to clear up this category, I came across a Mayan-language poet, Humberto Ak'ab'al. Now, this does seem a distinguishing feature worth noting). It is far from identical with either Mexican or Spanish poets, and such poets in minority languages would otherwise be fairly difficult to locate. So I happily created the category, just as likewise I think that Category:Anglophone_Japanese_writers (even though it doesn't follow the conventional naming pattern) is helpful. But Category:Spanish-language writers or Category:Spanish-language poets? These categories aren't worth the upkeep. --Jbmurray 07:53, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

*Delete per redundancy. Even if there are other writers by language categories, the redundancy does not usually apply to those. Bulldog123 18:14, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Well, would you say there should be more articles or subcategories in the category, or fewer? How would you propose making the category useful? --Jbmurray 13:02, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm saying if it's not necessary it should probably go. Pretty much the same reasoning as the nom. Sam made a good point though. I'm keeping. Bulldog123 19:04, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Again, suggestions for how to make the category useful are welcome. For the moment, I've replicated the precedent set by Category:English-language writers, which is essentially to provide links to the national literatures. --Jbmurray 19:30, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd include ALL Spanish-language writers. The point of having different categories is to be able to browse through articles by different groupings. It seems clear to me that people would want to browse through these articles by language. This has come up in other areas. For example, way back when, all film directors were in one category. As the category got big it was decided to break the category up by nationality. But film is an international art-form. I added categories of filmmakers by language because it seems artificial to put Roman Polanski in the French film directors category (he's a French citizen). For the same reason, I'd expect to find Joseph Conrad in an English-language writers category along with all his peers from all countries around the world. -- Samuel Wantman 23:27, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Ufff! Seems a mess to me. The description of the category Category:English-language_film_directors is also off because the list of directors you present there is not also categorized by British, American etc. nationality. Many of them fit into those categories, but some rather small subsection do not (Polanski, but missing also are Carlos Sorín, Alfonso Cuarón, Alejandro González Iñárritu, Fritz Lang, Werner Herzog, Wim Wenders, François Truffaut, and Costa Gavras, to make just a very short list of other nationals who have made films in English). Plus I note that though you (mainly) have put in sterling work on English-language film directors, at present Wikipedia seems to suggest that there are no Spanish-language film-makers, only one Swedish-language one, etc. Anyhow, to return to this normination, perhaps if someone ran a bot to tag all Spanish, Argentine, Costa Rican, etc. writers as "Spanish-language" you could populate the category. At the moment it still seems to me rather useless category clutter. --Jbmurray 00:25, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • The film directors category is not complete (like most of our categories). I've put some effort into starting some of these categories, but I can't make this a full time job! Ultimately, all directors will be in categories for nationality and language. I don't see how adding one or two language categories for a writer is "clutter". -- Samuel Wantman 05:38, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I meant it when I said you'd put in sterling work on this category. You really have, and I am in some awe. And of course nobody can expect of you--or anyone else--to make keeping this (or any other) category operable a fulltime job. And to ensure that categories are easy to maintain they need to be fairly intuitive, so even relatively new or infrequent editors can figure out how they work. It's taken me quite some time to try to figure out how the various categories relating to Spanish and Latin American literature and culture work, and they still are far from clear, in fact they're rather a mess. (And I've been doing a lot of tidying up, too.) I don't think we should expect a similar investment of time from anyone else. Hence I'm looking to simplify the categories, make them more obvious, and so make it more likely that they can be kept in reasonable condition without having to keep in putting in such time. Too much duplication or too much complication, and they soon become close to useless. This is the rationale behind the three changes I'm suggesting on this page. --Jbmurray 07:24, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reply Can you explain this? This category doesn't go under Category:Latin American writers. Arguably, Latin American writers could fit into it, but again that seems overcomplicated to me. --Jbmurray 08:46, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment But let me say that if people would like to help out with sorting out these categories (I've already made enquiries on the Wikipedia project pages for South, Central, and Meso America), I would be delighted. Not sure that quickly adding levels to category trees really addresses the issues, however. --Jbmurray 08:48, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

KEEEEEPPPPPPPPP!

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Category:British people of French descent

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The result of the debate was Delete. Vegaswikian 07:22, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:British people of French descent (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Unworkable category as ambiguous wording could lead to people added whose only French descent is from Norman families which really would include most of the native British population. We already have Category:Anglo-French people for people with a very close connection to France and some people have expressed a wish to create a Category:British people of Huguenot descent along the lines of the categories already at Category:People of Huguenot descent which would at least include slightly less people than one that includes earlier French immigration. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 12:29, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:South American writers

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: "no consensus (keep)". The category has been greatly reshaped since it was nominated. I suggest that those still concerned continue discussions on the categories talk page if there are still issues. -- ☑ SamuelWantman 07:19, 25 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Category:South American writers (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

This category only had two entries: a Peruvian poet, and a subcategory of "South American writer stubs." The many other South American writers are categorized under nationality, for which see Category:Latin_American_literature. This category was not being used, and serves no useful purpose. Suggest delete. Jbmurray 11:17, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment And it might be worth adding that Category:South_American_writer_stubs manifests the confusion that plagues Wikipedia's distinction between South, Latin, Central, and Meso America... There are a bunch of (e.g.) Panamanian and Costa Rican writers in there, who as such are not paritcularly South American. What would make sense would be to reserve "South America" for the rather limited set of articles devoted to that continent's geography, and stick to Latin America for most other uses. For instance, there's little point maintaining separate categories (or articles) for South American culture and Latin American culture. But I guess that's another nomination. --Jbmurray 13:00, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment -- actually, the culture (and thus the literature) of South America is quite different from that of Central America, or the Caribbean, or Mexico. This is why they all need separate categories, but they will all fall under the main umbrella Category:Latin American writers. Even in South America there are major differences, i.e. Argentina's culture is very Europeanized, while Bolivia's is very indigenous. --Wassermann 09:29, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Once again... South America is a geographical category rather than a cultural one. The literature and culture of South America are not sufficiently different from that of (say) Central America for there to be courses or programmes in South American literature. Or rather, the continuities and similarities far outweigh the differences, without denying further internal differentiations. Hence we have Latin American Studies, Professors of Latin American literature, and so on. (Formerly, especially in literary studies, the category was Hispanic or Spanish America, but this is today mostly outmoded. And its true that some Latin Americanists would describe themselves as also, for instance, Andeanists or specialists in the Southern Cone, or indeed Central Americanists... but never South Americanists; the term doesn't exist.) --Jbmurray 13:36, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I've been thinking about this suggestion. I think it's worth a try, to see how it would work out. It's certainly a step forward. So as nominator, I'm happy to change my proposal to rename. (I'll probably put forward a bunch more renaming/deletion proposals down the line to try to rationalize the whole series of South/Latin/North/Central/Meso American problems.) --Jbmurray 07:39, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

::Comments -- yes, by far it is easiest to start by lumping them all under "Latin American writers" (the largest umbrella category), since you can't get any larger than that except possible Category:Spanish-language writers. Then, if desired, you COULD have 'trickle' down categories of like "Central American writers," "South American writers," "Caribbean writers," etc. So, after this category's name is changed I may actually recreate this "South American" writers category JUST FOR the countries of South America (since I am personally interested in that continent), but it would of course be a subcategory of this larger (soon to be) "Latin American" one. --Wassermann 08:59, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

:Rename -- I agree with BrownHairedGirl -- rename to Category:Latin American writers, and then create the other categories I mentioned above to create more specific regional/continental categories with this "Latin American writers" category at the helm of all of those. --Wassermann 08:29, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Reply Wassermann, which categories above? I'm getting increasingly confused, and fear that the unintended result of my proposal to start simplifying and making these categories is that they are becoming ever more complex and unmanageable. --Jbmurray 09:05, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wassermann, again thanks for your enthusiasm, but do you think you could go about your fix in a collaborative manner? I've spent a while working on these categories, and would be happy to work with you (and other editors), but suggest that some thought and communication go into the effort. I put forward these delete proposals as an step towards simplification. I'm open to hearing other suggestions, hence I agreed to BHG's idea for a rename rather than a delete of this category. But by making the multiple changes you've made in the last few hours, things have become much more complex. --Jbmurray 09:33, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, however much I sleep on it, the category continues to be redundant. So delete still. --Jbmurray 18:55, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
For one thing the great majority write in 2 languages, not the 34 or whatever the EU officially uses. Most South American writers are in a national category also, which is fine by me. Not everyone can remember which South American country a given writer comes from, especially as many have moved to other countries etc. Johnbod 21:32, 17 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment This is one reason I've been persuaded that rename is a better solution than delete. "Latin American writers" is a good head category, in line with Latin American literature. "Latin America" is a cultural category. South America is not, as it's purely geographical. (Nor is the EU, as it's a poliical category.) There's no such thing as South American literature. There are, for instance, no courses or professorships in that non-existent topic. On the other hand, Latin American literature is an important and valid field (albeit one whose limits are indeed, like the limits of Latin America, somewhat contests). --Jbmurray 09:47, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Johnbod's argument is equally valid for Europe: Not everyone can remember is a particular writer is Slovak or Slovene or Czech, and people move around, from Romania to France; Poland to England; Germany to Italy; England to Greece; etc. As noted by Jbmurray there is no South American literature, but there is Latin American literature, just like there is European literature, also a common discipline in US universities, and professorships, etc., further strengthening the analogy. Carlossuarez46 23:24, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:20th century video games, Category:21st century arcade games and Category:21st century video games

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The result of the debate was Keep. The reason is these categories go with the type of "X by year/decade/century" formula. AW 04:19, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Since we've had about 30 years of video games so far, it seems hardly worthwhile to subcategorize this per century. These cats are only placeholders for the various "year" cats. Suggest upmerge to Category:Video games by year. >Radiant< 10:50, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Historical board games

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The result of the debate was nomination withdrawn. David Kernow (talk) 23:30, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Disambiguation. (Are these board games that are old but e.g. no longer played, or are they board games involving the old...?)
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Category:Chaotic BattleZone

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The result of the debate was Delete. Vegaswikian 07:23, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Chaotic BattleZone (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Material not suited for a cat page. Od Mishehu 07:56, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Jewish mathematicians

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The result of the debate was ...

I've spent quite some time reading through this. There are more arguments to delete than to keep, but I am more concerned about the arguments being made pro and con, than the number of "votes". Over all I think the rationales for keep boils down to the following. 1) Jews are a nation, 2) this category fills out a hierarchy of Jews by occupation similar to other religions, and 3) the connection between Jews and mathematics is non-trivial.

I think the first argument is not NPOV. This is just asking for more contentious debate. The entire 'Occupation by nationality' categorization convention we have created is not a policy. It has inherent notability problems. Its origin at Wikipedia is the result of early constraints on the categorization system. There are many subcategories that would fail the 'notable intersection' test.

The second argument also has problems. If we decide to remove a hierarchy of non-notable intersections and they were members of a different hierarchy, then that other hierarchy will not be fully populated. This is the case with some of the examples mentioned, such as Category:Hindus by occupation and Category:Roman Catholics by occupation. The occupations listed are directly related to the religion, as most of them are, and probably all of them should be. This is quite the norm with categories. Just because we have a hierarchy, it does not mean that it should be fully populated with subcategories. This is a well established categorization practice. If we are not vigilant about removing non-notable category intersections we will weaken the value of the entire categorization system. So this argument is moot. It really boils down to the third argument which is notability.

The relevant guideline for the third argument is the notion that a reasonable article could be written about the subject of of Jewish mathematics or Jewish mathematicians. Let's assume that an article could be written about Jewish mathematics, even though I don't see any evidence in this debate that it could. The Jewish mathematicians in this category are notable because they are Jews and they are mathematicians, not because they are scholars of Jewish mathematics. If there are scholars of Jewish mathematics, they should be in a category renamed to make the distinction clear because otherwise it will be filled with Jewish mathematicians who are not scholars of Jewish mathematics. If there are such mathematicians, someone can create the category with a non-ambiguous name and start populating it.

This leaves the notion that there is something special about being Jewish and being a Mathematician. The problem with all of these intersections is that on the surface they all look reasonable and important. Whenever someone sees one ethnicity, religion, sex, etc... listed, they will want to include their own. Having all of these intersections populated is unworkable, and we have often removed many of the ones that have non-notable connections. The connection has to be more than just having a disproportionate number of people in the field. There should be something intrinsic or historically significant that connects the group of people with the profession that justifies having the category. In other words, the category should be useful in the pursuit of some avenue of study. The reason to have a category of Jewish mathematicians is because it would be useful for studying some topic which I'll call "X". If you are studying this topic "X", you'd want to look at the articles in Category:Jewish mathematicians because you will find out more about "X" because "X" is discussed in these articles. If the category doesn't help in the pursuit of learning about "X", then you don't need the category. I have not seen any evidence in this debate that "X" is anything besides "Mathematicians that are also Jews". The topic "Mathematicians that are also Jews" is not a topic worthy of having a category. Therefore, the result of this discussion is "Delete".

This was a long and drawn out debate. I am coming to believe that most of the categories that lead to these long debates should be deleted just because they are so divisive. I hope that everyone can look to create alternatives that are less controversial. If there is something to be said about "Mathematicians that are also Jews", then create List of Jewish mathematicians, add lots of citations. Lists such as these might be able to survive in a middle ground, not quite notable enough to become a category, and notable enough to survive AfD. Also, If anyone has a problem with my decisions, I hope you can discuss it with me before going to DRV. Shalom. -- ☑ SamuelWantman 08:48, 20 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Jewish mathematicians (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Procedural nomination. This category was deleted as part of a prior nomination. The deletion was overturned at deletion review and is now here for separate consideration. Please review the two prior discussion. As thge closer of the deletion review I'm abstaining. ~ trialsanderrors 06:05, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

*Neutral for now, but leaning towards delete. First, I'm not entirely clear why the April 29 CfD was overturned at DRV. I have read the recent deletion review, and it seems that a common thread in the "relist" or "restore" votes was the category should have been discussed separately from other religions, because Judaism is both a religion and an ethnicity. A further argument was that Judaism should also be considered as a nationality.
I have also reviewed the discussions at CfD 2006 Sept 12 and CfD 2006 May 12 … and after reading it all, I have yet to find a single clear statement of a valid reason for keeping this category.
It's a general principle that we do not divide occupations by religion or ethnicity, unless there is evidence that the intersection is itself notable: in other words, that people of that religion or ethnicity will be practising that occupation in a particular manner because of their religion or ethnicity. We have generally accepted that the intersection is notable in the case of literature and philosophy (and indeed elsewhere in the humanities), where religious traditions and beliefs frequently do have a strong influence; and we have also accepted that case in law and politics, so we have categories of Jewish lawyers and Roman Catholic politicians.
So this category does not fit the general map of intersection categories which we keep. There have been a lot of arguments at DRV and CfD which amount to WP:USEFUL or WP:ILIKEIT, neither of which are valid reasons for keeping a category. Before making up my mind, I want to hear the arguments. Is there any any reliable evidence that there is a particularly Jewish way of doing mathematics?
A further argument at previous CfDs and at DRV was that Jewish people should be regarded not just as an ethnic/religious group, but as a nationality. So far, that looks unlikely to me as anything other than a minority view: the article Jew opens with the sentences "Jews are members of the Jewish people, an ethnic group originating in the Israelites of the ancient Middle East and others who converted to Judaism throughout the millennia. The ethnicity and the religion of Judaism are strongly interrelated, and converts are both included and have been absorbed within the Jewish people." Does anyone want to offer evidence that this is wrong? (Note that the important article Who is a Jew? is asking a different question, so please don't just link to that article as an answer. It asks who is a member of the group, but he issue here is what the group is).
So on the evidence so far, there is no reason to keep this category. But at DRV there were many editors who argued that there was something to add, so before confirming my !vote, I want to hear their arguments. Does anyone have anything to say that actually addresses the questions I have raised? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:41, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I was one of those editors who thought this would be the appropriate place to discuss the differences, though I also expressed skepticism as to whether the category would survive. I accept the idea that Judaism is both ethnicity and religion, and wouldn't question the idea that a "Jewish writers" category, for example, should survive. But can someone make the case for this being a notable intersection, where ethnicity (or, indeed, any element of Judaic history or culture, including religion) has some significance?A Musing 14:25, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Seems like a rather bureaucratic rule, that we only do certain intersections and all others are irrelevant. Why not have another category if someone shows the relevance of the intersection?A Musing 14:26, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Why? Because there are important correlations between nationality and the type of mathematics one does, due to the differing educational emphases in different nations, and national pride in certain subjects; Hungarians are known as great combinatorists, for instance. Although there have been historical attempts to make similar claims for religion, they have I think been founded less on evidence and more on bigotry. —David Eppstein 20:16, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Because from that argument, a person with eight "traits" (e.g. a female african-american post-modernist author from Iowa born in 1960 with a college degree who won a Booker award and is active in politics, hardly implausible and several people have more) would have two to the eighth power categories, or 256 categories. That is why we restrict it to relevant intersections. >Radiant< 08:28, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
My question wasn't why restrict it to relevant interesections. My question was, why should there be a "rule" that once we have categorization by nationality or century, that we should not categorize by other relevant intersections? If it is shown that this is a relevant intersection, should the presence of the nationality or time period schemes be considered at all. A Musing 11:32, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think this is Ep's comment. You probably signed it with a page break instead of the tilde. Ep, all you're doing is looking up "Jewish mathematicians" on a search engine and pasting the results. One of your links is even a cache from a search engine. You also haven't separated out the results that actually gave you anything of worth on "Jewish mathematician" from results that gave you "German-Jewish mathematician," which often is about just one person. I think you were already given this example but what about Greatest Black mathematicians, African American Mathematics, Black Mathematicians and Their Works, and African American mathematics. So you think we can write an article on Black mathematics and have the category Category:Black mathematicians too? Bulldog123 16:56, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
WP:POINT Ep. You didn't even fix my typo when you copied and pasted that. Bulldog123 16:56, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

--Epeefleche 16:09, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Can you prove its notable and relevant? Bulldog123 21:14, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Yes -- see discussion of notability, and references to articles, books, etc. on the category.--Epeefleche 22:06, 17 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes I do have small interest in the faith of a mathematician, as faith can bring with it a whole curtural background which can influence the type of mathematic someone undertakes - what are seen as the important questions in that faith. I recently had chance to edit Kanti Mardia, a Jain. That fact in itself is of interest as you only come across Jains, in this case his Jainism is of significance as he has published works on Jainism and science, an Jainism did have import for Mardia the person. Hence I have no problem with a Category:Jains but I'm less thrilled about a whole tree. These are largely orthogonal charateristics and should be treated as such. --Salix alba (talk) 20:18, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Userfy (term?) it? Bulldog123 21:14, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2005 April 15#Category:Jewish American economists
  2. Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2005 April 15#Category:Jewish American philosophers
  3. Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2005 August 31#Category:Secular Jewish philosophers
  4. Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 January 11#Category:Jewish-American singers
  5. Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 June 16#Category:Jewish American spies
  6. Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 June 20#Category:Jewish groups
  7. Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 August 8#Category:Naturalized Jewish citizens of the United States
  8. Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 September 3#Category:Self-hating Jews (alleged)
  9. Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 December 26#Category:Self-hating Jew
  10. Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2007 January 10#Category:Jewish-American businesspeople
  11. Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2007 February 15#Category:Converts to Orthodox Judaism
  12. Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2007 March 10#Category:Jewish Economists.
  13. Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2007 March 10#Category:Jewish inventors
  14. Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2007 April 14#Category:Jewish figure skaters.
  15. Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2007 April 25#Category:Jewish American figure skaters
  16. Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2007 April 25#American lawyers by ethnicity
  1. "Jewish mathematicians in the German-languaged academic culture", Exhibition at Humboldt University in Berlin, Germany, March 2007,
  2. "Ernst Steinitz and Friedrich Wilhelm Levi - German Jewish mathematicians and their families in the 19th and 20th centuries", by Harald Gropp, Universität Heidelberg, 2005,
  3. "The effects of fascist anti-Jewish persecution on the Italian mathematical milieu," by A. Capristo, Center for American Studies, Rome (paper considers impact of anti-Semitic laws on the Italian mathematical milieu at the end of the Thirties. Figures on aryanization of this sector of Italian academia are provided. Reference is made to unsuccessful nomination of Jewish mathematicians to the Accademia d’Italia. Consequences that the persecution against the Jewish scholars had in aggravating the isolation and the gap between the Italian and the international mathematical community between the two world wars is considered), and
  4. Reference to publication entitled "Jewish Mathematicians," covering up to 1550.

You can find anything to support a point of view. Sleep On It 02:19, 17 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

When you're ready to present that "abundant evidence" do let everyone know. Bulldog123 16:03, 17 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Bull, I'm sorry ... a vandal has been deleting my comments on this page. I've restored it above.--Epeefleche 22:06, 17 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Holdenhurst, I would welcome a special category (or list or template) for those pre-modern Jewish mathematicians whose Jewishness led them to take a particularly significant role linking European maths to Arabic maths. But what we are discussing here is a category where that sort of significantly Jewish maths would be a very snall minority. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 04:02, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is not really correct. We have Category:Hindus by occupation, Category:Roman Catholics by occupation, and Category:Muslims by occupation. We also have ethnicity/occupation cats like Category:Romani people by occupation, Category:Asian Americans by occupation, Category:American writers by ethnicity, etc. The main objection seems to be when this is used for anything besides writing and music. In particular when it's used in mathematicians/scientists as mathematicians/scientists aren't human beings per se so much as they are machines to do science or math.--T. Anthony 13:04, 19 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is no objection to having such categories, as long as WP:OCAT is applied to determine whether particular subcategories are notable. Geometry guy 07:22, 20 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • No one is proposing to delete this category because of an argument over one article. However, this article illustrates the kind of debate that would only intensify, if this category is kept, as it is repopulated. The problem is that without a clear purpose for the category, there is clear no way to decide who belongs in it. This is what WP:OCAT is for, and why it should be applied in this case. Geometry guy 07:22, 20 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Except you haven't proven there is a way to write an article, with no original research, on "Jewish mathematics." Unless of course you want to talk about what Nazis considered "Jewish mathematics." That of course included many gentile mathematicians who the Nazis just wished to discredit too. In the same way there is "Aryan mathematics." You would support Category:Aryan mathematicians, Ep? Also, could you make sure to sign all your comments? There are a few comments above and I think they're by you but I can't tell. Bulldog123 16:31, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
In general, it is only since the Age of Enlightenment that Jews were recognized as citizen of other countries. Prior to that, they were not allowed to enter universities, etc. In certain countries, like Saudi Arabia Jews still cannot be citizen if I am not mistaken (as well as Chrisians I think). My question is why Jews should forced in cats of the country of their birth if for centuries they were denied basic civil rights by these very countries? Why not consider Jews as a nation which survived for two thousand years without a statehood? Mhym 18:10, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Usually such migrants would be categorized by both country of origin, and the country in which they settled. I fail to see a problem with that. Geometry guy 07:27, 20 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This is an issue that needs a wider debate, and there is some signs that such a debate is beginning. User:A Musing has suggested to me that he leans towards keeping this category until something comes out of such a discussion. I fail, however, to see what that would achieve. Deleting this category loses no information, and it can easily be recreated once there is a clear understanding what categorization by nationality means in an historical context in general, and for Jewish people in particular. There may be a case for creating instead Category:Medieval Jewish Mathematicians, for example. On the other hand, while these issues remain unsolved, keeping this category goes against current guidelines and is a recipe for trouble. As BrownHairedGirl points out, a general categorization of Jewish people by occupation is untenable, so at the moment we use WP:OCAT to determine whether such a category by occupation is notable. Those who wish for a wider classification of Jewish people by occupation need to initiate a debate on the subject, perhaps in the context of a wider debate on nationality.
For Category:Jewish Mathematicians no particular case has been made. Keeping this anomaly will do nothing to further this wider debate. It will only create further headaches for mathematician article editors, as membership of a poorly defined category is disputed. So I stand by my earlier view that this category should be deleted. Geometry guy 07:22, 20 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Happy5214

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The result of the debate was delete. I see no reason to send this to WP:UCFD as it will be deleted anyway, and this should have been speedied from the beginning. THis is for the betterment of Wikipedia per WP:IAR. If anyone has a problem with this, they can always do a deletion review. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 04:38, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Not needed. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 04:51, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

How do I provide quick links to my subpages?? -Happy5214 16:18, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Like this: //en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Prefixindex&from=Happy5214&namespace=2 --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:38, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There is a javascript that has recently been implemented at commons that adds a "Subpages" button under the toolbox which links them to the aforementioned page. If people think it's a good idea to implement it here I'll suggest it on the relevant pages. Yonatan talk 02:08, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It sure helps me out at Commons, and I know it will help over here as well. Might as well make a proposal to all Wikimedia! V60 干什么？ · VDemolitions 03:29, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I've suggested it at the technical village pump. Yonatan talk 02:33, 17 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I guess you can delete it now!!
-Happy5214 16:21, 17 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Eastern Rite Catholicism

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The result of the debate was Rename. Vegaswikian 23:18, 19 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Propose renaming:
  1. Category:Eastern Rite Catholicism to Category:Eastern Catholicism
  2. Category:Eastern Rite Catholic primates to Category:Eastern Catholic primates
  3. Category:Eastern Rite Catholics to Category:Eastern Catholics
Nominator's Rationale: Rename, to match the main article Eastern Catholicism, which was renamed in February 2007: see discussion here and vote here. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 04:40, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Boston University Terriers head basketball coaches

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The result of the debate was Rename. Vegaswikian 23:20, 19 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Propose renaming Category:Boston University Terriers head basketball coaches to Category:Boston University Terriers men's basketball coaches
Nominator's Rationale: Rename, conform to naming standards to include all coaches, not just head coaches. fuzzy510 04:08, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Henry Iba Coaching Tree

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The result of the debate was Delete. Vegaswikian 07:24, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Henry Iba Coaching Tree (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Overcategorization. Text is even taken straight from Henry Iba's article. fuzzy510 02:36, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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Category: 1960s American cartoons + similar

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The result of the debate was Rename. Vegaswikian 23:21, 19 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Propose renaming Category:1960s American cartoons to Category:1960s American animated television series
Propose renaming Category:1970s American cartoons to Category:1970s American animated television series
Propose renaming Category:1980s American cartoons to Category:1980s American animated television series
Propose renaming Category:1990s American cartoons to Category:1990s American animated television series
Propose renaming Category:2000s American cartoons to Category:2000s American animated television series
Nominator's Rationale: Rename, because "American cartoons" is unspecific and could cause confusion as to the inclusion of theatrical animated short subjects and animated feature films. FuriousFreddy 02:16, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Big 12 Conference head basketball coaches

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The result of the debate was Delete. Vegaswikian 07:25, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Big 12 Conference head basketball coaches (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Completely unnecessary branch on the hierarchy for college coaches. We already sort by school and include all coaches in the respective categories, so in a way, this one has the unique distinction of being both too exclusive and too broad at the same time. fuzzy510 02:15, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete as used it is to broad because school by school is sufficient. If all big 12 school coaching cats were subcats of this category it would seem correct, but schools change conferences. Any categorization by athletic conference is suspect due to dynamic nature of conference affiliation. TonyTheTiger (talk/cont/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 19:24, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Fictional morphine addicts

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The result of the debate was Speedy delete as CSD G4. Xoloz 23:45, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Fictional morphine addicts (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Delete, Overcategorisation. And odd. Just odd. Dudesleeper · Talk 01:35, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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