I have worked on this article for the past two months, with the ultimate goal of certifying it as a Featured Article. I feel that the research and structure are solid, and I welcome all comments about what can be improved. Thanks in advance for your feedback. Scartol • Tok 18:32, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yet another fascinating biography of a radical! :) Here are my comments:
Prose and whatnot:
I'm uncomfortable with the fact that through so much of the early sections of the article, she is referred to as "Emmeline".
- Me too. I'm always unsure of how to handle this, since she obviously wasn't "Pankhurst" at that time. Do you think it's still fair to use "Pankhurst" even though she was Emmeline Goulden? Scartol • Tok 17:46, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Could we at least refer to her as "Goulden" or "Emmeline Goulden"? It is the informality of calling her by her first name that bothers me so much - especially in a feminist article! :) Awadewit (talk) 22:06, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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- I added "Goulden" after most of the "Emmeline"s, but I must say it feels awkward to me. I would point out for the sake of consistency that I used the earlier pattern – first names only when discussing childhood – with Chinua Achebe and .. well, okay, I didn't do it with Balzac. Point taken. Scartol • Tok 18:32, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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Her daughters were also active in the suffrage movement, but the family's relationships changed dramatically during Pankhurst's life. - This sentence leaves too much information out - the reason for the contrasting "but" clause is unclear.
- Yeah, that was messy. Changed to: "Her daughters worked closely with her in the suffrage movement, but over time a series of ideological disagreements drove the women apart." Scartol • Tok 17:46, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Her passionate work with the WSPU is recognized as a crucial element in the struggle for women's suffrage in Britain, although historians disagree if she did more to help or hinder public support for it. - Is "it" supposed to refer to the struggle for suffrage or suffrage itself? It is unclear.
After her husband died in 1898, Pankhurst founded an all-women organisation dedicated to "words, not deeds". - "all-women" sounds awkward - does "women's only" or "female" sound any better?
- I considered each of those, and found "all-women" to be the least unsightly (though still plenty unsightly, agreed) wording. "Female organisation" sounds like the organisation itself is female. "Women's only" sounds like a sign on a clubhouse in a tree. Scartol • Tok 17:46, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As the end of the war approached, the 1918 Representation of the People Act granted the vote to women over the age of 30. - I don't think these two clauses are well connected - what is the logic for having them in the same sentence?
- The logic is: I'm a moron. I guess I wanted to indicate that her wartime activity was ending (thus her ability to focus on other things), but I agree that it's awkward. I just took out the first part. Scartol • Tok 17:46, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Her father, Robert Goulden, came from a modest Manchester trading family with its own background of political activity. - "activity" or "activism"?
- Some of it (the examples I cite in the article) was activism, but some of it (which I didn't include, for purposes of length) was more activity: running for office, aiding political campaigns, etc. I felt like "activity" could incorporate both of them. I suppose we could use "activism", since I don't mention the non-activism activity, but it also seems more fair to the history to use "activity". Scartol • Tok 17:46, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Emmeline absorbed an appreciation of drama and theatrics from her father - This suggests that some of her protest actions later in life grew out of her appreciation for the theatrical effect that they would have, but this is not made explicitly clear. Is this correct? Could this be explained if it is correct?
- That is what the sources imply, but it's never a direct statement; just that she had a flair for appealing to public perception. Is it something that should be added here, do you think, or later on during the descriptions of WSPU activities? Scartol • Tok 17:46, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- If the sources don't make the connection, we can't, unfortunately. Perhaps you could make it a little clearer (if you have the sources) that she had a flair for public relations at other points in the article? Awadewit (talk) 22:06, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The Gouldens also involved their children in activities opposing injustice. - sounds a bit awkward
Active in the movement to end slavery, Robert Goulden welcomed American abolitionist Henry Ward Beecher when he visited Manchester. - Was he active in the movement to end slavery generally or specifically in the US?
Their mutual affection was powerful, if saddened by the death of his mother the following year. - doesn't quite make sense
- Yeah, I apparently tried to stick two different things together. I think one of the sources did this well, and I tried to do the same but failed to pull it off. Changed to: "Their mutual affection was powerful, but the couple's happiness was diminished by the death of his mother the following year." Scartol • Tok 17:46, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
During the 1880s, living at the Goulden cottage in Seedley, Emmeline Pankhurst tended to her husband and children, but still devoted time to political activities. - You might want to make it clearer that the couple is moving in with EP's parents, as that becomes crucial later on.
Soon afterwards Richard Pankhurst left the Liberal Party - Why did he leave the party?
- I'll need to check my sources, but I remember it being a rather complicated affair that I didn't want to get into in the article. Perhaps I was hoping no one would ask questions. =) Scartol • Tok 17:46, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
They moved to London the following year, where Richard pursued his political aspirations - What were these aspirations?
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- In 1888 Britain's first nationwide coalition of groups advocating women's right to vote, the National Society for Women's Suffrage (NSWS), split after a debate about whether or not to accept organisations affiliated with political parties. Pankhurst aligned herself with the Central National Society for Women's Suffrage, known as the Parliament Street Society after the location of its headquarters. Many members of the Society, however, felt that securing voting rights for single women and widows was a practical step along the path to full suffrage. - These three sentences don't quite follow. For example, which philosophy did the CNSWS follow? Did it want to associate with political groups or not? Why the "however" in the third sentence?
- Wow, what a mess. I feel bad for asking you to look at this article when there were obviously a number of glaring errors. I guess I hadn't looked at it with enough distance of my own. Sorry for that. I'll need to go back to the sources and reconstruct this paragraph. Scartol • Tok 17:46, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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Many members of the Society, however, felt that securing voting rights for single women and widows was a practical step along the path to full suffrage. - You might explain why many considered this a first step - I think some readers will miss the implication that married women "didn't need to vote" because they had a husband. :)
The family's finances in jeopardy, and Richard found himself traveling regularly to northwest England, where most of his clients were. - something is off here
- Changed to: "Pankhurst's shop never succeeded, and Richard had trouble attracting business in London. With the family's finances in jeopardy, Richard travelled regularly to northwest England..." Better? Scartol • Tok 17:46, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In addition to work on behalf of women's suffrage, she became active with the Women's Liberal Federation (WLF), an auxiliary of the Liberal Party working to overturn laws unfair to women. - Such as?
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She quickly grew disenchanted with the group's moderation, however, and found another outlet for her political energy - "moderation" is pretty vague here
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Although ILP meetings were eventually permitted, the episode caused health problems for Pankhurst and financial problems for their family - It is not clear how this was the case.
She observed various forms of gender discrimination when recording births and deaths, which reinforced her conviction that women needed the right to vote before their conditions could improve. - Could we give an example? This is a bit vague.
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During this time she also re-opened her store, with the hope that it would provide additional income for the family - Earlier, the article indicates the store was Richard's, so this "her store" is confusing.
- Really? The earlier sentence reads: "They moved to London the following year, where Richard pursued his political aspirations – unsuccessfully – and Pankhurst opened a small fabric shop called Emerson and Company." Should I clarify this earlier sentence? Or was it maybe a case of rapid reading? Scartol • Tok 18:14, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The group's early militancy took the form of public protest and specific focus. - a bit vague
- When a magistrate sentenced New and Leigh to two months' imprisonment, Pankhurst reminded the court of how various male political agitators had broken windows to win legal and civil rights throughout Britain's history. - Do we know to whom she compared them?
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- Still looking for this. I can't find names in the biographies, but there may be something specific in her autobiography (which I don't have with me at the moment) or in one of the books of speeches. I'll keep hunting and let you know what I find. Scartol • Tok 18:14, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In 1907 she closed her home in Manchester and began an itinerant lifestyle, moving from place to place as she spoke and marched for women's suffrage. - "closed her home" sounds strange, as if it were a business
In December of the same year, her sister Mary died. - This seems a bit random - was she close to the sister? We haven't heard anything about her, really.
- Mary is one of those people whose importance was a little hard to judge. She's in and out of the story, and I felt like it was just outside the ring of what made sense to include. I removed the reference to her death. Scartol • Tok 18:14, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
When it was defeated, Pankhurst led a protest march on 18 November of 300 women who tried to enter Parliament Square. - awkward wording
officers punched the marchers, twisted arms, and pulled on women's breasts in ways that caused pain and humiliation - what ways of pulling on women's breasts in the middle of a riot wouldn't cause pain and humiliation? This sounds a bit strange.
- Heh, agreed. One of the sources made a point (a rather extended point, if I recall) about exactly how the officers were grabbing women. But it makes sense to just drop that phrase. Scartol • Tok 18:14, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
She and assorted male escorts were targeted violently by police, resulting in violent scuffles as officers tried to detain Pankhurst - "male escorts" has a strange ring to it
Sylvia and Adela, meanwhile, did not share their mother's enthusiasm for the war. As committed pacifists, they rejected the WSPU's support for the government. Sylvia's socialist perspective convinced her that it was another example of capitalist oligarchs exploiting poor soldiers and workers. - The "it" in the second sentence has an unclear referent.
ome women criticised Pankhurst for offering relief to parents of children born out of wedlock, but she declared righteously that the welfare of children – whose suffering she had seen firsthand as a Poor Law Guardian – was her only concern. - Why "righteously"?
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Before long, however, she grew weary of the harsh Canadian winters, and her finances became dangerously meagre. - a bit awkward
- Yeah, reworded. I tend to get obtusely poetic as I reach the end of these things. I believe it's because my brain knows I'll be getting back to Balzac soon. =) I also tend to believe that people kind enough to review my Wikipedia work are also interested to hear random babbling about my state of mind while writing. It's a personal problem of mine; I'm working on it. Scartol • Tok 18:13, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Her biographers insist that the move was more complex; the various parties of the time offered various obstacles to the programme of women's empowerment and anti-communism she wished to advance. Joining the Conservative Party may have had as much to do with political expediency as with ideology. - Could this be explained in a bit more detail?
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Lead:
After reading the article, I felt that the lead did a bit of an injustice to the complexity of Pankhurst's life. Here are some ideas for what to add to the summary:
- She came from a politically-involved family
- Unequal childhood education
- He also supported her activities outside the home, and she quickly became involved with the Women's Franchise League - this sentence needs a phrase explaining what the WFL was
- When that organisation broke apart, she joined the Independent Labour Party through her friendship with socialist Keir Hardie. - this sentence needs a phrase explaining what the ILP was
- It might be worth repeating that the focus of the WSPU was suffrage in the third paragraph of the lead.
- A sentence on her work with the poor
- Perhaps a slight expansion on her switch to Conservatism
Images:
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Image:LloydGeorge.jpg - As far as I am aware, the "no known restrictions" bit is not enough to place something in the public domain. We have to have actual evidence that a photo was published before 1923 in the US or something like that. There is a statement on the image description page that this image comes from a 1920 pamphlet, but I can't verify that in any way.
Like always, this was a pleasure! Awadewit (talk) 13:30, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from Ealdgyth (talk · contribs)
- You said you wanted to know what to work on before taking to FAC, so I looked at the sourcing and referencing with that in mind. I reviewed the article's sources as I would at FAC. The sourcing looks good.
- Hope this helps. Please note that I don't watchlist Peer Reviews I've done. If you have a question about something, you'll have to drop a note on my talk page to get my attention. (My watchlist is already WAY too long, adding peer reviews would make things much worse.) 13:20, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
- Comments from Yllosubmarine
Embarrassingly, I have very little to nitpick about this article. It's well written and entirely engaging, so forgive my briefness.
- Not at all. I suppose it's a good thing that relatively few things stood out as needing attention. =) Scartol • Tok 19:58, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Although the Gouldens deliberated carefully... Although they supported women's suffrage... being VERY picky here, but these back to back "although"s are somewhat repetitive.
- They moved to London the following year, where Richard ran for election as a Member of Parliament – unsuccessfully – and Pankhurst opened a small fabric shop called Emerson and Company. Is there a reason why this simply cannot read "where Richard unsuccessfully ran for election..."?
- Christabel did not share her mother's fervour for political work, however, until she befriended the suffrage activists Esther Roper and Eva Gore-Booth. How about, "Until she befriended the suffrage activists Esther Roper and Eva Gore-Booth, Christabel did not share her mother's..."? Might be clearer.
- I actually prefer the original wording, since it continues the emphasis on Mrs. Pankhurst's relationship to Christabel. I worry that the alternative puts a sudden emphasis on Roper and Gore-Booth. Scartol • Tok 19:58, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Similar tensions later formed with Labour. Until party leaders made the vote for women a priority, however – and it became law – the WSPU vowed to continue its militant activism. Is "and it became law" necessary here? I think the sentence is powerful enough with it.
- I assume this should be "...without it"? =) If so, I agree; I suppose it was a case where I was trying to insert all the tiny tidbits lest I be accused of leaving something out. Fixed. Scartol • Tok 19:58, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- When it was defeated, Pankhurst led a protest march to Parliament Square on 18 November of 300 women "led 300 women in a protest march to..."?
- Adela had become a worry for Pankhurst as well, unemployed and unsure of her future. This reads almost like a tangent. Does "unemployed and unsure" apply to Adela or Pankhurst? If the former, perhaps: "Adela, unemployed and unsure of her future, had become a worry for Pankhurst as well"?
- I agree that it's something of a tangent, but I wanted to keep track of where the kids were at various stages of EP's life. I suppose it'll just have to stick out a bit. =) Scartol • Tok 19:58, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Pankhurst decided that Adela should move to Australia, and paid for the move. Move... move. Relocate?
Overall very good work; I was worried that areas may be too lengthy and/or descriptive, but I was glad to find it to be a rather engrossing read. A biography and a history lesson, all in one! It's a shame there aren't more images of her available, but I understand the difficulty in hunting such things down. Thanks for inviting me to read this in full, it made my lunch break a lot more interesting. :) María (habla conmigo) 17:58, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you kindly for your attention to detail. Much appreciated! Scartol • Tok 19:58, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
