The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect List of Crash Bandicoot characters#Coco Bandicoot. Consensus here appears to be that this secondary character lacks enough significant coverage to merit a separate article. The article remains available in the history if there is further verifiable information that should be merged. Sjakkalle (Check!) 18:27, 22 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Coco Bandicoot

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Coco Bandicoot (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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Subject lacks the significant coverage needed to justify notability; the article's reception section consists primarily of passing mentions and sources that don't pertain specifically to the subject's characterization, actor performance, and/or impact on popular culture. Cat's Tuxedo (talk) 17:16, 14 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisted after undoing a non-admin early closure per Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2022 May 15.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 06:47, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

https://gamerant.com/crash-bandicoot-n-sane-trilogy-coco-playable/ - An entire article about her and her playable role in Crash Bandicoot N. Sane Trilogy.
https://www.thegamer.com/coco-bandicoots-design-in-crash-bandicoot-on-the-run-burns-my-eyes/ - Another article devoted to her, much longer than the previous one. This discusses her design.
https://www.thegamer.com/crash-bandicoot-coco-awesome-fan-art/ - Yet another article devoted to her. While it lists fan art of her, the article also discusses her personality in the games.
https://www.ign.com/articles/2017/06/15/e3-2017-why-coco-is-playable-in-crash-bandicoot-n-sane-trilogy - This discusses why she is playable in Crash Bandicoot N. Sane Trilogy.
https://www.ign.com/articles/2002/04/26/crash-bandicoot-the-wrath-of-cortex-review - Well, okay, I didn't really add this one, since it was already in there prior to the initial merge. But for a review of a game, it goes a bit into Coco beyond a passing mention.
Yes, some of the sources are passing mentions, but not all of them are. There could be more out there too. If find any, I'll add them in here.
I can understand why the article was initially merge back in 2011. There was barely any sources discussing Coco back then. However, more have since popped up, thanks to her playable roles in Crash Bandicoot N. Sane Trilogy and Crash Bandicoot 4: It's About Time, addressing the very reason it was merged in the first place. This passes WP:GNG and WP:INU, which do not require "the subject's characterization, actor performance, and/or impact on popular culture" in reliable sources. The main purpose of INU is to avoid WP:PLOT articles, and Coco does that through the creation and reception sections. This goes beyond Wikia quality.
Besides, Coco is clearly an important character in the Crash Bandicoot series, pretty much being the deuteragonist. I think the reader would benefit from Coco having her own article more than being confined to a list with a bunch of less important characters, which goes more into detail than a list article could. MoonJet (talk) 08:21, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The first three sources are situational-bordering-on-unreliable, per WP:VG/S discussions. The first IGN article mentions her inclusion in the game and a little of how they worked her in, but says almost nothing about her character. The second IGN article features a single paragraph which basically says nothing but "Not as good as Crash". This is not significant in-depth coverage. This will be my only reply, as the long long long one-sided discussion at Amy Rose about very similar sources and passing mentions suggests that you won't change your stance. -- ferret (talk) 12:25, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The first three are listed as situational sources, yes, but keep in mind that I'm only citing them for opinion pieces, not facts. Furthermore, it says Game Rant is fine to cite at non-BLP articles and for things that are not controversial claims. And the first TheGamer source was published after August 2020. WP:VG/S says "News posts and original content after August 2020 are considered generally reliable." MoonJet (talk) 13:19, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
As you've been told in prior discussions, a combination of passing mentions and fringe churnalism sources isn't a convincing case for notability. It's quite frankly getting a bit disruptive that we keep having to have these conversations because you're so obviously setting the standards far below where the community generally does. Sergecross73 msg me Sergecross73 msg me 12:51, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Calling something "churmalism" just strikes me as WP:IDONTLIKEIT. You might consider them "churnalism," but others may not. If I'm setting the standards "far below where the community generally does," then maybe the problem is that the project is stricter than it should be. Never mind that fact the project literally states "Video game-related articles are considered notable by this project if they pass Wikipedia's general notability guidelines." on the project page. MoonJet (talk) 13:35, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
See also WP:VG/S description of TheGamer: News posts and original content after August 2020 are considered generally reliable. Several editorial staff have bylines highlighting their experience working with other reputable video game media outlets such as VG247. Content published prior to August 2020 should be handled with care, particularly listicles that have little news or reporting significance. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 13:58, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I already discussed this in reply to Ferret, but:
1. I am citing them for opinion pieces, not facts. See WP:RSOPINION.
2. One of the sources from TheGamer I cited in here was published after August 2020. MoonJet (talk) 14:06, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Youre cherry-picking words. Churnalism is mine. But descriptors like iffy/fringe/not the best - these are pretty generally accepted. If a "The Gamer" source with a headline of "Look at the fan art" is among your strongest evidence for GNG satisfying sourcing, you're reallllllly reaching. I'm just surprised you're trying this so quickly after the community came to a clear consensus that your Amy Rose article had insufficient sourcing for its own article. This is the same sort of thing.Sergecross73 msg me 14:10, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Does it really matter what the headline is? "Reaching?" No, I'm just gathering up some sources that discuss her that I've found, and TheGamer is acceptable for opinions, especially those posted after August 2020. Also consider the purpose behind GNG. If there's enough to write an article beyond a stub, it is presumably notable.
I know about the Amy Rose thing, but I was hoping to get a different result for Coco Bandicoot, really.
I plan to have another discussion on Amy Rose, by the way, as I've since found more sourcing for her since that consensus. MoonJet (talk) 14:45, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Just to be clear, this is your response when both the Amy Rose and this discussion (so far) are unanimously against you? You're going to get yourself into WP:IDHT trouble acting like this. Sergecross73 msg me 14:52, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment- can we try to focus this discussion on Coco Bandicoot and not User:MoonJet or the potential of an Amy Rose article? (Oinkers42) (talk) 20:19, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
What I'm saying applies to here at this AFD all the same. Sergecross73 msg me 21:33, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Prominent, sure; important, no. As far as gameplay goes, you could remove her playability outright and nothing would fundamentally change, and the games' marketing campaigns have clearly felt no need to prop her up to Crash's level. The series' central antagonist Cortex teaming up with Crash for one game was the primary marketing point of Crash Twinsanity, thus prodding reviewers toward analyzing Cortex as a character, but could the same ever have been said for Coco? As it stands, she's borderline window dressing presented only as an option for players who desperately need a playable character of the opposite sex, despite its lack of effect. And even then, she's not engaging enough as a personality for reviewers to devote the same kind of commentary they did to Cortex in Twinsanity. The games are not called Crash and Coco or Super Bandicoot Sibs, she's certainly not getting a headlining game any time soon, and fans aren't crazy enough about her to make so much as a ripple, so if she's not so essential, why would anyone pay any mind? Cat's Tuxedo (talk) 14:59, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
If any of you have full access to this, please let me know. MoonJet (talk) 20:30, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Just going by the headline, it looks like it's about female gamers and gaming culture as a whole, not specifically about the character. Access or no, this still doesn't advance your case. Cat's Tuxedo (talk) 21:19, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It doesn't need to be "specifically" about the character, just that its significant coverage. (WP:GNG explicitly states "Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention, but it does not need to be the main topic of the source material.) But either way, I don't have access to that to tell if it is or not. MoonJet (talk) 04:55, 16 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I've read the study. Coco has less than two sentences of mention, in context of a child developer who wanted to use Coco as a playable character in her own Crash game (I.e. doing what later happened). The character itself is not discussed or even described beyond "appears in cutscenes". -- ferret (talk) 14:56, 16 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Atsme:True, notability is not inherented. But you don't you think the NYM Gamer, TheGamer (which there's two of) and GameRant sources add up the minimal notability guidelines? Altogether, that's at least four sources of significant coverage (arguably more than that), more than the recommended mininum of three sources. Well, in Wikipedia's terms, non-trivial. Short doesn't necessarily equal trivial, as this page says. We should also consider why notability is a thing. I would argue there's easily enough here to write an encyclopedic article beyond a stub. MoonJet (talk) 20:20, 21 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
MJ - NYM Gamer began as a blog, but their "About" section states: In 2015, we began planning a careful shift to a peer-reviewed middle-state publication offering a dedicated space to feminist games studies. Then when you read Editors and Staff, we're not talking about a peer reviewed scientific journal, ok? You might say it's a bit of an advocacy or maybe not - either way, it's not quite what they paint themselves to be. Now look at The Gamer - editor-in-chief Stacey Henley is arguably famous but fame is not the same thing as notability. What are her encyclopedic/academic credentials? She appears to be an advocate for women's rights - we could certainly use her talents on WP - but does the editorial staff at The Gamer really qualify as experts for inclusion of academic/encyclopedic content relative to the study of feminism? The sources are not exactly what WP would consider scientific, academic in the same light as high quality WP:MEDRS. I shudder to think WP is going to be the home of every game character that's trending now because they were mentioned or written about in those 4 sources - which of course have their own agendas relative to the gaming industry; consider WP:NTEMP. I have no doubt that the editorial staff does their best to maintain credibility despite using outlets like Reddit, Twitter, YouTube, etc in their pool of sources. To keep things in perspective, we're talking about video games; technology comes and goes with the wind. Where does their money come from? Are they truly independent? I think those are questions that need closer study. Atsme 💬 📧 21:22, 21 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Well, current consensus at WP:VG/RS is that TheGamer is reliable; though content posted before August 2020 is to be approached with caution. I mean, there's so many characters that do not have an article. Looking at the Crash series, the only other characters with articles are Crash himself and Dr. Cortex. It certainly wouldn't hurt for Coco to have one too.
Also, keep in mind I'm not citing TheGamer as academic source. It's NYM Gamer I'm citing as an academic source. MoonJet (talk) 23:53, 21 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I have to correct you there. NYM Gamer is a website run by an editorial board, with some of its members being published academics (e.g. Mia Consalvo and Adrienne Shaw) or professional critics (Yussef Cole). The article you cited is a blog-style article, which is essentially on the same tier as typical features published by Kotaku and Polygon. It clearly has been through an editorial process, but it is not an academic source just because the editors in question may be academics. The actual academic journal itself is here, of which only two issues have been published at the time of writing. Haleth (talk) 09:57, 22 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, I was pinged, and it does not move the needle for me either. I still fully advocate Redirecting and covering the character on the main character list for the series. Rorshacma (talk) 15:36, 21 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I was under the assumption certain editors were watching this discussion as it was. It seems Cat's Tuxedo and Ferret has anyway. I must note that I wasn't for sure whether it would needle Sergecross' stance or not. Though, to be fair, maybe I should have pinged everyone in here.
Also, I don't know if this is reliable (though, they seem to be affiliated with Siliconera and Destructoid) but this source lists Coco among the 10 "great" female characters in video games: https://www.pcinvasion.com/10-great-female-video-game-characters/
They give explanation, and comments on her levels in Crash 3: Warped and the politicism around her. On its own, I agree that it wouldn't establish notability for her, but I do think it establishes notability for her even more so with the NYM Gamer, TheGamer and GameRant sources than without that source. After all, we must also consider the principles on why notability is a thing, like I said above. MoonJet (talk) 20:03, 21 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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