The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Salvio ^giuliano 17:04, 19 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Costa Titch (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

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No evidence of notability per WP:NMUSIC. I don't see any significant coverage of the musician; all the coverage, at least in reliable sources, is about his death. —C.Fred (talk) 16:54, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Bands and musicians and South Africa. —C.Fred (talk) 16:54, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose he has a clip with 45 million views on Youtube and did a collab with Akon. Makes him more notable than 90% of bio entries on this site I guess. Synotia (moan) 17:11, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Steams can be bought so aren't reliable, nor any sort of notability criteria here. They aren't audited like newspaper circulation or radio airplay is. Oaktree b (talk) 22:55, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep A non notable artist will not be having this much attention for his death. Lot of detailed references found. Also he has collaborated with world famous artist Akon as found in references. Also he is a All Africa Music Awards 2022 award nominee Christopheronthemove (talk) 17:27, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep @C.Fred Your point is moot since if he was indeed not notable why all the coverage from all international media?See this search link And this for awards given. Sbliecer (talk) 17:36, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Dance-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 18:29, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Be realistic…. The article gives 2 generic sentences for his “biography”. There’s only one reliable source in this entire article, Washington Post, that gave no information about his career in his lifetime, only that he died onstage and they posted a social media link of a video. They didn’t mention any notable songs, anything. They only reported on the speculative manner of his death, the cause of which has not yet been confirmed. Notability for a musician on Wikipedia has requirements and unfortunately the subject did not meet them. His collaboration with Akon did not reach any certifications such as gold or platinum nor did it chart. The song itself doesn’t even have an article. Trillfendi (talk) 19:46, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

comment This bias is really strong and I don't see it going on for long. An alternative platform shall come up to address these kinds of biases.

Costa Titch is mentioned all over the net just by searching his name. I still don't understand how famous you have to be to qualify for a page in Wikipedia. I remember being in a similar deletion discussion of Kevin Samuels page till finally it was added. Same argument that @Trillfendi is making. You really don't have to have a collabo with Akon or be certified Platinum to deserve a page on wikipedia when millions of South Africans know your name. Sbliecer (talk) 22:07, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Without taking sides, I'd like to point out this is the English Wikipedia. When pages about non-English singers are created, they need to be well sourced enough and notable enough to be on the site, because otherwise we don't know how notable they really are. Race To Oblivion (ネザーへのハイウェイ) (talk) 12:31, 13 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

non-English ? :) Synotia (moan) 19:39, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You're welcome to take the information here to another platform, in fact, it's encouraged that you share it, that's what wikipedia's licensing allows! Oaktree b (talk) 20:13, 13 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I go based on the evidence right there, not so-called bias of subjects that none of us even know personally. Kevin Samuels, famous for overt misogyny in his lifetime, was also on notable television shows and music videos as himself. So that had to have indicated notability on his part to reach mainstream audiences in the media. It’s ironic that Samuels only received reliable sources when he died, but in his lifetime he became notable as whatever cultural commentator he perceived himself to be. That said, Sbliecer, it doesn’t matter if millions know your name if you can’t get reliable sources to verify the criteria of notability on Wikipedia. In my opinion, unfortunately, Titch’s death only creates WP:ONEEVENT. Sources only covering him for the manner of his death rather than his career and they’ll stop talking about it by the end of the month. Trillfendi (talk) 21:18, 13 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Point. I respect your opinion but I still beg to differ. No way an artist is one of the most nominated for a continental event in January 2023 and dies in March 2023 and that is classified as one event. See this Link Sbliecer (talk) 21:59, 13 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This article shows that he did not win any of the awards in this awards show. Trillfendi (talk) 22:47, 13 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This is turning to some troll kind of discussion. There is update with award he won. Will you now say the awards needs to be 4 won? Sbliecer (talk) 23:04, 13 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I'm neutral on this nom for now, but I do agree that something has gone wrong, particularly on AFD, and it seems like well-known South African WP:RS are systematically disregarded despite WP:WORLDWIDE existing. I can't see this lasting much longer either: perhaps the WP:GNG criteria should include "of interest to readers, or generally known, in the Core Anglosphere". South Africa is in a weird position: it's de facto a large, English-speaking country. It's always been a bit isolated, first because of apartheid, now because of demographic differences. Popular culture, politics, education and the media are dominated by the English language, but as the white English-speaking population ages, emigrates or assimilates (see the subject of this nom), popular English South African culture could diverge even more from mainstream Anglosphere culture. Or maybe black South African English culture is becoming more prominent? Perhaps Wikipedia isn't the place for content from a country like that, and the time has come for clearer content guidelines, and to admit that a truly worldwide, English encyclopedia isn't really possible. South African editors aren't blameless here, and they don't participate in AFDs and edit regularly. I think the situation is analogous to what's happened with IMDB, where Indian movies made it into the Top 250, pushing out western movies (although Wikipedia has unlimited space so the analogy isn't perfect).[1]. Park3r (talk) 23:18, 13 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose deletion. I urge the OP to withdraw the request, which is borderline vandalism given the story of his passing is trending. Brmull (talk) 21:04, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

User:Brmull has been given a warning template for referring to an AFD nomination as borderline vandalism. Do not yell vandalism to win a content dispute. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:56, 13 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Do the nominations for the awards not count towards notability? I'm not familiar with African music awards. Oaktree b (talk) 22:54, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Weak Delete - Does not satisfy musical notability or general notability. Does not satisfy NMUSIC because does not satisfy any of the numbered criteria. You may ask for an opinion at the Music WikiProject as to whether the nominations are sufficient basis for notability. Does not satisfy gneral notability because the article does not speak for itself and does not provide third-party covrage of his career. The Heymann criterion would be to provide third-party coverage within six days, or to obtain an opinion that the nominations for awards confer notability. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:11, 13 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Thank you for the point about the article needing to speak for itself. Given the state the article was in at the time of nomination, I had seriously considered whether CSD A7 applied. I ultimately decided it didn't, but that a deletion discussion was in order. Also, given the other attempts at article creation from the original editor, this is the first article that's had any sticking power in mainspace. When there's been a stream of non-notable article attempts, it can be hard to recognize when one comes along that might have merit. —C.Fred (talk) 00:24, 14 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Point Added a detailed news article about him, which talks about his debut music album from OkayAfrica Christopheronthemove (talk) 07:46, 13 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep He has multiple music nominations and a collaboration with Akon, even if it didn't blow up. Some sources about his career rather than his death have been added too by some users. --Brunnaiz (talk) 14:24, 13 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep: Pretty disappointed with the systemic bias here and people saying he fails WP:NMUSIC despite easily meeting criterion #8 (being the most nominated artist at the 2022 All Africa Music Awards). Why? I Ask (talk) 23:37, 13 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep: I used Google advanced search date filtering to look for coverage up to 2022 to get away from the noise around his death. He received coverage in 2020 from at least two different mainstream websites associated with WP:RS, discussing accusations of cultural appropriation that seem to have resulted in discussion and controversy. [2][3]. Also found some other coverage in SA Hip Hop Magazine, but haven't been able to evaluate the source: [4]. Also coverage from GQ about releasing an album with AKA [5]. He also received coverage in Tanzania for a concert, in what appears to be a mainstream daily English newspaper [6]. Personally, I feel he is an interesting example of of post-apartheid cultural appropriation vs assimilation amongst white South Africans (see especially the Times Live article) and that can be covered in the article. Meets WP:GNG. Park3r (talk) 00:18, 14 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  @Park3r Thank you for your deep dive into sources. The article has already been expanded with mention of the awards—which were not in the article at the time of nomination. It sounds like the cultural appropriation accusations could make for article material as well. I find myself thinking that the worst that should happen to the article is to send it to draft space for incubation, rather than to delete it outright—and even that may not be necessary. —C.Fred (talk) 00:32, 14 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not a fan of draftifying articles, especially since there's already a dearth of editors on SA topics and we need to encourage them wherever possible and a mainspace article is more likely to do that, and also because WP:NOTCLEANUP. Maybe consider withdrawing your nom? Park3r (talk) 00:47, 14 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. Ample coverage of his death (and enough before that), which wouldn't exist if he wasn't notable. BoyTheKingCanDance (talk) 03:48, 14 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep, nominator please withdraw this doomed nomination. Abductive (reasoning) 05:11, 14 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep, meets WP:NMUSIC #8 due to him being most nominated in 2022 all african music awards Nagol0929 (talk) 12:00, 14 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep, subject is clearly notable as per WP:NMUSIC #8, BUT, and here's the problem, this notability needs to be written on the page. Please take note, @Sbliecer! Race To Oblivion (ネザーへのハイウェイ) (talk) 15:14, 14 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Comment, Well noted, and updated. Sbliecer (talk) 04:19, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep, subject seems to meet #8 of NMUSIC. -Xclusivzik (talk) 17:26, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - sufficient sources to show notability. GiantSnowman 19:17, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - I have been following this debate as new info about the rapper slowly trickled in, and at first I was undecided on the WP:ONEEVENT question. It is obvious that most of the rapper's media coverage is about his death a few days ago, though it was described in a robust article in the reliable Rolling Stone ([7]), and that and similar articles took the opportunity to catch up on belated coverage of his previous popularity in South Africa. The article here needed to be cleaned up to focus on the right things, and the community is working on it thanks to the trends in this AfD debate. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (TALK|CONTRIBS) 18:57, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - good sourcing. Plenty of notability through WP:BIO.BabbaQ (talk) 17:49, 18 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.