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I am concerned about the current policy surrounding the notability of Olympians and Paralympians. Currently every athlete in the Olympics is considered notable but athletes in the Paralympics are only considered notable if they have won a medal. This is blatantly discriminatory. The Paralympics have a global audience with billions of views. The Rio 2016 Paralympics audience had 4.11 billion views in over 150 countries.[1][2] Paralympians have amazing stories and should not be discarded by Wikipedia simply because they have a disability. If we can have an article for every Olympian, including those who do not medal, we can have an article for every Paralympian. -TenorTwelve (talk) 01:39, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
Should WP:NOLYMPICS be altered so as to presume notability only for medalists (in all forms of the Games)? RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 00:41, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
People often forget that WP:N actually says an article can meet GNG or an SNG. This is the case where we should be willing to accept the SNG.
A topic is presumed to merit an article if: It meets either the general notability guideline (GNG) below, or the criteria outlined in a subject-specific notability guideline (SNG) listed in the box on the right;And this SNG is in the box to the right. I am mostly pointing out the contradiction of people arguing that bios have to meet WP:GNG when WP:N says that isn't true. -DJSasso (talk) 16:52, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
This is from the FAQs at the top of NSPORT. There isn't a contradiction with N when the SNG itself requires GNG. JoelleJay (talk) 20:46, 5 September 2021 (UTC)Q5: The second sentence in the guideline says "The article must provide reliable sources showing that the subject meets the general notability guideline or the sport specific criteria set forth below." Does this mean that the general notability guideline doesn't have to be met?
A5: No; as per Q1 and Q2, eventually sources must be provided showing that the general notability guideline is met. This sentence is just emphasizing that the article must always cite reliable sources to support a claim of meeting Wikipedia's notability standards, whether it is the criteria set by the sports-specific notability guidelines, or the general notability guideline.
"X is/was a fooian athlete who competed at the YYYY Olympic Games in this or that sport, finishing nth"because the only sources in existence are wide-ranging databases and results lists; that door needs closing in a substantial way. wjematherplease leave a message... 11:49, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
NSPORT specifically requires article subjects meet GNGThis is so false I suspect you haven't actually read NSPORT or N. To quote the big bold text at the top of NSPORT:
The article should provide reliable sources showing that the subject meets the general notability guideline or the sport specific criteria set forth below(emphasis original). You incorrectly interpret policy on the talk page of that policy, and yet you seem to think that making more and more restrictive rules will improve compliance? Call me suspicious.
forcing them to find SIGCOV in multiple IRS (so, like we do for basically every other bio for every other disciplineAgain, like I said to Rhododendrites below, a counter example is academics who only need to demonstrate national or international achivement in their field. Further, I sincerely doubt that creating more hurdles to writing about minority athletes will incentivize people to volunteer free labor to write about them. Autoconfirmed editors cannot create articles directly, and AfC is routinely backlogged by weeks. What seems like a minor inconvenience quickly turns into multiple additoinal barriers to article creation conveniently hidden behind the baseless assumption that increased difficulty will incentivize contribution.
Clearly subsequent editors are not picking up the slack in expanding existing stubsYou say "clearly" yet provide no evidence. While you assume people only care about their article creation count (an assumption again supported by no evidence) we have multiple successful initiatives that improve articles already created such as WP:Women in Green and the Wikipedia Cup.
if we actually want to address coverage of minorities in any meaningful way it will require the article creators put in the minimal effort of writing an encyclopedic entry.Again, it's not the only way, and we routinely have success getting new and established editors to improve existing content. I know because I've led multiple workshops to get new editors to improve existing content within my field (see User:WugapodesOutreach). Just because you cannot imagine a solution other than deleting articles and making it hard to create new ones doesn't mean it's the sole solution. — Wug·a·po·des 23:18, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
This guideline is used to help evaluate whether or not a sports person or sports league/organization (amateur or professional) is likely to meet the general notability guideline, and thus merit an article in Wikipedia.The second sentence is not describing the options for meeting notability but rather, as isaacl says, the requirements for meeting V: the article must demonstrate it is backed by RS and that it has a presumption of notability (most articles show this by directly meeting GNG; NSPORT offers the option to use an agreed-upon predictor of GNG based on verifiable achievement as a temporary, rebuttable stand-in). The second sentence is further clarified in FAQ Q5 (collapsed at the top of NSPORT):
Q5: The second sentence in the guideline says "The article must provide reliable sources showing that the subject meets the general notability guideline or the sport specific criteria set forth below." Does this mean that the general notability guideline doesn't have to be met?
A5: No; as per Q1 and Q2, eventually sources must be provided showing that the general notability guideline is met. This sentence is just emphasizing that the article must always cite reliable sources to support a claim of meeting Wikipedia's notability standards, whether it is the criteria set by the sports-specific notability guidelines, or the general notability guideline.
The result was delete. There is by now a relatively broad community consensus that participation in certain sporting events establishes a presumption of notability per the sport-specific notability guidelines, but that this is not enough to establish actual notability if, as here, no sources beyond participation records can be found at AfD.), Barkeep49 at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Mohammad_Laeeq, Randykitty at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Salman_Saeed_(2nd_nomination), and Black Kite at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Obaidullah_Sarwar. See also the discussion here.
it makes no sense to assume that someone who achieved national distinction and competed on the international stage will be ignored by reliable sources in all countries and languages- Speaking as someone who has achieved national distinctions and competed on an international stage in games that absolutely no reliable sources care about, I represent that remark. :) But that's not ultimately what this is. It's not about assuming they'll be ignored; it's declining to assume that they will all receive the requisite coverage. That seems like a meaningful difference. As I said below, if it is true that this presumption functions well as a shortcut indicating who has received such coverage, then that works for me. I'm just not yet convinced that it does in such an overwhelming majority of cases that we can create a rule based on it. I think that's a skepticism some others hold, too. Unfortunately, I had a busy week and have failed to follow through on my spot check, and as such have not !voted here. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 05:16, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
the gymnast P. Gussmann, who finished no better than 43rd in any individual event at the 1904 St. Louis Games, is automatically entitled to a Wikipedia page because he competed at the Olympicscompares to the general threshold of notability (e.g., Donna Strickland). Even as I hope there are some reference works to flesh out the Gussman article, I think it's fair to say that the threshold for biographical notability deserves to be more consistent across categories. And in that light, the proposal is completely reasonable. czar 02:44, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
The three Brazilian Olympic medals belong to Suzana Petersen, all bronze, at the Mexico Games, in the "exhibition" dispute in Mexico City, in women's, women's doubles and mixed doubles.JoelleJay (talk) 17:49, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
We require 'significant coverage' in reliable sources so that we can actually write a whole article, rather than half a paragraph or a definition of that topic. If only a few sentences could be written and supported by sources about the subject, that subject does not qualify for a separate page, but should instead be merged into an article about a larger topic or relevant list.—Bagumba (talk) 00:43, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
The inability of sports fans to follow simple guidelines is not a good reason to make the guidelines even simpler.
"Not getting a separate, stand-alone article" is not the same thing as "entirely excluded from Wikipedia".Canadian Paul raised the issue of WP:Systemic bias arising due to imperfect access to sources affecting countries unequally (if I understand their point correctly, in this scenario the Olympian in question does meet WP:GNG but we mistakenly think they don't because we cannot access the sources that contain WP:Significant coverage, and implementing the proposed change would mean that no article is created even though it in principle could be), and I think that's a valid point worth considering. But I'm not persuaded by it, and the main reason is this: we would still need to access those sources and the WP:Significant coverage found within them to write a proper article. I don't think an article that basically just says
"X is/was a fooian athlete who competed at the YYYY Olympic Games in this or that sport, finishing nth"(as Wjemather put it) ameliorates Wikipedia's systemic bias in any meaningful way, and I don't think sticking to just having entries in the appropriate list articles as described above would exacerbate systemic bias issues in such a case; Bagumba got it precisely right when they brought up that WP:WHYN says
We require "significant coverage" in reliable sources so that we can actually write a whole article, rather than half a paragraph or a definition of that topic. If only a few sentences could be written and supported by sources about the subject, that subject does not qualify for a separate page, but should instead be merged into an article about a larger topic or relevant list.TompaDompa (talk) 00:22, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
A number of participants in the discussion above, myself included, have suggested that there could be different levels of notability for more recent Olympians compared to older ones. Some of these people have !voted Yes, others have !voted No, but neither !vote really fits the proposal above (a yes !vote would imply only granting notability under NOLYMPICS to medalists, regardless of the era, while a no !vote would imply maintaining the status quo where all participants are notable regardless of the era, neither of which are supported by those !voters.) Therefore, I am creating this proposal to explicitly discuss applying notability to all participants after a certain date, and only to medalists beforehand. If you have a specific cutoff in mind, please specify that. Smartyllama (talk) 20:04, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
writing without an aim toward a long-term, historical view. — Wug·a·po·des 22:22, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
ALTERNATE SUGGESTION: if there's no information on George Athlete other than that he was an 86-year-old wolverine hurler for Fakelandia in the 1963 Olympics, then, rather than deleting the article on George Athlete, convert it into a redirect to the article on wolverine hurling at the 1963 Olympics - or perhaps even to an individual section of the article on wolverine hurling at the 1963 Olympics. Article history is retained and can easily be reaccessed if it turns out that there's tons of coverage of George just waiting to be scanned, OCR'd, and released from behind paywalls. DS (talk) 04:20, 4 September 2021 (UTC)"Wolverine hurlers" compete to see who can hurl an angry live wolverine the furthest.
there is longstanding consensus that scraping by on NFOOTBALL with one or two appearances is insufficient when GNG is failed so comprehensively. JoelleJay (talk) 01:00, 6 September 2021 (UTC)