The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. W.marsh 17:21, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Andretti Curse (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

Original research. None of the sources talk about the actual topic of a curse. JLaTondre 02:29, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Based upon's Barno's sources (see below), I now think this could be re-written into a legitimate article. It does need a complete re-write to be based upon sources instead of the current OR. I still question the notability, but I won't argue that point. -- JLaTondre 19:10, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete per nom. The Andrettis haven't won the Indy 500 as often as the writer believes they should have. I guess they don't make curses like they used to. Keep. The newspapers have picked up on it, so I guess it's marginally notable. Clarityfiend 02:48, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. Fails WP:OR. -- MarcoTolo 03:49, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

*Delete as original research. What curse? Ford MF 04:00, 2 June 2007 (UTC) Conditional keep as well, based on the new refs. If the editor integrates the sources listed below and cleans and trims the article, I think it will be sufficient. Ford MF 03:40, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep potential source is Here. Also, I've heard this term used alot, similar to the curse of the bambino Black Harry 04:18, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• "Potential source" as a single posting on a message board? I don't think so. Delete as unreferenced cursecruft. Deor 05:31, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, a google search turns up 44000 hits. Black Harry 17:06, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, it turns up only 649[1]. Searching without the quotes returns many pages that are unrelated to this term. -- JLaTondre 20:55, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry about that, I don't generally use quotes when I do google searches. BH (Talk) 21:21, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete "potential source" is inappropriate, as is the topic. /Blaxthos 16:53, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Conditional keep -- If mainstream media beyond tabloids (cnn, sun herald, etc.) are at least referring to this alleged curse, I would say the concept of the curse is widespread enough to pass notability. Obviously, this is an unscientific concept (and thus can't be proven and is complete fiction, IMHO), so the article needs to be significantly trimmed (read: a lot shorter) and be written from a neutral point of view. Most importantly, it needs to be confined only to what is contained in reliable sources. Clean it up.  ;-) /Blaxthos 02:08, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete but put any usable info in the articles of each person. Nunquam Dormio 17:46, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete A largely OR expansion of a theory (if that's the right word) that is common knowledge in motor racing circles, but not generally written about in a non-trivial manner. Yes, Michael Andretti has never won the 500 in x attempts, but this is covered in his and the other Andretti articles. Adrian M. H. 18:09, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Deletechanged below. The theory is common knowledge in the racing world. Black Harry draws a good comparison to the Curse of the Bambino. I believe that this article could easily be sourced with reliable sources. I don't see why this theory needs to have an article at this time. I will mention this AFD at WikiProject American Open Wheel Racing. Everyone, please refrain from using the insulting "cruft" term as what is cruft to you is probably gold to someone else. Royalbroil 05:20, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sounds like a keep to me. Also should be noted that I'm not a racing fan at all, but I've still heard about this topic. BH (Talk) 05:34, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Change to Keep based on the length of the Curse of the Bambino article. The Andretti curse is the most notable curse in auto racing (in my opinion). For background, I have been urging contributors (including Barno) to help me get the Mario Andretti article up to "Good Article" status. The curse didn't fit well into Mario's article, and a separate article on the curse seems like a better way to deal with the topic, especially since it involves the whole Andretti family. "Mario is slowing down!" still rings in my ears. Royalbroil 04:05, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • There are several articles that should link to this article if it is kept, including several Indy 500 articles, Mario Andretti, Michael Andretti, Jeff Andretti, Marco Andretti and possibly John Andretti. Royalbroil 01:51, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep or, failing that, merge to Mario Andretti, as most publications of this topic focus primarily on him and secondarily on his family. Several references are cited in the article so far (either focusing on this point or mentioning it as more than a passing note), and dozens more books and magazine articles can be found that give it significant coverage. Volume of Google hits isn't a meaningful indicator or notability, but the quality of many of those hits shows it to be widely noted. Barno 17:35, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete, although it would make an interesting newspaper article, my comment for this is, isn't calling the fortunes of the Andretti families cursed rather POV heavy, as for the fact driver's misfortunes is part of the package in motorsport, witness those who have been competing for years and never seen one single podium finish. Also I don't like the fact this article attempts to say because the rest of the family failing live up to Mario, they are cursed, even in this modern era of tight schedules and watertight contracts which prohibits drivers competing in other series other than the one they are contracted to, its like calling Vanina Ickx cursed because she has not won one single Le Mans 24 hours race unlike the six won by her famous dad, Damon Hill who has only won one F1 title and not three, as well as either the Indy 500 or Le Mans unlike Graham or Kyle Petty because he didn't win one single Winston Cup titles, let alone seven of his father, as well as a long list of racing offsprings who can't live up the name of their famous father. In all this article expects too much out of the Andrettis. Also isn't Marco very much too newish to have this cursed tag written on him. Willirennen 18:21, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

After giving it a thought, I would like to retract my nomination for the fact I have never been familiar with this sporting curse thing, as well as, purely this nomination was made by a non-American, I do understand that this would be an American thing, witnessing the Curse of the Bambino. Willirennen 21:53, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• New sources: Here are some reliable sources, not cited in the article at this time, which feature (not merely mention as a trivium) the Andretti curse by that name: Chicago Tribune article [2]; Cincinnati Enquirer article [3]; CNNSI.com [4];South Florida Sun-Sentinel [5]; Newton Daily News [6]. This should be sufficient to refute the claims of "original research" and "sources don't support the topic". Previous !voters should review and reconsider, please. Also, some comments have said (perhaps reading only the article's first paragraph which doesn't make the point, or reading the full article which needs to make it more clearly) that merely "not winning" is unremarkable. In fact, several of these Indy 500s were lost when Mario was leading in the final laps and a small part broke, and Marco lost the lead on the final straightaway. Many of these were with cars and teams so good that experts gave Mario a 20% chance of winning (when three percent would be expected in a 33-car starting field). This is the most noted "curse" or "repeated heartbreak" in motorsports, far more notable than, for example, "Mark Martin drove for Roush for umpteen years without quite winning a NEXTEL Cup championship." Barno 00:08, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Okay, with these new refs, I think the entry is redeemable - but it needs some significant work to remove OR and POV problems in addition to legitimate citation and general cleanup issues. Changing recommendation to a cautious keep. -- MarcoTolo 00:25, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• I agree that editing is needed for these reasons and to clarify the basic premise. If kept, I will work with the article's creator Afterburner33 and with Royalbroil (who is working on Andretti articles) to address these concerns. Barno 00:36, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. The true nature of the concept is loss of Indianapolis 500 races that the multiple Andrettis in question "by rights should have won." Given that that identifies a rather large quantity of possible theorizations, the "actual examples" would be leading an excess of 85% of all laps the given Andretti ran in whatever year, before retiring with 50 or less miles remaining (1987, Mario; 1992, Michael), retiring from a 500 while leading (1989, 1995 and 2003, Michael in all three cases), having the race briefly be given to you by official decision but later having it taken back (the special, and "dirty," 1981 situation, Mario), or being passed for the lead and ostensibly win in the latter stages of the event (1985 and 1993, Mario; 1991, Michael; final straightaway, 2006, Marco). Such moments are in turn similar to what happened to Earnhardt at Daytona in the 1990s. As soon as an Andretti actually wins in such fashion instead of loses, the information should be merged into the articles on the drivers themselves, and this article dissolved. --Chr.K. 04:35, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Merge into an Andretti racing family article, or the Indy 500 article. 132.205.44.134 23:12, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• I object to merging this into the Indy 500 article because I think that curses, rivalries, etc. should not be placed in the article about a race. What precedents are there for racing family articles? Royalbroil 03:21, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• There aren't all that many racing families that I can think of... so if you look at instead the profession-family article, and there are several for politics. ...Racing families... Brabham (size: 3 people)? Unser (3)? Petty (4)? Villeneuve (3)? Allison (3)? (assuming size greater than 2) 132.205.44.134 21:29, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• I am impressed with your knowledge about racing. I can think of several more racing families, but that's not my point. I don't know any racing families that have a family article (besides some grouped as a family on disambiguation pages). I remember seeing discussions on XfDs where family categories and articles were deleted. Some of these discussions were about racing families such as the Wallaces and Earnhardts in NASCAR. Royalbroil 01:51, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep, but don't merge it to Indy 500 as that curse could possibly extend to the 24 Hours of Le Mans which is worth mentioning, between his comeback attempt in 1995which , which he achieved 2nd place to his final attempt in 2000, Mario failed to achieve his dream of winning the race and also that infamous 1982 DNS by him and Michael which I have the source article and will add on soon, thats if you don't mind having this article to stray away from being Indy-centric. Willirennen 00:55, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have only heard the Andretti curse applied to Indy, but it is possible that it may have been extended to his futility at Le Mans. Mario raced several years at Le Mans after his retirement in an attempt to put a win at another major race on his resume. Use your best judgement. Royalbroil 01:51, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.