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This article states that Tuone Udaina, the last known speaker of the Dalmatian language, died at age 77. The Tuone Udaina page here on Wikipedia states he was 74. Which is correct? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.237.61.10 (talk) 17:34, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
I had edited the intro to the original text to reflect the current place names (Rab, Krk, Zadar, Dubrovnik, Kotor). User Bogdangiusca reverted back to Italian-names only appearing in the English text.
This I feel unjustified. In international usage current official place names should be used, while names as they appear in other languages can be added as an alternative, in parenthesis etc. There is no politics in this - just plain fact. So I feel that at least an alteration (eg. Krk/Veglia or Veglia/Krk, I wouldn't split hairs) is the only justified style and suggest the text be reverted. Hrundi 07:31, 13 December 2005
The Croatian/Serbian language is sometimes referred to as "Dalmatian" in modern usage, however this is a mingling of terminology, and the two languages are not closely related. --203.109.254.40
It is interesting to note that Dalmation kept the Latin words connected to the urban life which were lost in Romanian.
I don't understand this sentence - can anyone explain, please? --denny vrandečić 13:49, Feb 6, 2004 (UTC)
I feel that this page will soon turn to have the Lord's Prayer in all Romance languages.
Italian and Istro-Romanian are OK, since they are nearby Romance languages, but what do Romanian and Portugues have to do with Dalmatian ? Bogdan | Talk 20:44, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Having read just the Pater Noster, Dalmatian seemed me pretty a bridge between the Venetian (the language spoken for centuries in the parts of the Adriatic sea under Venetian rule) and the Romanian. --Alessandro Riolo 10:40, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Currently, the page is self-contradictory. It both had and not had Thracian substratum:
If anybody knows more about this subject, please reply. Bogdan | Talk 19:56, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Menur is 100% from Latin. It's found in Romanian as manare (and mana, 'to lead' ), Italian as menare ('to lead'), in French as mener ('to lead'), and Occitan as menar ('to lead'), to name a few. Dictionaries give the etymology as "from Late Latin minare (unattested; 'to drive, lead'), from Latin minari (to threaten)". See Latin minax, mineo, minatio, et cetera. The English word menace comes from these Latin words by way of Old French. Alexander 007 00:35, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Question: is Bartoli's work available on the net, or sections of it. Alexander 007 07:53, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
If somebody has the time and the references, somebody should put a link to a partial Dalmatian glossary or write one up if there isn't one. Alexander 007 07:55, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
What's the scoop on this. Are there old Dalmatian words in Croatian, or other linguistic influences on neighboring or nearby Slavs. Alexander 007 07:58, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I just noticed this sentence: Some of its (Dalmatian language) words have entered as borrowings in South Slavic languages and Albanian. They probably did (yes, I'm not being sarcastic, just skeptical), I'm just wondering if anybody can supply examples of such words, as I'd like to see them. Alexander 007 01:43, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Examples: more than a half of all maritime words (fishes, fishing, ships, winds,...) or anything connected to the sea. Many words in common language (especially in Chakavian dialect): MACAKLIN (bullock he-goat), GRIPA /GRIPELA, HRIPA, HRIPELA (stone road built in a specific way characteristical for Illyrian builders) - a quarter of Split has a name "Gripe" (plural!), GARMA (a hole in the stone coast),... in fact a lot of different words and many of geographical toponims in Dalmatia. Chakavian dialect speakers use so many Romanic words that all book can be written here about it. PONISTRA (Eng. WINDOW, Cro. PROZOR, Ita. FINESTRA). There are also many differencies in using of some terms among Chakavians depending on the places (city, village, islands). Sometimes 2 neighbouring islands use different names for the same thing and both names are Dalmatian romanisms. Zenanarh 10:34, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Not that I'm questioning the idea, but I'm trying to find out how much certainty there is behind the statement that the romance Dalmatians were Roman colonists, and not a Romanized population. Even a lack of known substratum words may not be conclusive. Alexander 007 02:57, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
I changed the term under "influences," because, if we're consistent, it turns out that there couldn't have been a Croatian language when there was no Croatian people. To put it a little more pragmatically, it doesn't look very good to talk about Croatian here. Plus to be specific never hurts...
Yes, of course this has to do with the language argument in Yugoslavia. But if we start infecting history with that argument, goodness - when do we stop? --VKokielov 04:30, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
I must disagree about Croatia being created recently. Yugoslavia was a recent creation, post WWI, but Croats, Serbs, Bosnians, etc... all had a sense of nationaltiy long before.
Basic historical data:
around 400BC the first Greek colonies are founded on Adriatic islands
around 100BC Romans rule over the east coast of Adriatic
305. Roman emperor Diocletian in present-day Split
around 600. Croats start moving to what is today Croatia
852. Duke Trpimir issues the Charter in which for the first time is mentioned the name Croatia, in domestic official documents
925. Tomislav, the first Croatian king is mentioned, unifier of Pannonian and Dalmatian Croatia
1102. After the death of Petar Svacic, the last Croatian king, Croatia enters into a union with Hungary
1242. King Bela IV issues the Golden Bull in which he proclaims Zagreb a Free Royal City
1433. The beginning of defense against the Turks, who through time occupy the larger part of Croatian territory
1527. By a decision of the Croatian Assembly, the dynasty of Habsburg comes to the Croatian throne
1699. Croatia is largely liberated of Turkish rule; continental Croatia remains under the rule of Habsburg, and the largest part of the Adriatic coast and islands are under Venice; only Dubrovnik Republic remains completely independent
1815. After the short-term rule of the French under Napoleon, who abolished Venice and Dubrovnik Republic, almost the whole of present-day Croatia enters into the Habsburg Monarchy
1847. Croatian becomes the official language of Croatia in Croatian Parliament (Sabor), replacing the Latin language
1848. Ban (Viceroy) Josip Jelacic defends Croatia against attempts of Hungarian occupation and unites all Croatian provinces
1866. Bishop Josip Juraj Strossmayer founds the Croatian Academy of Arts and Sciences, the first in southeastern Europe
1918. After the downfall of the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy in World War I, Croatia becomes part of the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes, later proclaimed Yugoslavia
1941. German and Italian forces occupy Yugoslavia; the organized partisan resistance starts, led by Croatian antifascists under the guidance of Josip Broz Tito
1945. The Federative Socialist Republic of Yugoslavia is proclaimed and within Yugoslavia, today's Croatia is a federative republic
The rest can be found on http://www.hr or more specifically http://www.hr/hrvatska/history.en.html
I deletted that statement because it's not true, Dalmatian never shared the palatalization of the group /-kt-/ as in western romance, but turned it into /-pt-/as in Romanian v.g.: L. octo > Sp. ocho, Fr. huit, Port. oito, but Rom. opt, Dalmatian guapto, the plural of nouns according to the Pater Noster version showed here was vocalic, as in Italian and Romanian, and not adding -s or -es as in western romance languages proper.
I'm aware now that the confusion is because of the different definitions of "Western" and "Eastern Romance". Some people seem to put Romanian as "Eastern Romance" alone and the rest of Romance in "Western Romance". In that case, Dalmatian is something intermediate. BUt the other classification puts most Italian dialects (central and meridional), and Romanian as "Eastern Romance" (they share features like vocalic plurals, -i as 2 person singular, lost of latin -s and no sonorization of intervocalic plosives). And the "Western Romance" are Rhaeto-romance, French, Occitan, Catalan, Castilian, Portugese, etc. They have -s as plural mark, sonorization of intervocalic plosives, latin -ct- went through a *-xt- > *-çt- phase and then -it-, etc. According to this, Dalmatian is clearly akin to Centro-meridional Italian and RoRomanian, so "Eastern".--DaniloVilicic (talk) 07:05, 23 March 2008 (UTC)DaniloVilicic
"Italo-Dalmatian" group? Isn't this language belonging to Eastern Romance languages, together with Romanian? I'll fix this. Kubura (talk) 09:45, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
It looks Bartoli was right, Dalmatian looks close to the spoken dialects of Southern Italy, specially Abruzzi, Molise, Puglie. However also in some features close to Friulan and Romanian (mainly in the exit -pt of lat. -ct). Has anybody took pains to go on the spot and question local people, I am sure they could make interesting discoveries through a study of personal onomastic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.163.8.110 (talk) 15:09, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
I have removed a paragraph describing "Korzulot", which User:195.194.240.65 claims is a Dalmatian language which has survived into the present day. A cursory check proves this to be untrue and the dialect to be nonexistant. Dewrad 08:03, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Korzulot (as a Dialect) does exist you moron. How dare you question its existance. The problem with people like you is that,.. being a Croat Nationalist, you can not imagine your beautiful little country speaking any other language than Croatian. I mean HOW FUCKING DOGMA does one have to get, to deny something as basic as this. What did you do,.. check the word out in google and see whether it turns up?!!
I am a Dalmatian of Italian Extraction, (and a Croatian Citizen). My grandmother was from Korcula(Old City) and spoke Korzulot quite well (might I add). Being so close to both Dubrovnik and Zadar, Korzulot is actually mentioned in the old archives of Dubrv.(found in Sponza Palace).
Don't tell me words like; "Shkoj", "Lenga" and "Zmuo" don't exist. Come on, plz,... I know you awsomely love your country and all that crap,.. but plz don't falsify History.
Majority of Dalmatia is in the Republic of Croatia. With a point sticking in Montenegro. This means, any literature you're talkin about is found in none other then Croatia. To be specivic the old archives of 3 oldest cities; Dubrovnik, Split and Zadar. To tell me that you haven't seen this word mentioned anywere else, is your problem not mine. Cakavian generally is problematic when it comes to sortation.
Right now,.. You caught me, out of time to moderate anything,.. but bear in mind that this is not over. I agree that the Internet is full of garbage and that Wikipedia is rather shallow, and very speculative (at some places), but Korzulot is real.
Is Dalmatian Eastern or Western Romance? Nergaal (talk) 18:58, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
OK, in order to restore some kind of consistency to the naming conventions in the article, and in order to appease our oddly doctrinaire anti-Italian Balkan contributor, might I suggest that we simply forgo any place-names aside from the current Croatian ones? Dewrad (talk) 07:05, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
I have changed names to Dalmatian ones, not Croatian. Zadar was Jadera (Iadera) for Dalmatian speakers, not Zara (Zara was Venetian name from 15th century when the most of them were already Slavized and the rest were becoming Venetianized), Vodnjan was Vicus Atinianus (Latin name) in 7th century when there was large majority of Dalmatian speakers, Italian Dignano came much later and was not connected to Dalmatian speakers in any way, Dubrovnik/Ragusa was Raguia (and some other similar formats) for Dalmatian speakers, although their dialect was named Ragusan in 18th century according to Ragusa, the same thing with others... What's the problem to have correct historical names since the article is about Dalmatian language, not Italian. Italian names developed when there was already a lack of Dalmatian speakers in these cities. Zenanarh (talk) 07:27, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Zadar - Dalmatian: Jadera / Jadra (phonetic Zadera / Zadra per Dalmatian dialect spoken in Zadar), see Talk:Zadar RFC section, no need to copy all of that material here
Vodnjan - Latin: Vicus Atinianus, Dalmatian: Adignani / Dignano!!! - OK I admit my mistake here, in several sources (including Vodnjan) article) I've found this sentence: Vodnjan was known as early as Roman times as Vicus Attinianum and listed in historical records in 932 at the time of Pietro Candiniano..., in some other it was the same but somewhat different graphy - Vicus Atinianus. However I also found a source [1] or the same in English [2] where it's written: The Ancient Romans defeated Histrians and setteled here in 2nd century BC. About this time the territory of Vodnjan was given for keeping to some Attinivs, so the place was known soon as VICUS ATTINIANUM, that gave probably ADIGNANI and latter DIGNANO. The local Croatian folk provided the Croatian transcription with expressions of direction 'in Dignano'... va Dinjane, va Vodnjane, and finally Vodnjan. Well I must apologize here, I'll change it to Adignani/Dignano. I simply made a mistake since Dalmatian was mostly vernacular language while Latin was predominanly used in the documents in the same time, so in some cases cities were documented by their Latin names also a few hundred years after the fault of the Roman Empire, it was a litlle bit weird (Vicus...) but possible for the previous reason...
For the rest of the cities you don't have to go far away, just check Wiki articles... Zenanarh (talk) 18:29, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Yes it's complex but some names can be easily "discovered", for example Zadar - Jadera - it's definitely not Latin, Venetian formats were Zara and hyper-urbanism format Jatara, both developed from indeginious Jadera. In the 14th century Dalmatian language was already largely influenced by other languages and format Çara is nothing but Venetian name of Zadar, not Dalmatian. I know about that letter, it's written by an author under large Venetian influence, so it doesn't give useful information. Actually none of these names is Venetian. Venetians were the biggest enemies of Dalmatian cities and it's hard to expect that Dalmatians used the names given by their enemies. In the contrary Venetian names developed from Dalmatian and Croatian ones much later. The most of present Croatian names developed from Romance (Dalmatian) language names. Latin Tragurium became Croatian Trogir, while Venetian was Trau, Dalmatian format was probably much closer to Latin and Croatian than to Venetian. Venetians never really populated Dalmatia. Whatever it's not incorrect to write Latin names of the cities since these formats were found in the documents (almost all written in Latin during Dalmatian language ages). Maybe Ragusan and Vegliot were dialects of the same languge but something else is interesting here. If you would come here to Dalmatia, and if I would lead you on little trip across Dalmatia, just to hear Chakavian Croatian from town to town, you would notice many similarities but also many differencies in some cases, and all these differencies have roots in different dialects of extinct Dalmatian. The most probably every city had its own dialect. But I'm sure it was the same language less or more. Zenanarh (talk) 21:07, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Mate Suić: «O imenu Zadra», Zadar Zbornik, Matica Hrvatska, Zagreb 1964 ("About the Name of Zadar")
Page 96:
Concerning the name of Zadar it can be surely stated that it was not of neither Croatian, neither Romance, neither Latin ancestry, it originated in ancient pre-Roman ages... Finished formats of Zadar name were found in the writings of Antique writers and in the inscriptions of the same periods, then later in Medieval documents as Jader, Jadera, Jadra (Iader, Iadera, Iadra) and other graphic and fonetic variances. From this format, the name for ethnicon (name of the habitant) was developed in Antique – Jadestini (Iadestini). Without suffixes there is a basical element (root) iad- the oldest name of Zadar. According to the geographic incidences of that root, it can be stated that it was found mostly in the ethnic territory populated by ancient Illyrians...
Author now discuss about the element adr- and finds it in the Illyrian territory but also it can be found somewhat wider. In summary originating of the name of Zadar should be found in much older past, in pre-Illyrian ages, and it should be concerned as one of those numerous names that ancient Mediterranean population left over across all Mediterranean coasts.
...Therefore toponim Jader(a) / Iader(a) can be considered as Illyrian at the same degree as modern format Zadar is considered to be Croatian, since confidently Jader (Iader) was Illyrianized format of some older toponimy, of unknown initial format.
Page 102-104:
There was one more phonetic change of the name in the early-Medieval, initial J- became Z-, which was a characteristic of old-Dalmatian Romance language… That change supposed to occur very early because it was reflected in Croatian name of the city too...
...name of the habitants of Medieval Zadar with graphy Jaderani, found in the legend about St. Krševan, as thought from 9th century… must be accented that format Jaderani, spoken Zad(e)rani by domestic population of 9th century, cannot be separated from initial old-Slavic format Zadъrane, from which ethnicity Zadrani was developed.
M.Suić: Prošlost Zadra – knjiga 1 “Zadar u starom vijeku”, Zadar, 1981. (History of Zadar – book 1 “Zadar in ancient ages”), page 113:
…Ethnicity Iadestinus (pl. Iadestini) was made of frequent formant in Illyrian language –st- which was found together with vocals –i- and –a- , also very possible in the name of Antique Zadar people, if they were hidden behind the name Ίαδαστινοί, from a Greek inscription from Salona in the 1st half of 1st century BC. Ethnicity was ended with suffix –ino which was also often found in the territory populated by Illyrians.
Very important is that accent was on the first syllable in both forms Iader and Iadera, which influenced the early-Medieval Romance form Jadra, from which in addition were developed the names of the city in Croatian and Italian language, where accent kept its original place. Jadra was actually only a graphy in official Medieval Latinism, saved by tradition. In early-Romance period it was spoken Zadra, because the group –Ja-, as everywhere, was transformed to Za-. In Venetian dialect, the group –dr- was transformed to –r- (that is one of the characteristics of of that dialect, examples patron – paron), in the contrary it was saved in Croatian language, so obviously Croatian name was closer to original form than Italian name, which was undertaken from Venetian dialect. Zadra (female gender) was transformed to male gender (Zadar) by congruence with appellative «grad» ("city" in Croatian language - male gender), in the same way as Sisak from Siscia.
page 103:
Further development of the name was in Venetian language. A group -dr- transformed to -r- there... So Jadra, spoken Zadra was changed with Venetian Zara and from there later into Italian literral language. This proves that Croatian format Zadar is closer to pre-format from which modern names were developed.
...The name of the city was also found in old French chronics which were describing the accidents from Fourth Crusade (P.Skok: "Tri starofrancuske kronike o Zadru u godini 1202.", Zagreb 1951, - "Three old-French chronics about Zadar in the year of 1202"). The name of the city was Jadres there. It’s usually considered that this graphy had responded to the local people pronunciation of the name, according to format Jadra which was most found in the documents, with final –s of French language singular nominative. Some of the authors of these chronics were passing through the city so allegedly they were able to hear how native population pronounced the name. However a somewhat different view is much more convincing. In the age of Fourth Crusade Zadar was very important centre, known much far out of Dalmatia; its name written in official Latin was spreading through the documents and literal writings. Therefore much more logical conclusion is that authors of these chronics, written directly after the accidents that were described (a siege), simply Franchised a conventional graphy Jadra (-e- exchanging –a- and adding –s for nominative), taken from numerous written sources and without interference by local educated people...
Summary:
As you can see the city never really changed its name in last 1.500 years and it was definitely Jadera/Jadra (read: Zad'ra) in Dalmatian. Zara or Çara is the same phonetically - Venetian name.
Concerning your comment So the Dalmatians hated the Venetians and would never use Venetian names for these cities, except for this one guy who happens to be the author of about all we have remaining of the Ragusan dialect? It's nothing strange. The point is that in 14th century almost all names found in the original documents in Zadar, concerning the population of the city and surrounding, were Croatian ones. In that moment Venetian name of the city (Zara) was already transfered to other dialects of Italian language (Tuscan etc...). Since trade was the most important business for Zadar prosperity there were many strangers in transition there and some of them settled down in Zadar (See notars in sources above - from Piacenza, from Padua). The number of Dalmatian speakers was already very small, probably concentrated around a several families with longer traditions who were BTW closer to the city elite than to masses. For newcomers from Italian cities it was probably much easier in the begining to communicate and to make relations with them than to Croatian speaking majority. That was how Dalmatian dialect in Zadar became "Venetianized" and mentioned letter is usually taken as proof for it. For our purpose it would be much better to have a letter from 9th than from 14th century. I'm gonna take a look at some other sources concerning other cities, maybe I can find something. If not, your proposal is not bad. Jadera and Vikla is not enough. Zenanarh (talk) 10:30, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Island of Rab was first mentioned in Greek source Periplus of Pseudo-Scylax (384 BC) and then other Greek and Roman geographists by name Arba. That name belonged to the Liburnians, so far the oldest known inhabitants of the island. Arba was also the name of the Liburnian settlement in the place of modern city of Rab. It's not certain how old is this name, the most possibly same old as the settlement, which means from the beginning of the Iron Age, since the Liburnians didn't built the city walls on the island, namely Illyrian-Liburnian Arb meant dark, obscure, green, forested. Therefore name Arba should be comprehended as toponym in meaning of "Black island", due to the rich pine forests once grown on the island.
After 1st century AD it was recorded by many other Greek and Roman authors by names Arba, Arva.
Its Medieval Dalmatian speaking population was using Arbe, Arbia, Arbiana, Arbitana and the most frequently Arbum in the documents written in Latin language.
Arbe became also Venetian name of the city in 15th century when it fell under authority of the Republic of Venice.
Croats translated it to Rab in the spirit of their language (Croatian), probably already in 7th century when they settled the island. However the first record of Croatian name was saved in the middle of 15th century (in a Latin document of establishment of Franciscan monastery St. Eufemija), since the city was slowly inhabited by Croats, not before 10th century, unlike the rest of the island and all of the region.
First known bishop of Rab participated at the provincial assembly in Salona in 15th June 530 and 4th May 533. His signs were Ticyanus episcopus ecclesiae Arbensis (530) and Ticyanus episcopus sanctae ecclesiae Arbensis (533).
Similarity: (Zadar) Jadra – Jadrensis; (Rab) Arba?, Arbe – Arbensis. In both cases Dalmatian language names with identical formation of genitives in the documents written in Latin language. Also another similarity - for some documents in 13th, 14th century - administrative Latin names developed from initial Dalmatian names: Jaderatina, Arbitana. Zenanarh (talk) 16:39, 16 April 2008
I've added the english version. I think what I've put fits perfectly with the dalmatian version. Bardeluc (talk) 13:18, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
This article and the discussions above are proof of the bias of the compilers. If they were objective they would recognise that:
1) to date there are Dalmatian speakers, one has only to go on the spot and do some field research.
2) according to reliable sources (since the napoleonic times we had censuses: ie the survey conducted by French general Marmont and then the censuses of the Austrian Empire) there were numerous Italian speakers in Dalmatia. These included Dalmatian speakers and other who spoke Venetian Italian as in Zara.
3)All the contributions of the Croat linguists here are biased as they try to prove that Dalmatian language was superseded by Croatian first and that Latin speakers there were later immigrants from Venice Republic or other parts of Italy. However they are unable to give evidence of this fact unless anecdotical. In Zara lived tens of thousands of people before 1943 and almost no Croatians. Is it credible that all of them were not the descendents of the original Dalmatians but later Venetian immigrants? It is only a natural phenomenon that the language of the dominant power becomes accepted by locals when it is relatively closely related as Romance languages are. A good example are the county of Nice and Corse. Speakers of local Ligurian (earlier) and Corse (later) little by little accepted the use of French.
4) It would be interesting to conduct a survey on surnames (easy: just take a phone directory). Many Ragusean surnames look Italian, not Venetians. But similar to those of Abruzzi and Molise or even Tuscany. I can testify that autoctone ragusean families accepted the use of Tuscan Italian having met in 1985 a gentleman from this city who asserted: "My family is originary of Ragusa. In my family we have always spoken Italian". His Italian was good and bore no traces of Venetian influence.Aldrasto (talk) 05:10, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
1) There are no Dalmatian language speakers anymore, but a large part of that vocabulary is saved in Chakavian dialect of Croatian language which originated as symbiosis of Dalmatian and proto-Slavic in the Early Medieval through process of Slavization.
2) In the beginning of the 19th century there was around 15.000 Italian speakers in Dalmatia which was around 5% of Dalmatian population.
3) In the 9th century population of Jadera (Zadar) was bilingual: Croatian and Dalmatian. In the 10th century population in Jadera was predominatly Croatian speaking. In the 13th and 14th century almost all names in notary were Croatian. In the 16th century only noblemen were able to use Venetian there. Italianization of Zara (Zadar) was unsuccesful during Venetian republic, it really occurred not earlier than in 2nd half of the 19th century, but Italian domination in population occurred only in 1918 when Italian army entered the city.
4) It was noble to speak Italian in higher circles, which has nothing to do with ethnicity in those times. However it's stupid to reflect habits of a few noble families onto overall population of the city and surrounding and derive completely wrong conclusions from that. Zenanarh (talk) 09:58, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
2) The number of Italians in 1845 was 45 000 according to the Austrian census (see original document, link in the discussion on voice Zadar).
3)unsourced statements.
4) it does have its value: noble and other upper class people were the descendents of the original inhabitants (Dalmatians), Croats were immigrants from the countryside. The upper class had to learn Croatian because there were many Croatians speakers there, and over time started to use it widely, however they knew they themselves were not.
Moreover they were also influenced by the contacts with the Italian speakers from the ports of Italy due to maritime trade: Dalmatian language was supersided by popular Italian or lingua franca, not by Venetian. See the letter you quote above and the letter to 'Cholane de Fanfona' (1397) on the article on Morlacchan language in the Italian Wiki.Aldrasto (talk) 06:47, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
After writing the above post I started to read Lucio's "Memorie di Tragurio..."(link provided on Venezia Giulia and Dalmazia portal Wiki.it). I discovered that he has proved beyond doubt the fact that vulgar latin (indeed Italian) forms creeped into the language of the statutes of Zadar (Zara), Split (Spalato), Trogir (Tragurio) and Dubrovnik (Ragusa), which were all written between the XI and the beginning of the XIV century. He gives lists of words (around 20 for each town) and also quotes long witness statements in perfect Italian, not Venetian.(pp. 190sgg.-204, chap. 2, part 4). This fact proves that in Dalmatian towns a form of vulgar Latin identical to contemporary Italian was widely in use. I shall quote lists below later, I am not good at giving links, sorry.
Example from Ragusean statutes:
1.4 sclatta=family; 13 barca, servitoribus; 14 marinarij; 17 viagium; 18 forasterij; 22 discaricare, caricare; 25 robaria; 29 briga=discordia; 38 sclavina; 40 laborierij; 54 mercantie; 2.3 compagnia; 13 imprestare; 45 pacare debitum, pacamentum; 4.72 bastardus, ruffiana; 5.3 balchionem= fenestra;6.26 robatoribus stratarum; 16 imprestare; 48 vogare barcam; 54 ingravidare; 77 alibamentis.
Example from the will of the Zadar principal,( AD 908!):
capita de pecora; uno panno de sirico et uno savano; una coppa de argento; una lena caprina; una butte de vino; uno cavallo; modia de grano; uno feltro parato cum sirico; cum duo filii; ad Zanello... vinea que comparavi de Maria Venetica, et alia fascia de vinea que evvi de Barbano de Crasuni.
A document from Raab (Arbe);
... po' fo vendute le altre 20 circa 1285. Fo partiti tutti li sopradetti denari sesegondo so, se scritto, et Arbe, et eo ai le segurtate.
mo se vendute le altre a Ser Antonio Foscari per libre 5, e sol: 5 de gross de dum a' pero' guardo lo pagamento da lo flume.Aldrasto (talk) 11:01, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
It is however really unfortunate and a very difficult fact to interpret, that he does not give us one word of the Dalmatian language. This is all the more inexplicable as he starts with 2 wills from Zadar of the X century and ends with witnesses of the late XIV.
So up to now I think the only certain words of Dalmatian (Vegliot excepted) that we know are the 4 quoted by De Diversis: teta, chesa, pen, fachir. Since the attribution and source of such words are certain therefore we can use them as paradigm by which judge other hypothetical Dalmatian words. And none of the above is.
Aldrasto (talk) 14:55, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
2) Austrian census was based on "language spoken in public life" (!), not on ethnicity, bearing in mind that Italian was official (proclaimed by fake document in the begining of the 19th century, opposite to decision in Vienna), and that Italian administration was carrying this census locally it's strange how small number it is ;) On the other side, according to words of spiritus movens of Italian community in Dalmatia (forgot his name, but I have it somewhere if you're interested) the real number of the Italians in all Dalmatia around 1820 was around 15.000 - so 5% of overall population. But when nationalistic movements started the Italians started to prefabricate and invent some other much bigger numbers.
3) unsourced? heh quite opposite. There's very rich archive in Zadar. What I've written above is derived from original Zadar documents. Example: 1st prior of Zadar ever recorded in the documents was Drago - a Croat, in the 9th century! Etc.... Maybe it's enough to say is that 1st Italian nobleman in Zadar was recorded in the 16th century, never before!
4) Only Dubrovnik archive has Dalmatian language documents. All other cities statutes were written in Latin, notar language of Medieval Europe! You mentioned letter above. To whom? To Fanfona! Do you know who was Fanfona? Or Fanfogna, Fanfonja,... - Croatian nobleman. Surname Fanfonja in Croatian means: one who speaks nasally, through his nose. ;) Zenanarh (talk) 11:07, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
it does have its value: noble and other upper class people were the descendents of the original inhabitants (Dalmatians), Croats were immigrants from the countryside. The upper class had to learn Croatian because there were many Croatians speakers there, and over time started to use it widely, however they knew they themselves were not. - this is complete ignorance of history of the western Balkans, it's not your fault, it's fault of those authors who feed you with such nonsense. The Croats came in the 7th century and settled Zadar region (Liburnia), after the 8th century they also moved to Dalmatia and then wider. However, by archaeology their number was relatively small in comparison to the number of the indigenes - selectively Romanized Illyrians, Dalmatae, Liburni. These Croats were political warrior group - they Slavized the indigenes. It's enough to say that modern Croats in Dalmatia have absolute peak of I2a2 Y chrommosome haplo-group (original Paleolithic Europeans) in Europe, 50-60%. Zenanarh (talk) 11:19, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
But it's offtopic. You seem to have no basic knowledge about your own language, how else to interpret your comments about vulgar Latin etc. I can only repeat Štambuk's words: Please educate yourself on the basics of Romance philology and redirect this irredentist nonsense to your blogs and Greater Italy fora. Zenanarh (talk) 07:20, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
Romanian: Lat. p to D. and R. t (as in pater, tuota, tatal). However (panis, pun or pen, painea).
Istriot: in the discussions above it is not mentioned. BTW this looks odd as there is a point concerning the name of Dignano/Dignani, a place where Istriot is the original local language as long as Rovijn/Ruveign,Fasana, Gallesano ecc. So these are the original toponims. See the relevant articles on wiki. Istriot has its own literary tradition too. See also Istrianet for comprehensive information about Istriot. It looks that D. was closer to Istriot than Friulan.
Jadera: it is probably related to Adria (Hatria), an ancient toponim of uncertain origin.Aldrasto (talk) 14:20, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
If Adria is Venetic then it is Indo-European. According to most recent research Venetic is strictly cognate to Italic languages (and not Illyrian or Celtic as previously believed). However I think Adria is not originally Venetic, since it is attested in the form Hatria, Etruscan. Etruscans probably inherited it from Illyrians. The forms ader, dor- (rivers), etc are IE. See Greek hydor too.
BTW while reading Lucio's "Memorie..." above I found that at p.174 he quotes Villari' "Chroniche" and there the form 'Giadra' is attested. So Giadra for Zara is not a hypothesis, it was really in use in Italy before the Venetian form took root.Aldrasto (talk) 15:09, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
The text of the Lord's Prayer and the Parable of the Prodigal Son appear to be taken from the primary source on Dalmatian, Das Dalmatische, listed in the References.
I found both when searching the text in Google books.
http://books.google.com/books?id=aK40AQAAMAAJ&dq=Das%20Dalmatische&pg=RA1-PA310#v=onepage&q&f=false
Lord's Prayer: https://play.google.com/books/reader2?id=aK40AQAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&output=reader&hl=en&pg=GBS.RA1-PA150
Prodigal Son: https://play.google.com/books/reader2?id=aK40AQAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&output=reader&hl=en&pg=GBS.RA1-PA128
I'm not sure exactly how the article should be updated as I'm not an experienced editor or the like, but I figure someone could use this information to put the proper sources in. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cassander (talk • contribs) 22:36, 18 October 2014 (UTC) Cassander (talk) 22:40, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
Today there are about 20 or more people in Dalmatia and other countries who learned Dalmatian language from books and can speak it . [1] 93.143.55.107 (talk) 21:22, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
References
^ This IP address is currently blocked.
As of this revision, there appears to be a dead link at reference 12. I located a possible replacement here.
I checked the Internet Archive, and no history of the original link can be found.
- Sir Beluga (talk) 16:51, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
I would just like to point out some issues that I have noticed in this article - I hope it is not understood to be overly critical as I have tried to make the comments constructive. I understand that there is an aim among some to revive Dalmatian, which is commendable, but if those concerned do not have access to Bartoli's Das Dalmatische, Band II Glossare und Texte - Grammatik und Lexikon, I strongly encourage you to find a copy as it will enable a much higher quality of revived Dalmatian. It is the source of all Dalmatian words given below.
Some of the words marked as reconstructed in the Swadesh list are in fact attested for Dalmatian and as such do not need reconstructed forms made for them. A few examples follow with Bartoli's Italian gloss following the assumed English sense:
/feather//penna/ is attested as paina
/legs//gambe/ as guonb/guanb - singular would no doubt be *guonba/*guanba, which arguably isn't a reconstruction as it follows regular patterns in the language and is predictable from attested forms
/breast//seno/ as sian
/narrow//stretto/ as strat/striat/struat
/animal//animale/ as animul/animuol
/snake//serpente/ as serpiant
/wash//lavare/ as lavur/lavuar
/left//sinistro/ as siniastro
/if//se/ as se
/swim//nuotare/ as notuor
/seed//seme/ as semiaur or semiansa, the given word grun (which also occurs as gruon) is /grain//grano/
/live//vivere/ is actually attested in the form given - vivar, so it is not a reconstruction at all
/cloudy//nuvolo/ is attested as neolo/núvol, though I have been unable to find any word for /cloud/ itself
I have not checked all the forms marked as reconstructed to see if any others are also attested, but these certainly are, nor have I systematically gone through those not marked such.
femia is attested but is glossed as /femmina/ by Bartoli; dona /donna/ is possibly the usual word for /woman/ as opposed to /female/ though no doubt some blurring would not be unusual as it indeed is not in Italian
*kratoir for /child/ is apparently not a form attested by Bartoli - the attested forms are cratoire and kreatoire, which are glossed by Bartoli as /creature/, which is hardly a term that can be taken as meaning /child/ - the usual sense is /creation/. I am aware that the usual word for child in for example Portuguese is /criança/ which did originally mean something like /creation/, but this can hardly be taken as evidence for a language on the other side of the Romance domain, particularly as a better fit for the meaning is attested: the word trok is glossed as /ragazzo/ and has a feminine troka which would be better terms for /child/ in the list, as /ragazzo/ is not ambiguous, unlike /creature/
It is also worth noting that in addition to jualb/juolb for /white//bianco/, Bartoli also includes blank
I would also like to raise concerns about some of the reconstructions: *subtir presupposes a change in Dalmatian of intervocalic l to r (as in Romanian), which is not attested to the best of my knowledge, and as the word muogro is attested in Dalmatian in the meaning /thin//magro/, there is no reason to reconstruct anything in this meaning
*fuma does not conform to expected sound changes and I cannot understand why it would be given as a feminine ending in -a either - all nearby Romance languages have /smoke/ from Latin /fūmus/ (Romanian /fum/, Venetian /fumo/, Rumantsch /füm//fem/) and as the attested word loina from Latin /lūna/ shows, the regular Dalmatian development of this ū is oi, thus *foim would be the expected word for /smoke/. If the -a ending form existed it would have been *foima, not *fuma in any case
As a final note, I would like to express curiosity regarding the reconstructed word for /fog/, *cieta - I assume it is intended to relate to Romanian /ceață/, but Dalmatian does not regularly palatalise latin /k/ before /e/ - note /cēra/ and /cēna/ becoming kaira and kaina. The palatalisation seems to occur before Dalmatian (not Latin) /i/ as in cil /sky/. And it does palatalise /kiV/ regularly. It is difficult to know for sure how /*caecia/ might have developed in Dalmatian but something like *kaiza (/z/ = ts or dz) would probably not be far off, with *ciza being an alternative possibility. This all depends of course on Dalmatian having a cognate word to the Romanian for /fog/ too, though similarly derived forms occur in Rumantsch (Sursilvan tschaghera and Puter/Vallader tschiera for example) and like Dalmatian all of these have replaced /caecus/ with /orbus/ in the meaning /blind/ (except that /orv/ occurs alongside /tschiec/ in Sursilvan). A derivative of /nebula/ might be considerably more likely though, as reflexes of this are found throughout Rumantsch as well as in Venetian and elsewhere in Italy.
I hope if nothing else, that all this gives food for thought and I wish those reviving Dalmatian as a living language all the best in their endeavours - I will check to see if any discussion has developed on the basis of my post and if any questions arise I will be happy to answer if I can.210.50.248.176 (talk) 09:15, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
The entire Literature section needs sources; in particular I can find no web existence of the referenced "Adi la raipa" poetry text. I've checked scholarly databases as well as Google (the only hits are this wiki page and scraping pages that reuse the wiki content). I searched in French, Italian, and English. Users proficient in Croatian or related languages might see if there is a web reference beyond my linguistic means. Otherwise this should probably be removed until there's evidence of its existence. Jillcicle (talk) 16:48, 2 March 2024 (UTC)