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Addendum:
Concerns were raised below about my close and a number of editors expressed a wish for me to expand further upon it. I will say that I do not believe in explicitly saying "strong consensus" over just "consensus": if the result is the same such an adjective is redundant. I believe that each discussion merits a different bar upon which one must determine its consensus and a closer should specify only if that bar is met (alongside any explanation required). Due to the large number of articles this change would affect just a weak or simple consensus in favor of option 2 would not satisfy the bar needed to close in its favor. I found there was strong consensus in favor of option 2 and that the consensus met what I considered was the bar to find in its favor. Thus, "strong consensus" would be equal to saying "consensus". I will now describe the various issues that were explicitly raised with my closure before detailing the PAGs through which I determined this consensus. Firstly, I note that while Polling is not a substitute for discussion, when equally reasonable views of applicable policy contradict each other a closer must look to which view has the predominant number of responsible Wikipedians supporting it. Secondly, it is not necessary for editors to find the status quo violates any PAGs or is inherently bad for them to change it if they believe the change will result in a better guideline. Thirdly, as I mention above, I do not see enough merit in the claim that the RFC below is invalid. Comments that participants were misled about the previous discussion's consensus, that said discussion not being an RFC disqualifies this result, or the previous discussion was itself invalid are incorrect based on my reading of both discussions. I find that the partipants in this RFC believe both that the previous discussion's close is appropriate, that this RFC is a natural consequence of that discussion, and that this RFC is well-formed. The discussion essentially broke down to supporters of option 1 (use of comma), option 2 (use of space), and preserving the status quo. A negligible proportion of participants supported options 3 and 4 as their primary choice. I thus proceeded first to determine whether there was consensus in favor of options 1 or 2 or in favor of the status quo, as consensus in favor of the status quo here would override consensus in favor of a change in the previous discussion.Editors in favor of the status quo raised the point that parentheses are used for disambiguation and thus applicable to the article titles of television series. However, disambiguations are meant forwhen a potential article title is ambiguous. Editors against the status quo successfully argued that television series are discrete and sufficiently differentiated topics so as to not be ambiguous. Thus, I discounted the argument based on disambiguation. Editors in favor of the status quo also claimed those against were voting based on WP:ILIKEIT. I will remind editors that said essay refers to the relationship between subjective opinion and the inclusion of content on the wiki based on WP:Verifiability not to subjective voting on the style of Wikipedia. Not only this, but I did not find that arguments against the status quo were based mostly or partially on subjective preference. Furthermore, arguments that only mention an option being liked/disliked/preferred were not discarded just because: I discarded them iff I could not see a parallel to our criteria for article titles which includes "Naturalness". Finally, editors in favor of the status quo raised issues with the options presented. Editors against the status quo saw them as reasons why one option should be chosen over another, not as issues that prevented them from choosing any of them. Thus, this argument was not strong enough to determine a consensus in favor of the status quo. A number of arguments were presented in favor of option 1. These included having some punctuation being necessary for clarity purposes and readability. Similarly, a number of arguments were presented in favor of option 2. These included similar concerns for clarity, the use of italics to distinguish titles of television shows (see MOS:NAT), and a majority sources using no punctuation. Thus, option 1 supporters presented very similar, if weaker, arguments compared to option 2 supporters. This combined with the fact that option 2 supporters outnumbered option 1 supporters by over three times, I found strong consensus in favor of option 2.
Editors that feel so inclined are welcome to contest this close by appealing at WP:AN.
— ♠Ixtal ( T / C ) ⁂ Non nobis solum. ♠ 19:35, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
The status quo results in article title examples like these: The Simpsons (season 8) and Hawaii Five-0 (2010 TV series, season 10) and Dancing with the Stars (South Korean season 3).
There is a rough consensus (see the RfC a few thread above this one) to change away from this, but not yet a consensus on what to replace it with. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 21:48, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
The options are:
No. | Description | Example A | Example B | Example C |
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1 | Comma after series name | The Simpsons, season 8 | Hawaii Five-0 (2010 TV series), season 10 | Dancing with the Stars (South Korean TV series), season 3 |
2 | Space after series name | The Simpsons season 8 | Hawaii Five-0 (2010 TV series) season 10 | Dancing with the Stars (South Korean TV series) season 3 |
3 | Colon after series name | The Simpsons: season 8 | Hawaii Five-0 (2010 TV series): season 10 | Dancing with the Stars (South Korean TV series): season 3 |
4 | Dash after series name | The Simpsons – season 8 | Hawaii Five-0 (2010 TV series) – season 10 | Dancing with the Stars (South Korean TV series) – season 3 |
I suppose another option could be added, but I don't recall any others (dashes? maybe?) from the earlier discussion round. PS: This RfC was workshopped a bit in user-talk, with participants from the first RfC and its closer. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 21:48, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
Followup after additional research: A) There's been some debate about whether this is a form of disambiguation or a form of split long list, and the general conclusion is that it's the latter - "Soap (season 2)", in the original format, is not something named Soap that is an example of a season 2, but is part of a series of lists of episodes divided by season. Therefore, WP:Naming conventions (lists) applies, and it requires punctuation of one kind or another between main subject and sub-list identifier: Deprecated as ambiguous, hard to read ...: "List of foos A–K"
. The closer will thus need to weight more dubiously the arguments for option 2 (no punctuation) since they are against an established and applicable guideline but are based on aesthetic/simplicity preferences not any WP:IAR need to ignore a rule to objectively improve the encyclopedia.
B) Arguments for option 2 are also not accounting for accessibilty concerns: screen readers ignore italics, while at least some of them either announce uncommon punctuation like dashes and colons or simply pause at them as they do with commas, both behaviors being sufficiently helpful to the blind (a few will ignore them entirely, though this is generally considered a bug, and is likely to improve in the future). Thus, some form of punctuation helps many and hurts none. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 05:29, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
Thus, some form of punctuation helps many and hurts none.So, are you saying you would prefer the status quo over Option 2? InfiniteNexus (talk) 05:59, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
There appears to be a rough consensus, not exactly a rousing indication of strong support for such a change. But if a change happens, which again I'm not fully sure I support at this time, it should only be 2. There should be no punctation to indicate a season in the article's title. Joeyconnick laid out a good explanation above. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 00:36, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
the parenthetical standard [...] increase ambiguity? If you see an article titled Loki season 1, are there any other articles concerning Loki season 1 that the article would be ambiguous to? How would the title of that article be ambiguous? -- Alex_21 TALK 23:09, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
Toy Story 4is not equivalent to
Hawaii Five-0 2010 TV series, that's not the parentheticals that this RfC aims to remove, and that disambiguator is not for
other years' episodes of a show, it's for different shows that have the same name, as Hawaii Five-0 (2010 TV series) and Hawaii Five-O (1968 TV series) are. This RfC is exclusively about using parentheticals for seasons, which are not disambiguations. —El Millo (talk) 04:35, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
This WP:LOCALCON probably shouldn't change that.Perhaps season numbers are not quite the same as disambiguating between topics of the same name, but rather denoting subtopics. Wikipedia:Naming conventions (television) is a good example, and in fact, that is how many of our policies and guidelines are named. Wikipedia:Notability (films) isn't a notability guideline that is a film, it is a subtopic of the parent/general notability guideline page, WP:N; Wikipedia:Naming conventions (television) isn't a naming convention that is a television, it is a subtopic of the parent/general naming conventions page, WP:AT. MoS subtopic pages use a slash, but obviously that is not an option for articles in the mainspace. InfiniteNexus (talk) 05:07, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
(television)is a subtopic of the main Wikipedia:Article titles (which used to be called Wikipedia:Naming conventions). This is similar to the use of a slash in Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Film, but slashes are not an option in article space.
Look at the followup discussion, which now has many more participants then the first discussion, is absolutely astonishing how little support there is for the status quo.It has more participants because the previous one was not an RfC and was minimally advertised. There is "little support" for the status quo — by raw votes, at least, but we all know consensus is determined by the strength of blah blah blah — because people are perhaps not aware they can !vote for the status quo, or they were misled by the bold claim in the nom that "consensus" has already been reached for a change when it was in fact rough consensus based on ILIKEIT and contradictory arguments.
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (television) where (television) is a subtopic of the main Wikipedia:Article titles, are there any other widespread examples of this in the main namespace? I'd be interested in examining other similar examples of our current naming situation. -- Alex_21 TALK 07:15, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
Season X (Show Name)instead? Then that would most certainly be disambiguation, in which case parentheses are the most appropriate. InfiniteNexus (talk) 20:40, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
Season X of Show, with thousand of results appearing before the desired one, but in that case, a gigantic
Season 1disambiguation page would technically have to be created with all the first seasons of every show in existence. —El Millo (talk) 22:14, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
@Ixtal: You wrote that there is "consensus" for option 2, but you didn't explain why or how. What is the reason for changing a longstanding naming convention and mass-moving hundreds of articles? Given the size and magnitude of the proposal, this must be a strong consensus — not just a rough one — and a good reason to proceed, not simply for aesthetic tastes. As you should know, consensus is not determined by the number of raw votes but by the strength of the arguments presented; the strongest arguments are those grounded in policy and guidelines, while the weakest are those based upon the subjective opinions and preferences of editors.
I also disagree with your assessment regarding the validity of this RfC, which was based on a presumed consensus; the word "rough" was not added to the opening statement until late into the RfC, so over half of the initial !votes were likely misled by the false claim that there was already a consensus to move away from the current naming convention. Even the previous discussion, which was not an RfC, was built on the faulty premise of parentheses only being permissible for disambiguation, a claim not supported by any policy. There is no evidence the current naming convention violates any other PAGs, hinders readability, breaks accessibility, or otherwise produces a detrimental effect to readers. The fact that the previous close was not formally contested is irrelevant and does not imply community endorsement; silence is the weakest form of consensus.
InfiniteNexus (talk) 00:55, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
I don't think anyone was tricked in this RfCThe status quo was not even mentioned as an option in the opening statement, which many RfC !voters often only read. The fact that many users who "ranked" their preferences did not bother to include the status quo (not even as the last option) is telling, and in my opinion the RfC initiators should not have asserted that it had already been decided to move away from the status quo. InfiniteNexus (talk) 04:39, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
XXX (season 2) premiered on ...(I believe the wording we generally use is "the second season of XXX"), and that wouldn't change even if the articles were moved. There aren't very many sites that have "article titles" similar to ours, but the ones that do have no clear standard: Rotten Tomatoes uses "Season # – XXX" (and a colon in the tab header); IMDb has no clear style; Encyclopedia Britannica doesn't have articles on individual seasons; Metacritic just displays the season number (and a space in the tab header); Fandom wikis alternate between colons, parentheses, vertical bars, and spaces. There isn't a "right" way to do this, and those who support a change did not provide a rationale that doesn't boil down to WP:IJUSTLIKEIT — does the current approach breach policy? Does it make it harder on readers? Are there accessibility problems? Does it violate our MoS or AT? Is it confusing to readers? If the answer to these questions is "no, but some editors think it looks visually superior", then that does not merit a move of 1,000+ articles. InfiniteNexus (talk) 02:01, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
The following is a beginning list of all update that will need to follow:
Extended content
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This is only the beginning of a more comprehensive list; feel free to add any further updates. -- Alex_21 TALK 10:38, 8 March 2024 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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firstpart..' '..t..' '..lastpart
(I can give a detailed explanation as to why). Do we want to do this now (linking won't work for old-named categories anymore), or after all categories have been renamed (linking won't work for newly-named categories until then)? -- Alex_21 TALK 13:41, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
It's unfortunate if editors disagree with the new formattingWell, can't say I'm surprised. I continue to believe this change provides no benefit, and if anything, is detrimental to readers and worsens readability. I'm always reminded of the Vector 2022 debacle and how that turned out, but I no longer have the energy to continue pushing this. I'm glad to see more and more people (who likely weren't aware of the RfC since this is a project page) are coming forward with similar concerns. InfiniteNexus (talk) 07:15, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
I just wanted to note how joyful I am that we've now got rid of the brackets. This has been bugging me for twelve years! Morwen (talk) 10:50, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
Apologies for the lack of updates to #Technical updates. I've archived the above list and condensed it down to the following:
-- Alex_21 TALK 07:57, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
At the disambiguation page List of The Last of Us characters, there are three articles listed: Characters of The Last of Us, Characters of The Last of Us Part II, and Characters of The Last of Us (TV series). The last article comes under NCTV, and is therefore incorrectly named; per #List articles, it should be at List of The Last of Us (TV series) characters (which it was originally at, before being moved last month). Should that article be restored to a "List of" title? And if so, should the other two game character articles also be moved? -- Alex_21 TALK 02:29, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
Currently Top of the Pops (4th October 1973) is titled unlike every other episode article with the title and disambiguation being flipped. Any ideas how to better rename this? Gonnym (talk) 14:12, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
Hello, this is a notice that there is currently a requested move at Talk:Hawkeye (TV series)#Requested move 28 July 2024 in which it is being proposed to move it back to Hawkeye (1994 TV series) to provide further disambiguation from another series with the same title, which is currently located at Hawkeye (miniseries). I have brought up the TV naming conventions and WP:SMALLDETAILS, although other editors believe differently. Any comments there would be much appreciated! Trailblazer101 (talk) 15:23, 30 July 2024 (UTC)