The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Lord Roem ~ (talk) 17:04, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Eleven City Diner (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

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Advertisement for non-notable restaurant. The NPR source is just an advertorial. DGG ( talk ) 04:17, 24 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I excluded sources from Chicago (Tribune, etc), in an attempt to show notability. Manny's Deli, which is notable, has many Chicago area sources and yet hasn't been nominated for deletion. If I add these sources I excluded, would that help make the notability case (sticking to top local publications). Eleven City Diner and Kaufman's (as well as Steingolds - but I didn't add an article for that one) have had a number of references in articles from publications from outside the Chicago area, and/or intended for a national audience.

I acknowledge that these other delis are not as notable as Mannys. But I attempt to make the case that they pass the notability test.

For example, if these articles are deleted, why is Kenny & Zuke's Delicatessen still not deleted. It has articles of similar quality and they are more of a local area nature than what I used here.

I have no connection to these businesses other than I live in the same city / metro area. Sblument (talk) 04:24, 24 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I added additional content and sources Sblument (talk) 19:53, 24 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Sblument: No reason to not include Chicagoland sources, of course having non-local sources can help show notability but local sources can often provide more detailed information. Skynxnex (talk) 14:58, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Food and drink, Business, and Illinois. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 10:07, 24 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 06:56, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep given the added sources and the continued coverage in sources, incl the Chicago area not included yet such as:

"Diner elevates usual soup-and-sandwich. By: Bianchi, Laura, Crain's Chicago Business, 01496956, 6/12/2006, Vol. 29, Issue 24": Open just a few months, Eleven City Diner already feels like an old-timer in the South Loop. ebsco.

How to Throw a Perfect Summer Picnic Never before have so many restaurants offered food to go. Here, a guide to what to pick up and what to pack it in, plus two easy recipes for dining al fresco. By Marian Bull PRINT EDITIONHow to; Putting On a Perfect Summer Picnic|July 25, 2021, Page ST3 (NYT)

A significant (more than ten paragraphs) feature in "Rewriting the rules. By: JENNINGS, LISA, Nation's Restaurant News, 00280518, 10/6/2014, Vol. 48, Issue 19" ebsco

Skynxnex (talk) 15:11, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I added all these references plus a few more Sblument (talk) 22:49, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. The new sources added passes GNG.`~HelpingWorld~` ^(👽🛸) 02:26, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete This is a company therefore WP:NCORP guidelines apply. Restaurants are a difficult topic because there's an entire industry build up around reviewing restaurants, from "influencers" to travel books, TV and Michelin stars which begs the question, how do we evaluate notability of restaurants. There is the section WP:RESTAURANTREVIEWS at NCORP which provides some pointers such as discounting brief and routine reviews (including Zagat), etc, but it still falls short of resolving many of the issues surrounding restaurant notability in general. There were a few attempts in the past (e,g, WP:REST) to write guidelines specifically for restaurants but none were adopted. So we're left with NCORP and we therefore require references that discuss the *company* in detail. WP:SIRS tells us that *each* reference must meet the criteria for establishing notability so we need at least two deep or significant sources containing "Independent Content" showing in-depth information *on the company*. "Independent content", in order to count towards establishing notability, must include original and independent opinion, analysis, investigation, and fact checking that are clearly attributable to a source unaffiliated to the subject. Here's my take on the sources against NCORP guidelines:
  • Nation's Restaurant News article is based on an interview with the owner so all the information has been provided by the owner/company. This fails ORGIND as there's no "Independent Content"
  • The Chicago Tribune is a mere two sentence mention about the deli in The Loop opening. It fails CORPDEPTH.
  • Chicago Business article is a run-of-the-mill review consisting of 9 sentences briefly describing the decor and the food. It is not significant and contains no in-depth information about the restaurant. Fails CORPDEPTH
  • The Jewish Times article is a mere single instance mention-in-passing, fails CORPDEPTH
  • The Nosher article is also a single sentence mention with not in-depth information on the company, fails CORPDEPTH
  • This in a magazine from the University of Washington is also a mere single sentence mention-in-passing, fails CORPDEPTH
  • There's a bunch of sources from eater.com - this is a puff piece written before the restaurant opened a location in LA and relies entirely on information provided by the owner/company and the journalist did not add sufficient "Independent Content", fails ORGIND. This next one is a "hidden history of root beer floats in Chicago" which includes profiles of restaurants that continue to sell beer floats. The topic company has a paragraph but again, all the information is provided by the owner/company, fails ORGIND. This next is a mention consisting of two sentences, fails CORPDEPTH. Finally, this announces the closure of the Lincoln Park location and is based on a announcement by the company on Facebook. It is not significant and there is insufficient detail to meet CORPDEPTH.
  • This from npr.org is a comedic description of eating a sandwich from the topic company. It contains no in-depth information about the company, fails CORPDEPTH
  • This from food network is a recipe, fails CORPDEPTH
  • This from NYTimes magazine has a couple of sentences mentioning the diner with no in-depth information about the company, fails CORPDEPTH

None of the sources meet NCORP criteria for establishing notability. HighKing⁺⁺ 15:04, 6 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

would the following articles pass this same test

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenny_%26_Zuke%27s_Delicatessen

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kornblatt%27s_Delicatessen

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brent%27s_Deli

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loeb%27s_NY_Deli Sblument (talk) 20:46, 6 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If there is some sort of project or way for us in the Wiki community to solve this problem - to come up with a general notability guideline for restaurants, I am willing to volunteer some time/effort. I understand the risks involved in not wanting Wiki to be a place to promote restaurants. But although there may not be an easy consensus rubric that will satisfy every case, perhaps Wikipedia could benefit from some kind of "floor" guidelines. I also bet there are many articles of restaurants that may or may not meet current notability standards.

Also, a confounding factor is that wiki has virtually unlimited space, so the standard should not be so harsh as it would be in a space limited encyclopedia. ~~ Sblument (talk) 23:43, 6 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Response Just be aware of WP:WHATABOUTX at AfD. If you believe there are topics here that aren't notable, feel free to nominate them for deletion. On the other hand, in my experience, there are editors who, at a fundamental level, don't like the idea of carving out different guidelines for different topics. For me, I've encountered a number of topic areas where the project might benefit from specific guidelines and Restaurants are one of them. Although to be fair from what I've seen of available sources, this Diner still would still fail the guidelines I have in mind. We would need a lot more than common or garden restaurant reviews and announcements of opening and closing branches. For example, if the restaurant was associated with a notable chef or if the restaurant won a prestigious annual award (as opposed to "Restaurant of the Week!) or awarded something from Michelin, etc. If you do decide to request/campaign for restaurant-specific guidelines, please ping me as I would also like to participate. HighKing⁺⁺ 12:00, 7 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Thanks I'll look into this more and decide if I want to request/campaign as you suggest. One thing in particular with Jewish delis - there could be an idea that these delis are notable for the Jewish community, whereas the most notable Jewish delis (in Chicago, Manny's, in New York, Katz's) that feel notable in general. Michelin doesn't give stars to delis of course, and I would guess that most Michelin 1 star restaurants (even those with notable chefs) do not have a wiki article. For example in Chicago, Beverly Kim has an article as a notable chef, but her restaurants don't, even Parachute which has had many years of 1 Michelin star. Sblument (talk) Sblument (talk) 21:17, 7 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I did some research and think there may or may not be a need for a notability guideline for restaurants. It looks like wikiproject food and drink would be a good place, maybe for an essay? I would be willing to write one that talks about notability for restaurants and bars. Sblument (talk) 19:41, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Just be aware that if there aren't any specific guidelines for Restaurants, they'll continue to fall under NCORP but Food and Drink is the best place to start a discussion for sure. HighKing⁺⁺ 13:52, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Extraordinary Writ (talk) 22:26, 7 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete Most of the references are passing mentions that basically function as advertisements for the establishment. The one lengthy one (Nation's, above) describes the restaurant and its offerings, which is rather like doing an article on a hardware store and saying: "It has nails, light bulbs, and a great variety of drill bits at a good price." Just saying that it is a restaurant and it serves food is rather the antithesis of notability. Also, I agree with HighKing that some better guidance for restaurants is needed for the exact reasons that they provide. Lamona (talk) 18:33, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per HighKing fails WP:GNG ,Most of the references are passing mentions.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 12:51, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - No WP:SIGCOV as refs are simple mentions. The ⬡ Bestagon ^T/_C 15:44, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.