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Adam:
Well, I can just imagine how this is going to go. I'm going to object to this effort to blatantly propagandize this article, and you're undoubtedly going hurl charges of "apologia" and "rationalizations." I find this unfortunate, given the great deal of respect that I have for you and your work.
Refrain from advocacy and work within the confines of NPOV policies. In order to keep this civil, tone down this article. Don't accuse me of supporting this regime. 172 11:53, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Rather than restoring the old article, I'm putting up a neutrality flag. I'll give you some time to clam down, and tone the article down, on your own. You cannot write a polemic that might as well come from the AEI or Heritage Foundation here. This is a repugnant regime, but NPOV policies still apply. 172 12:04, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I'm perfectly calm, thanks very much. Rather than running off to daddy, why don't you tell me which bits of my edit you don't like? I note, of course, that you have consistently failed to do this at Aleksandr Lukashenko, despite repeated requests, so I'm not optimistic. If you do, however, I am quite happy to discuss these points with you. My starting position, of course, is that my edit has made the article both more encyclopaedic and more readable than it was before. Adam 12:16, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Plus I have even used a photo that shows us what Kim actually looks like, rather than a propaganda cartoon. How wicked of me. Adam 12:18, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Aww, you're no fun at all. Let the record show that I offered to discuss your objections to my edit, and that you declined. I will now remove your "neutrality flag," since you can't have it both ways. Flagging an article then declining to debate is just a form of blackmail. "Fear neither criticism nor self-criticism" (Mao Zedong). Adam 13:26, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)
So, User:172 insists on attaching a "neutrality flag" to this article, but is apparently afraid to debate the matter. This is the mark of an intellectual coward. I rest my case. Adam 13:36, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I don't give a toss about your reputation, which is one of an apologist for Stalinist regimes who lacks the guts to defend his position when challenged. You're welcome to it. Adam 13:51, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)
This is pathetic! - You are both acting like children - Why don't you both go off and create some real content, and stay the heck away from this imbroglio. Furry animals sounds about right. Adam, you can do the Spotted Quoll and 172 can do the Red necked Pademelon. And, if you don't know what they are then it is high time you found out!!! - Gaz 13:34, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)
My thanks to Gaz for giving me the opportunity to write about the spotted quoll, which has been on my to-be-done list for many years. I remain ready to debate Kim Jong-Il with 172 or anyone else. Adam 06:13, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Bravo Adam!! - Wikipedia is enriched and the world is (hopefully) now a safer place for the Spotted Quoll. No word yet from 172 on the Red necked Pademelon. Perhaps these photos will provide some inspiration. - Gaz 11:14, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Apparently, Kim Il-sung had two sons named Kim Pyong-il. According to Suh Dae-sook's biography of Kim Il-sung, the first was born to Kim Chong-suk (also Kim Jong-il's mother) in 1944, and died "in a swimming accident" in 1947. The Kim Pyong-il who challenged Kim Jong-il for power was a half-brother, as mentioned in [1]. I haven't been able to find a date of birth for him. -- Sekicho 07:58, Mar 2, 2004 (UTC)
The birth date for Kim Pyong-Il I saw was 1944, but that doesn't seem to fit the chronology. On Stalinist apologists, my view is that if it looks like a spotted quoll, flies like a spotted quoll and quacks like a spotted quoll, then it probably is a spotted quoll. Adam 21:54, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Since 172 has indicated that he has no further contribution to make to this page, I am again removing his "disputed neutrality" tag. If he reverts this change again, I will refer the matter to Disputes Between Users or whatever it is called now. Adam 23:47, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I have now protected the page. PMA 15:44, Mar 4, 2004 (UTC)
Thanks to PMA for protecting the page, which was my intention. It can now stay protected until hell (aka the DPRK) freezes over, or 172 goes back to his gulag, or both. I am glad that 172 is feeling frustrated. I hope he feels sufficiently frustrated to go away and leave this project to people who actually want to write an encyclopaedia rather than eulogise tyrants and murderers. One of my missions in life is to cause frustration to people like him by ramming the truth down their throats till they gag. I'm sorry to be blunt, but six months experience at WP has taught me that this is the only way to deal with the little cell of stalinoid propagandists who infest this project. Adam 23:41, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)
My 2 cents: whatever 172's motives (and he is impossible to work with), I wouldn't be surprised if the North Koreans adopted his versions of this article as their official biography of Kim, it's that unjustifiably laudatory. Given the minimal information we have to work with, the current version does at least give some semblance of balance. --Robert Merkel 00:20, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)
My objections to 172's edits have nothing whatever to do with Kim Dae-Jung's policy, and I have no idea where he gets this idea from. I would have thought a discussion of the policy really belongs under Kim Dae-Jung or Politics of South Korea, but I have no objection to it being mentioned here. But the key point about Kim's policy of course was that it failed, because the DPRK saw it, as communists always see concessions, merely as a sign of weakness to be exploited. They used Kim's policy as a device for extorting more "aid" out of the west, while conceding nothing in return.
My objections to 172's edits have to do with their general fatuousness and dishonesty. An example:
My paragraph:
On the domestic front, Kim has given occasional signs that he favors economic reforms similar to those carried out in China by Deng Xiaoping, and on visits to China he has expressed admiration for China's economic progress. But at home he has done little or nothing to relax the absolute control of the state and party over all aspects of economic life. He has certainly given no sign of considering the decollectivisation of agriculture, which was the foundation of Deng's reforms.
172's paragraph:
On the domestic front, Kim has given occasional signs that he favors economic reforms similar to those carried out in China by Deng Xiaoping, and on visits to China he has expressed admiration for China's economic progress. So far, however, little progress has been made concerning the decollectivization of agriculture, which was the foundation of Deng's reforms.
First, 172 has removed this sentence: "But at home he [Kim] has done little or nothing to relax the absolute control of the state and party over all aspects of economic life." This statement is both true and relevant, indeed vital, to the topic of the paragraph. Removing it seriously distorts the meaning of the paragraph, suggesting that Kim is carrying our genuine reforms when he is doing no such thing.
Second, 172 changes this sentence: "He [Kim] has certainly given no sign of considering the decollectivisation of agriculture, which was the foundation of Deng's reforms" to this: "So far, however, little progress has been made concerning the decollectivization of agriculture, which was the foundation of Deng's reforms." This suggests that Kim has made an in-principle decision to decollectivise agriculture, and that some progress, albeit only a little, has been made in this direction. This is totally untrue. There has been no such decision. There has been some tinkering at the edges of the collective farm system, but certainly no moves towards dissolving it, as Deng did. This is of course the real reason (not "international hostility" as 172 elsewhere insinuates) why the people of the DPRK are eating leaves and fleeing to China.
These changes can only be explained in two ways. Either 172 is very stupid (which I don't think), or he is deliberately seeking to make Kim Jong-Il appear to be less oppressive, obdurate and callous than he actually is (which I do think). And since this is only one of a number of examples I could give, it is evident that this is the whole purpose of his presence here. I point out that he is doing the same thing at Alexander Lukashenko, who seems to be another of his Most Admired Stalinoid Thugs.
I hope this explains what is going on to anyone masochistic enough to be following all this. Adam 02:53, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)
On the domestic front, Kim has given occasional signs that he favors economic reforms similar to those carried out in China by Deng Xiaoping, and on visits to China he has expressed admiration for China's economic progress. This does not appear to have translated into any real relaxation of the ecomomic situation at home, and specifically there are no signs of the decollectivisation of agriculture, which was the foundation of Deng's reforms.
"Extremism in the defence of liberty is no vice," and hard-lineness in the defence of truth isn't, either. Having said that, I have no problems with Gaz's paragraph. But if you compare the current version of the article with 172's last effort, you will see that 172's version is not only politically putrid, it is poorly structured as well, so it is not just a matter of paragraph by paragraph mediation. A choice has to be made between the two versions, although of course reasonable proposals to change my version can be debated. Adam 07:39, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Gosh, even I don't remember the '64 campaign! Eclecticology is entitled to his views (unlike the citizens of the DPRK). But anyone who thinks that 172's influence on this article has been "moderating" is deluding themselves. As I have shown above, his influence has been to gloss over the truth, not just once but systematically. My version has removed that gloss. If you think that makes me an agent of Bush, I doubt I can persuade you otherwise. As a social democrat (as well as a historian), I reject the view that opposing Bush requires us to make excuses for Stalinist dictators. Adam
I say no. This article needs to have a prominent disclaimer, stating that virtually all information on Kim Jong-Il comes from either:
So screw it. Unless you actually have first-hand knowledge of what's going on in the North, you're giving a biased view of Kim Jong-Il. The best we can do is throw up all the information that is disseminated about him, with a strong warning that little of it can be independently verified because of the insular nature of the DPRK. Now please, PLEASE stop arguing over whose sources are more accurate. -- Sekicho 05:23, Mar 6, 2004 (UTC)
We are not arguing over whose sources are more accurate. We are arguing about whether this is an encyclopaedia article or a piece of propaganda. In any case I disagree with Sekicho that it is not possible to know anything about the DPRK or the Kim family. Intelligent reading of the available sources enables us to write reasonably reliable articles on these subjects (as I have just done with Kim Jong-Nam), while acknowledging gaps in our knowledge. That is what historians are trained to do. I don't know what 172 has been trained to do. Adam 06:03, 6 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Eclecticology's language makes it clear that he is not really engaging in a debate about historical evidence: he is merely objecting to anyone telling the truth about his pet anti-imperialist heroes. I know from long experience that there is no point in arguing with Old Left shellbacks about these things. Perhaps if he had to eat grass and leaves like the Dear Leader's subjects he might see things differently. Adam 09:57, 6 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I think we have exhausted the possibilities of this discussion. When and if the article is unprotected we can resume combat. Adam 12:43, 6 Mar 2004 (UTC)
The article has now been unprotected, and I have done an edit to make the Korean names conform to what the Korean users tell me is the correct Wikipedia convention. I have also added the material about Kim's family that I learned while writing Kim Jong-nam and Kim Jong-chul, and done a general tidy-up. I hope the article can now be left alone for a while. I certainly have better things to do than argue about Kim Jong-il. However I will be watching, and I will revert any attempt to restalinise it. Adam 05:13, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)
In order to force a truce in this nasty edit war I have protected this page. Please work toward a compromise on this subject after the edit warriors on this page are able to cool off. I don't see how compromise can be accomplished when tempers are so high. With WikiLove, --mav 13:17, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)
There is no possibility of a compromise with 172. I have repeatedly offered to debate specific edits with him both here and at Alexander Lukashenko. He prefers just to resort to abuse, and you can see from his last effort. The page will just have to stay protected until he loses interest or is banned. Adam 13:23, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)
"War alone brings up to the highest tension all human energy and puts the stamp of nobility upon the peoples who have the courage to meet it. All other trials are substitutes, which never really put men into the position where they have to make the great decision—the alternative of life or death."
- Benito Mussolini. Adam Carr
I wish they would ban both of you and just let sane people write the damn article. -- Sekicho 13:33, Mar 7, 2004 (UTC)
Please no personal attacks. I removed some and will remove others (from both of you) later. --mav
Mav, I realise you are well-intentioned but I don't think you have any right to censor a talk page in that way. It is a record of the debate over this article and should be left intact so that anyone who interested can form an opinion.
Having said that, I am reasonably happy with the article as it now stands, so it can stay protected for ever as far as I am concerned. I have other things I want to work on. But as I said above, I will keep it under observation so if 172 tries to restalinise it when/if it is unprotected, I will return. Adam 14:11, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I'm restoring the personal attacks. I consider Adam's attacks a badge of honor. If he didn't belive that my charges of had any basis in reality, he'd welcome my attacks. 172 14:13, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Considering the relatively minor differences between Adam's and 172's versions, I don't see how edit summaries like "REVERTING ADAM CARR'S NAZI/FASCIST VANDALISM" are called for. Wouldn't "rv" be enough? I personally prefer Sekicho's last version except for one paragraph where 172's is better. It is POV to say "and by 2002 it was obvious that Kim did not intend adhering to this agreement" - North Korea says it was the U.S. who violated the agreement first. Also, it seems too early to say "Attempts by the Chinese government to mediate between the DPRK and the U.S. appeared to have failed." What's the evidence for that? --Wik 14:32, Mar 7, 2004 (UTC)
Wik, North Korea also says that everyone in the DPRK is happy and prosperous and loves the Dear Leader. NPOV does not mean regurgitating the propaganda of dictatorships as though it was fact. People who write for encyclopaedias are expected to make judgements about what is true and what is not, or what is the point of having encyclopadias?
Having said that, the article is already greatly improved over the propaganda tract it was before I edited it, so I am quite happy for Sekicho or someone else not involved to propose a compromise text for the paragraphs that are still in dispute.
Incidentally, I have made no personal attacks on 172 (I don't even know his name), and I have certainly not vandalised his User page or called him a Nazi, as he has done. I have called him an apologist for Stalinist regimes - which is not a personal attack but a political characterisation, and is undoubtedly true. I don't know why he bothers denying it. He should at least have the courage of his convictions. Adam 14:52, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)
You must be very easily browbeaten. "True proletarian revolutionaries are fearless." (Mao Zedong) Adam 15:15, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)
It is an attack if you call people Stalinist apologists (or "Old Left shellbacks" etc.) if they don't agree with your POV. You make judgements about what is true, but others may make different judgements. NPOV then means including both views with attribution. No one said that what the DPRK says should be included as fact, but the same goes for what the U.S. says, which you are all too willing to take at face value. --Wik 15:27, Mar 7, 2004 (UTC)
Guys, look at the current article. Take all the excerpts you disagree with, and list them in the spaces below, along with your reason for disagreement and what language you would rather use. This way, we can reach a compromise. -- Sekicho 15:51, Mar 7, 2004 (UTC)
As I have said, I am reasonably happy with the article as it stands, which includes nearly all of the edits I originally made. I am also thoroughly sick of this argument, and have other things I would rather be doing. I will make a few points in parting:
Adam 01:51, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Damn it. If I were a judge, I would simply place a restraining order on both of you, and forbid either of you from touching this article. Too bad we have an egalitarian system here. If both of you would agree to leave each other alone and refrain from editing this article, I think the rest of us can get back to doing what we want to do (write) rather than what the two of you apparently want to do (yell at each other). -- Sekicho 15:54, Mar 13, 2004 (UTC)
I would normally agree with you, but your disagreement with 172 has caused this entire article to be locked down. I'm a Korea specialist of sorts, and there's quite a bit that I would like to contribute to this article. Thanks to personal differences between you and somebody else, part of Wikipedia's functionality has been temporarily lost. So I respectfully ask you and 172 to take your differences elsewhere, perhaps a kickboxing ring, so that the rest of us can go back to doing what we want to do (write). -- Sekicho 08:37, Mar 14, 2004 (UTC)
Can someone update the link to the Korean alphabet to hangul, please? Kokiri 10:39, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Is that new picture copyrighted? ugen64 02:51, Mar 26, 2004 (UTC)
I'd be surprised if DPRK propaganda is copyright, in fact I doubt the DPRK is a party to the copyright convention. But I have reverted its use anyway since it is a cartoon, not an actual image of Kim. Adam 03:17, 26 Mar 2004 (UTC)
It can go in the article, provided it is captioned as being a propaganda cartoon, but the lead photo needs to be an actual image of Kim. This is a biographical article. Adam 03:35, 26 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Revert? Moi? Adam 06:50, 26 Mar 2004 (UTC)