The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. (non-admin closure) Nordic Nightfury 13:58, 6 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Kristi Addis (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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I am not convinced that the winner of a national teen pageant is default notable for such. I am willing to assume that we can dig up enough information on Miss American and probably Miss USA, but I am not convinced with Miss Teen USA. Doing the actual source hunt on Addis supports my views. In the article we have an IMDb link, but IMDb is not considered a reliable source. We have a link to an autobiographical article by Addis, but the link does not work. Even if it did, she is writing about herself, and that is not secondary or third party. I found online a possibly different additional article by her on her. I also found a picture with caption from the local paper in Muscle Shoals when she won, not even an article, just a picture with caption. Then I found a book that has a bunch of stories about fishing where it mentions she talked to the judges at the pageant about how she likes noodling, which is the act of fishing for catfish with only ones bare hands. The book is entitled Fishing's Greatest Misadventures and mentions Addis for half of one paragraph in a 420 page book, that is not at all scholarly. The passage that mentions Addis is actually lifted (possibly with attribution, I have not read the whole sites, but it word for word the same for multiple paragraphs) from the book oodling for Flatheads: Moonshine, Monster Catfish, and Other Southern Com by Burkhard Bilger published by Simon and Schuster in 2001. This 256 page book mentions Addis in one paragraph on page 21. A 2006 article in the New York Times attributed the number of 2,000 noodlers just in Missouri to a professor who studies the sport. However somehow the 2006 article focused on Misty McFarlin, while admitting 17-year-old girls in the sport are extremely rare, and her father Lee McFarlin. Lee McFarlin was Bilger's high school classmate, and is also the noodler he focused on. My next find is her being mentioned in this interview [1] with Miss Teen Mississippi USA in 2014. None of this seems to be substantial enough to establish notability. John Pack Lambert (talk) 04:26, 3 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Mississippi-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 12:05, 3 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fashion-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 12:05, 3 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 12:05, 3 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Strong keep national titleholder, currently away from desktop but can source [2] PageantUpdater (talk) 15:09, 13 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment she won the national Miss Teen USA title, I do not think this is a title of the level that confers notability. Just because a title claims to be for the whole USA does not make it notable. In almsot all competitions, titles limited to people who are minors are considered to be less notable, and rarely enough to make a person notable.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnpacklambert (talk • contribs) 19:44, 15 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Redirect to Miss Teen USA per WP:BIO1E and not well known one at that. Nominator's analysis of available sources is compelling and shows that this level win does not lead to notability. The newspaper coverage is all about the win, with no substance as to the subject herself, which illustrates BIO1E well. Cited material can be moved to the Miss Teen USA article.

Note: While searching, I've located the Miss Teen USA 1987 article -- should this perhaps be redirected as well? K.e.coffman (talk) 06:30, 16 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep for now. Discussion about notability guidelines has already started on the Talk page for the Beauty Pageant project. No harm will be done by closing this nomination as "keep" and letting the project-level discussion take its course. NewYorkActuary (talk) 03:55, 17 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: The discussion is happening here, and there is no indication that the consensus would be that a Miss Teen USA would be considered notable. Thus I don't believe that suspending this AfD would serve a useful purpose. K.e.coffman (talk) 04:29, 27 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Redirect name to Miss Teen USA for 1987. Not notable for stand alone article. Kierzek (talk) 22:31, 28 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Redirect: I am not going to present that a "one time wonder" deserves an article going against current policy and advancing a lifelong stub. Otr500 (talk) 11:44, 30 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep: This one's national and a major pageant. Also, from the pre-Google era, so it will be tougher to find news coverage, as it would have been in print newspapers. Montanabw^(talk) 18:28, 30 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Beauty Pageants-related deletion discussions. PageantUpdater (talk) 00:19, 31 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: The newspapers are searchable with Google's newspaper search, and all the articles that come up are about the event (the subject's win or crowning of the next year's contestant). I don't see anything about Ms Addis herself. This is a WP:BIO1E situation, and deletion or a redirect is appropriate. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:25, 31 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comment BLP1E says there are three criteria to be met, one of which is "If the event is not significant or the individual's role was either not substantial or not well documented. ". It cannot be argued that that applies here, therefore you cannot argue to delete under that. PageantUpdater (talk) 03:30, 31 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment -- I would argue that the event in 1987 Miss Teen USA 1987 was not "significant". The series as a whole may be significant, but not the individual events. K.e.coffman (talk) 15:55, 2 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment See also WP:Articles for deletion/Katie Blair (2nd nomination) and WP:Articles for deletion/Tami Farrell both leaning towards keep at this stage PageantUpdater (talk) 03:33, 31 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep: She and her victory seem to be sourced by a whole lot of reliable sources. pbp 13:43, 31 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I still do not think anyone has shown that these sources overcome the BLP one event guidelines.John Pack Lambert (talk) 03:05, 1 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm struggling to understand why this is in play. One of the three conditions to be met is "If the event is not significant or the individual's role was either not substantial or not well documented". The Miss Teen USA pageant is a significant event, thus this does not apply. I agree with Thaddeus' reasoning here PageantUpdater (talk) 03:11, 1 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• I'm going by this when envoking BIO1E:

• "When an individual is significant for his or her role in a single event, it may be unclear whether an article should be written about the individual, the event or both. In considering whether or not to create separate articles, the degree of significance of the event itself and the degree of significance of the individual's role within it should be considered. The general rule in many cases is to cover the event, not the person. However, if media coverage of both the event and the individual's role grow larger, separate articles may become justified."

Hence, Wikipedia maintains article on Miss Utah USA for example, while the winners, with some exceptions, tend to be non-notable individuals, per available sources. The coverage is also generally WP:ROUTINE, on the placing, etc. K.e.coffman (talk) 03:24, 1 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Further comment: while Miss Teen USA series may be notable; I'd argue that Miss Teen USA 2000 and so on are not well known and significant events; I live in the US, for example, and I've never heard of Miss USA, let alone Miss Teen USA. I was aware of Miss America though; but I did not know that there were several competing systems. I'm a sample of one, obviously, so take that with a grain of salt. K.e.coffman (talk) 06:45, 2 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

well they were able to attract 98 Degrees and Westlife to perform. I haven't searched for that so won't give you an estimate off the top of my head but 1987 has hundreds of news articles from all across the US --- PageantUpdater (talk) 23:17, 2 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep National titleholders in a competition where there are 50 real state competitions are probably notable. --GRuban (talk) 15:50, 2 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep per our standard for a national beauty competition winner being notable. CrispyGlover (talk) 22:02, 2 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: I don't believe that such presumption exists for Miss Teen USA; contestants are essentially child performers. K.e.coffman (talk) 07:05, 3 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep as per above Keep votes.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 21:30, 3 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete and redirect. WP:V and WP:RS go back to the beginning of time. We can't have an article - especially a biography - about a subject that has not been substantially covered in reliable independent sources; in this case there is no coverage of the subject, only the pageant. That invokes WP:BLP1E. I am concerned that people are misinterpreting a a guideline that says people are likely to be notable if they have won a major pageant, as meaning that are notable. On Wikipedia, notability comes form depth of sourcing, not from box-ticking. And what constitutes a major pageant is contentious: as far as the real world is concerned, only Miss World gets any serious mind share. Miss Teen America is $RANDOMPAGEANT as far as most people are concerned. Bring me sources that are about the subject and go beyond the pageant. Remember, Wikipedia is not a directory, of pageant winners or anything else. Hotties are not inherently notable. Guy (Help!) 15:19, 4 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment"hotties are not inherently notable" shows utterly disgusting bias and you clearly haven't read the article because the 1st, 3rd, 4th and 6th articles are specifically coverage of the subject not the pageant. I'm sorry if you don't have a subscription to Newspapers.com but it's otherwise difficult to research a subject whose notability came about 20 years ago. Also evidence you haven't read the article properly - it has nothing to do with Miss Teen America. --- PageantUpdater (talk) 15:28, 4 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment Katie Blair and Tami Farrell, Miss Teen USA titleholders from the 2000s, both recently passed AFD with no delete noms, source of their notability being Miss Teen USA in both cases. I don't see why this one should be any different, if anything the news coverage here was more significant. --- PageantUpdater (talk) 09:28, 5 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.