Origins

Since neither the papaya nor chillies existed in Southeast Asia before the Columbian Exchange, the dish is quite obviously of relatively recent origin. This column from Matichon, adapted from this book, covers the topic. It suggests that although tam som had existed for a long time, using ingredients such as mango and cucumbers, som tam made with papaya likely originated around the Early Rattanakosin period among native Chinese-Lao living near Bangkok. It would only later spread to Isan following the development of rail and road networks. --Paul_012 (talk) 18:02, 28 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Green papaya salad. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template ((source check)) (last update: 5 June 2024).

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 14:01, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

worst sentence with lots of information

I would like to nominate the following as the worst sentence with lots of information in Wikipedia: Thailand being one of the entry points where the Europeans have traded and where the papaya was introduced to mainland Southeast Asia have led historian Sujit Wongthes, to speculate wrongly that the variant of tam som using papaya as the main ingredient probably originated in the communities of ethnic Chinese–Lao settlers living in the Chao Phraya plains of what is now Central Thailand—where it became known as som tam—during the early Rattanakosin period (late 18th to early 19th centuries). --142.163.194.156 (talk) 14:30, 19 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Would it be at all possible if you could propose how to fix this sentence then? I mean, are you aware that talkpages are for discussing how to improve their corresponding articles, and are WP:NOTAFORUM?--Mr Fink (talk) 15:13, 19 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
As in the below section, I note that this jumbled mess is a result of POV-pushing edits trying to contradict sourced narratives which don't agree with some editor's POV. --Paul_012 (talk) 22:59, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

pls fix this page there is no proof that som tam is original in laos.

wow i smell laotian nationalist in this page
Place of origin Laos, Northeastern Thailand (Isan)
Originating from ethnic Lao people
The green papaya salad was adapted from an ethnic Lao

However, earliest historical records show that by mid-1500s, the Europeans were already exploring and trading with mainland Southeast Asia reaching as far as Vientiane and Luang Prabang, Laos. Some of the more notable Europeans who had travelled as far as Vientiane and Luang Prabang or wrote extensively about their experiences were Fernão Mendes Pinto (1542–1545),[6] Diogo Veloso and Blas Ruiz (1596), Geebard van Wusthof (1641),[7] Giovanni Filippo de Marini (1642–1648),[8] Jean-Baptiste Pallegoix (1830) and Henri Mouhot (1861). By the time Jean-Baptiste Pallegoix arrived as missionary to Bangkok; the papaya and chilli peppers was already fully integrated in the Lao territory and the Southeast Asian food culture as a whole.[9][10][11][12][13] Even Henri Mouhot (15 May 1826 – 10 November 1861), the French explorer and "discoverer" of Angkor Wat, during his trip to Luang Prabang, Laos also noted that the Laotians absolutely adores chili peppers.

According to cultural anthropologist Penny Van Esterik, during the 50s and 60s, green papaya salad was rarely known among the Central Thais and could only be found where there are small gatherings of Lao or Northeasterners:

In the 1950s and 1960s glutinous rice, roast chicken, larb, somtam (papaya salad), and other Lao favorites were available in Bangkok only around the boxing stadium where northeastern boxers and fans gathered to eat and drink before and after boxing matches. Lao food could also be found outside construction sites in mobile food carts providing construction workers from the northeast with their regional foods and beside gas stations serving long-distance bus drivers.

At the conclusion of the Vietnam War, between 1975 and 1995, it was estimated that approximately 200,000 Lao refugees crossed the Mekong River into Thailand. Most stayed in the refugee camps while other moved to Bangkok looking for work.

With the opening of the Mittraphap Road and the northeastern railway connecting central Thailand to her northern provinces not only brought jobs and development to the region. It also created a gateway for one of Thailand's biggest inter-regional migration during the economic boom of the 1980s as demands for labour increased. It was estimated that between 1980-1990 approximately 1.1 million northeasterners had moved from the Northeast to central Thailand and Bangkok. This, in turn, helped popularize and create an unprecedented demand for Lao food outside of Laos and the Northeast.

Van Esterik also noted that, "[i]n attempting to include northeastern food in a standardized national cuisine, middle-class Bangkok selected and modified the taste of a few dishes—grilled chicken, somtam, larb—by reducing the chili peppers and increasing the sugar, and ignored other dishes such as fermented fish and insects." According professor Sirijit Sunanta[20] these dishes were then represented as "Thai food" when presented to the world.'''

no proof that som tam is original in laos at all.
som tam is a thai word not isaan or laos wikt:ส้มตำ, isaan and laos called papaya Maak hoong ໝາກຫຸ່ງ (หมากหุ่ง), bak hoong (บักหุ่ง) wikt:บักหุ่ง, and Hoong ຫຸ່ງ (หุ่ง) derived from khmer lhong ល្ហុង (ลฺหุง) wikt:ល្ហុង Lalalulilalia (talk) 19:12, 6 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
khao man som tam (original sour dish)
som tam (original sour dish)
som tam pu
som tam pu pla ra
is original in thai https://www.silpa-mag.com/culture/article_5140 "traditional recipe"
https://www.sentangsedtee.com/featured/article_17702 (pls use google translate) "Som tam It was first introduced in central Thailand, then spread to Isaan. Isaan then swap word to tam som. laos call it tam maak hoong"
https://www.facebook.com/ThaiToYou/videos/3239402739431176
Papaya is already exists since Ayutthaya period not Rattanakosin https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo2/A48403.0001.001/1:11.9?rgn=div2;view=fulltext Thus the Melons of Siam are not true Melons, but the Fruit of a Tree known in the Isles of America under the name of Papayer
https://www.the101.world/southern-papaya-salad/ In 1990, Bernard Maloney excavated an ancient pond in the Ayutthaya period palace and found old papaya pollen in it. (google translate) ในปี ค.ศ. 1990 นาย Bernard Maloney ได้ขุดค้นโบราณสถานสระน้ำในพระราชวังสมัยกรุงศรีอยุธยาและได้พบเกสรของมะละกอเก่าแก่อยู่ในสระนั้น อาจารย์จึงสรุปว่า มะละกอน่าจะเข้ามาตั้งแต่สมัยกรุงศรีอยุธยาแล้ว
http://www.oocities.org/thai_archaeology/seasia/10/research11.html http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:0uB8kLJPFFoJ:www.oocities.org/thai_archaeology/seasia/10/research11.html+&cd=1&hl=th&ct=clnk&gl=th The other interesting types are the American elements: Annona and Carica papaya. The Carica papaya pollen is present in one sample from the lower level of both cores.
you can separate into som tam and tam maak hoong stop this nationalist bs. also laos people try to claim Tom yum, this need to be stopped immediately https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tom_yum&diff=prev&oldid=871880777 Lalalulilalia (talk) 18:09, 15 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This article has indeed been subject to nationalistic POV-pushing edits, especially to the history section, where irrelevant material has been inserted in attempts to contradict certain narratives. It now needs to be entirely rewritten, and I have tagged it as such. That said, splitting the article is not the way to go, as that would constitute a WP:POVFORK. It actually previously existed as separate articles, which were merged for that reason. --Paul_012 (talk) 22:57, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Paul 012 I agree, this needs a complete rewrite. —valereee (talk) 14:57, 8 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

nav break

@Lalalulilalia, what would be really helpful would be articles directly about the controversy over the origins in extremely reliable sources -- preferably recent scholarship or a major newspaper or major magazine.
  • What does the linguistics have to do with anything?
  • https://www.silpa-mag.com/culture/article_5140 Silpa-Mag looks pretty good, is that Art & Culture? We can use that, although as it's a Thai publication and this is a nationalism issue, we'll have to use it very carefully and find Laotian sources, too.
  • The c.1700 source just shows that there were papayas in Thailand, proves nothing about this dish
  • https://www.the101.world/southern-papaya-salad/ The101.World, what is that? Another Thai source for sure, but is it reliable?
  • The oocities source...that just looks like a report that again says there were papayas in Thailand? What does that prove about the origins of the dish?'
—valereee (talk) 15:29, 8 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Valereee:
what would be really helpful would be articles directly about the controversy over the origins in extremely reliable sources -- preferably recent scholarship or a major newspaper or major magazine.
sorry but it hard to find extremely reliable sources in english or in thai, only recently is about papaya (in thai language) https://www.ageconstory.com/2019/07/15/history-of-papaya/ "History of papaya" wrote by Dr. Sukkumnoed, Decharu, phd. https://research.ku.ac.th/forest/Person.aspx?id=400341. he said Spain is an importer of papaya to Southeast Asia, but other source claim Portugal is the leading papaya plant in Asia. Starting to grow in Malacca Before being planted in India And expand to other parts of Asia (google translate) สเปนเป็นผู้นำมะละกอเข้ามาเอเชียตะวันออกเฉียงใต้ แต่เอกสารอื่นๆ รายงานว่า โปรตุเกสเป็นผู้นำมะละกอเข้ามาปลูกในเอเชีย โดยเริ่มปลูกที่มะละกา ก่อนที่จะนำไปปลูกที่อินเดีย และขยายไปยังส่วนอื่นๆ ของเอเชีย
What does the linguistics have to do with anything?
evidence that papaya came to southern laos from khmer, just like papaya came to thailand from Malacca, we called papaya "malako".
The c.1700 source just shows that there were papayas in Thailand, proves nothing about this dish
but main ingredients is papaya, and papaya is not native to southeast asian, the dish som tam is sour and little spicy, but Tam maak hoong is spicy version of som tam. Laotian try to claim that bangkok is the one who swap word between Tam som to Som tam when Som tam and Tam som is really mean sour dish (sour pounding), but why Tam maak hoong is not sour only spicy? The traditional dish called Khao man som tam is similar to Som tam but eat with Coconut rice https://www.silpa-mag.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/3-6.jpg
https://www.the101.world/southern-papaya-salad/ The101.World, what is that? Another Thai source for sure, but is it reliable?
i don't know but it said southern thailand and myanmar have it own papaya salad and don't think it came from bangkok or isaan region. this article research in myanmar and ranong. Lo Ko Yok (ลอกอยอก, Lo Ko is short from of Papaya in southern thai language, Yok mean pound in southern thai language) https://www.google.com/search?q=%E0%B8%A5%E0%B8%AD%E0%B8%81%E0%B8%AD%E0%B8%A2%E0%B8%AD%E0%B8%81&sxsrf=ALeKk02BJcdhWD6U7fvm-aH6nYk1kTrF9A:1615078274425&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiYjNO2-5zvAhXYxDgGHZNwAZEQ_AUoAXoECA8QAw&biw=1920&bih=937#imgrc=5y_YZwF5axBUIM and Myanmar "သင်္ဘောသီးသုပ် Thinbaw thi thoke ติงบอตีโตะป์" mean papaya salad. maybe we can have pace of origin to be Mainland Southeast Asia, this is common culture like Cendol. but need to move page to only Papaya salad because it's not unriped (Green) papaya.
https://www.silpa-mag.com/culture/article_5140 Silpa-Mag looks pretty good, is that Art & Culture? We can use that, although as it's a Thai publication and this is a nationalism issue, we'll have to use it very carefully and find Laotian sources, too.
i don't think silpa is nationalist source because it's said the dish came from chinese-lao in bangkok (said by chinese-lao Sujit Wongthes). silpa mag and this website https://www.sentangsedtee.com/featured/article_17702 belonging to the Matichon group
we'll have to use it very carefully and find Laotian sources, too.
i don't know about laotian sources but lao-isaan in facebook comment claim that "tam som maak hoong" is mention in lao literature. and he claim that laotian eat tam som maak hoong even before Simon de la Loubère visit siam วรรณคดีชาดกลาวเรื่องเสียวสวาดระบุถึง "ตำส้มหมากหุ่ง" พร้อมกับปลาแดกต่วงและซุบหมากมี่ ทั้งระบุถึง "เลน" คำว่าเลนส์พบหลักฐานอย่างน้อยสมัยพระยาสุริยวงศาธรรมิกราชมหาราช ตรงกับสมัยพระนารายณ์ เป็นวัตถุที่วัน วูสตอฟถวายเจ้าอาวาสวัดพระธาตุพนม คนลาวรู้จักกินตำหมากหุ่งก่อนสมัยลาลูแบร์ และเรียกหมากหุ่งมาแต่ไหนแต่ไร หมากหุ่งไม่ใช่พืชท้องถิ่น ดูจากภาษาเพราะหมากหุ่งไม่มีชื่อเฉพาะของตัวเอง บ้างจัดเป็นพวกละหุ่ง (หมากหุ่งกินหน่วย), แตง (หมากแตงต้น), มะระ (หมากละกอ), กล้วย (หมากก้วยเทบ) ฯลฯ https://www.facebook.com/notes/644930442881739/?comment_id=2173944942697445 this is the literature that he claim http://www.sure.su.ac.th/xmlui/handle/123456789/1854?locale-attribute=th founded in Surin province near Khmer, this is pdf file http://www.sure.su.ac.th/xmlui/bitstream/handle/123456789/1854/fulltext.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y i don't read it yet, and i don't want to read it, because it gonna take long 294 pages. Lalalulilalia (talk) 01:13, 9 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Costume

Hey, @Isan1985, let's discuss. This seems like trivia to me. Why are we even mentioning this, much less in the lead? Valereee (talk) 19:48, 14 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, it seems rather random and definitely much less notable than the salad being listed on CNN Go regardless of how subjective ranking foods may be. –Turaids (talk) 20:43, 14 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Trivia or not, it is utterly irrelevant for the lead. Removed again. Maybe add a cultural references section if there's enough to be said. --Paul_012 (talk) 11:15, 15 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
PS Removing the "most delicious foods" from the lead and properly adding mention in the article body wouldn't be a bad idea either. --Paul_012 (talk) 11:34, 15 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hey everyone,

"The costume was designed by Saykeo Sittavong of Laos, who said of the piece, “Tammakhoung (Papaya Salad) is our national dish. It is sweet and sour, spicy and salty and it’s what first comes to mind when we talk about Lao food.”" (from the Laotian Times article).

I included that bit about the costume because they (the Lao) believed it to be important to their culture so much that they made a young girl, representing their country, wear a ridiculous papermache costume on international stage. And it is in the lead because the CNN GO (which favour a particular country over the other) is also the lead. It is not random and you don't get to determine what is more notable or important. To me, this is way more significance than CNN GO staffs picking their favourite food or from FB polls (@Valereee why didn't you delete that triva?).

If you guys want to move both trivas down to another section, then lets do it.

I believed the more information the better. I have no problem with making this article fair and balanced. Hence why I am telling/adding the Lao side to this article (I don't need to go into Thaification of Isan, my family is originally from Isan). You will not find me deleting anyone elses edits (unless it is vandalism), even when the source or information is of the fringe. I only try to expand and provide historical contexts as counter (see my edits/addition/responses to @Paul_012's Sujit's claims before it got vampirerized (Sujit has always been consider a fringed character and he is shunned by the Thais, other Thai historians, academics and medias. @Paul_012 Sujit speculated "that papaya salad PROBABLY came from...", provided no evidence, also a claim that only he made no one else does. Why is the current version of this article now treating Sujit's claim as authoritative/credible?) Sujit also claim that modern Thai people are actually Lao people mixed with Chinese. How many Thais, Thai historians, academia and medias pushing his main thesis and area of expertise as authoritative and credible?). @Turaid also for some reason, accused me of being bias (I am just reading through all the talks topics now. Dang dude, have you seen the earlier version of this article before I started editing?). Dude, the majority edits on here seem to favour Thailand. I only started editing (for fun) because I see the Lao/Laos contributions are being drown out by malicious edits, reversion and erased. Let's talk! Isan1985 (talk) 23:36, 16 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Categories