The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Consensus is that the original research present in the article is a surmountable problem. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 23:42, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Apes and pigs in Islam

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delete the article is not about real pigs and apes in islam .the article is also a mix of different things. Melaen (talk) 19:17, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Please explain...Historianism (talk) 17:13, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Let's not be fooled by the references: this is not an article but a semi-coherent rant against a certain brand of Islam. Pichpich (talk) 19:27, 18 September 2010 (UTC) What's wrong with the PBS and other RS sources?Historianism (talk) 17:13, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Delete as essay. Roscelese (talk) 21:47, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per Pichpich. Shiva (Visnu) 23:32, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep The facts are noted not only in history, such as in Spain, but at present conflicts such as embedded in Hamas and in Hezbollah propaganda, especially the uproar in England in the Saudi school addas to notoriety, actuality.Nazarethian (talk) 02:07, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep This seems quite a notable bit of scripture, covered in sources such as The legacy of Islamic antisemitism. Colonel Warden (talk) 10:37, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The useful information here can be incorporated into Islam and anti-Semitism - it can also be argued that this is duplicating that article's purpose. Shiva (Visnu) 15:13, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Not really, It's also about Christians, where does anti-Semitism fit in here?

Apes and pigs doctrine upon Christians

1) From Dhimmis and others: Jews and Christians and the world of classical Islam' Mesopotamian Civilizations, 10 Authors Ûrî Rûbîn, David J. Wasserstein - Page 89: (Ûrî Rûbîn, David J. Wasserstein - EISENBRAUNS, 1997, ISBN 1575060264, 9781575060262)

APES, PIGS, AND THE ISLAMIC IDENTITY Uri Rubin That Jews and Christians were once transformed into apes and pigs by way of punishment, is a well-known Islamic idea. It is based on the Quran and is elaborated in Islamic literature [1]

2) Islam and Dhimmitude: where civilizations collide - Page 464 Bat Yeʼor, Miriam Kochan (Fairleigh Dickinson Univ Press, 2002 ISBN 0838639437, 9780838639436)

The reference to monkeys (apes) and pigs relates to Jews and Christians

3) Arab dress: a short history : from the dawn of Islam to modern times - Page 105 Yedida Kalfon Stillman, Norman A. Stillman (BRILL, 2003 ISBN 9004135936, 9789004135932)

The patch for Jews had the image of an ape and the patch for Christians the image of pig...

4) Jews of Islam - Page 33 Bernard Lewis - 2002

The conventional epithets are apes for Jews and pigs for Christians

[2]

5) Journeys Into the Heart and Heartland of Islam - Page 279 Marvin W. Heyboer (Dorrance Publishing, 2009 ISBN 1434901882, 9781434901880)

To Islam they were and are the worst of creatures. In the Muslim culture they are animals, “apes and swine.” Christian women cannot ride public transport without risking insults from adult Muslim males, who call them “whores” [3]

School's books are racist, says sacked teacher | UK news | The Guardian
Feb 6, 2007 ... A Saudi-run school in London uses textbooks which describe Jews as monkeys and Christians as pigs...

[4]

A former teacher at a Muslim school in London says textbooks there describe Jews as "repugnant" and "apes," and refer to Christians as "pigs ... [5]

keep By all means!!! No case or argument for deleting, the notoriety is obvious, including on sites such as: PBS, CNN, The Guardian and history books such as by historian Bernard Lewis and others.

(See above quotes upon Christians as pigs, not only apes about Jews).Historianism (talk) 17:13, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Then would it not be more advisable to reorganize this article as Racial and religious discrimination in Islam? The data can surely also be incorporated into Islam and antisemitism, Dhimmi/Dhimmitude, Christianity and Islam, Islam and Judaism, etc. I don't get the point of having "Apes and pigs in Islam", if the actual aim is an article that is supposed to tackle discrimination issues. Shiva (Visnu) 17:39, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Islam-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 18:39, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

keep per historianism, To: s h i v a!

It deserves a page by itself, it is a concept in and of itself.Ip101 (talk) 20:54, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think that one would need to prove that apes/pigs are a substantial part of the discourse around Jews and Christians. For that, secondary sources about that discourse - not just about specific incidents - would be necessary. Roscelese (talk) 21:48, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The link [6] says just that is a well-known Islamic idea. It is based on the Quran and is elaborated in Islamic literature cited above by historianism.Ip101 (talk) 16:46, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. There's some crap in the article, which should be fixed via the usual editorial process. But the topic is real and notable, as the cources cited in the article show. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 01:20, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, formally, this is no different from figs in the Bible. Big informal difference of course. But a clear theological subcategory that, with semiprotection maybe, would be a useful article. JJB 08:06, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.