The following discussion is an archived debate of the case of suspected sockpuppetry. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page. All edits should go to the talk page of this case. If you are seeing this page as a result of an attempt to open a new case of sockpuppetry of the same user, read this for detailed instructions.

User:PIO (3rd)

[edit]
Suspected sockpuppeteer

PIO (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

Suspected sockpuppets

Luigi 28 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)


Report submission by

--DIREKTOR (TALK) 23:08, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Evidence

User:PIO has been known to use multiple socks since his block (see Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/PIO) and had previously admitted to using many sockpuppets [1]. PIO's rotating IP is in the 151.67 to 70 range - evidence: PIO editing from his IP address arguing to be unblocked [2] [3] and this discussion User_talk:DIREKTOR#IP_151.67... during which 'Luigi' gets confused about whether he's 151.67 or 151.70 [4].
A previous SSP report by User:AlasdairGreen27 has been inconclusive due to lack of evidence as to User:Luigi 28's editing pattern (see Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/PIO (2nd)). Since then, however, the User's pattern has emerged as an one identical to User:PIO's:

However, even if we disregard the fact that his IP falls well within PIO's "range" (see [22]), the remaining evidence, coupled with User:Luigi 28's apparently strong convictions in the Dalmatian conflict (identical to PIO's) is more than conclusive in my view. The guy also decided to use what appears to be his his real-world name and info as some kind of "proof", though he could, of course, be simply lying. (Finally: thank you Alasdair, for formulating most of the evidence :)


My defence

My name is Luigi Vianelli (here you can read something; I'm an expert of Holocaust denial: [23][24][25]), I'm Italian and I speak a terrible English: I'm very sorry for that. My family comes from Losinj (Lussino). The family of my wife comes from Rijeka (Fiume). I read more than 300 books in four languages (Italian, French, English, German) about the Adriatic. This is my point of interest from more than 20 years.

a. Italia irredenta
b. Italian Mare Nostrum
c. Istrian exodus
d. Andrea Antico
e. Sanctorius
f. Roger Joseph Boscovich
g. Rijeka
h. Cres (town)
i. Krk
j. Mila Schon
k. Veli Losinj
l. Missoni
m. Dalmatian Italians
n. SMS Szent István
o. Gabriele d'Annunzio

a. Istrian exodus
Here the link from the personal PIO's page:[26]

I repeat: only one of my articles!

  1. When I wrote my first message: [User:AlasdairGreen27] wrote immediately a request for checkuser[27]. Only few minutes ago (in Italy are the 03.28 in the morning - Saturday 06.07.2008) I've seen that! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Luigi 28 (talk • contribs) 01:29, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Here:[28] User:AlasdairGreen27 wrote that I'm the banned User:PIO
  3. Here:[29] Alasdair insinuated that I'm the banned user Agazio/alias PIO: seem pretty conclusive to me that Agazio and Luigi 28 are one and the same
  4. Here:[30] Alasdair confirm that I'm PIO: I'm getting together an RFCU now
  5. Here: [31] Alasdair wrote that I'm the banned user PIO: they're indeed the same person
  6. Here: [32] User:DIREKTOR wrote that I'm the banned user PIO: they're the same person allright, the grammar mistakes are identical. When one listens to him long enough, one gets used to PIO's distinct "style" of expression. I have the PIO's style of expression!
  7. Here: [33] DIREKTOR wrote that I'm the banned user PIO, and call me Venetian irredentist radical. Venetian irredentist radical !!!
  8. Here:[34] ">DIREKTOR reverted my contribute without any explanation, except: reverting unreferenced info added by banned User:PIO
  9. Here:[35] DIREKTOR reverted for the second time my contribute, without any explanation.
  10. Here:[36] DIREKTOR reverted my contribute for the third time without any explanation, except: you're banned from editing remember?
  11. Here: [37] DIREKTOR wrote that I was another guy, named PIO: What are we going to do about PIO? He's a real fanatic, this one. Please, note the word fanatic, wich is for me, 'cause he thinks I'm PIO.
  12. Here: [38]User:AlasdairGreen27 is trying to insinuate that I'm that banned PIO
  13. Here: [39] DIREKTOR wrote that I'm the banned Pio: Yep, you're PIO alright
  14. Here: [40] DIREKTOR wrote that I'm the bannedo PIO
  15. Here: [41] Alasdair wrote another time that I'm PIO and others banned contributors.
  16. Here: [42] Alasdair insinuate that I'm PIO: If you click on the IP addresses, then at the user contributions screen click on WHOIS at the bottom left of the page, it tells us they are all the same and the others banned contributors.
  17. Here: [43] DIREKTOR wrote that I'm PIO: I know, you're Luigi. Your Wikipedia name was PIO, though...
  18. Here: [44] Alasdair insinuate that I'm another one: Yes, Luigi, you know who you are. Your problem is that everyone else also knows
  19. Here: [45] DIREKTOR insinuate that I'm that banned PIO
  20. Here: [46] DIREKTOR wrote that I'm PIO (hi PIO) and reverted my contribute without any explanation
  21. Here: [47] DIREKTOR reverted my contribute without any explanation
  22. Here: [48] DIREKTOR reverted my contribute without any explanation


"he admitted (here [49]) that he wrote this [50] and this [51], where he apparently got confused about which IP he was using. From this it follows that he also wrote this [52], and this [53], and this [54], and this [55], and all these [56][57]. There's also a remarkable similarity between this [58] and this [59] and this [60] where you were 'Nemo', and this [61] where you were Agazio."

This: [62]
and this: [63]
(the first two messages)
no more!

(see [64]), the remaining evidence, coupled with User:Luigi 28's apparently strong convictions in the Dalmatian conflict (identical to PIO's) is more than conclusive in my view.

Well, if you read carefully, all my words are a long quote from Francesco Bruni[65][66][67], professor of Italian Literature at the University of Venice. Here you can read my Bruni's quote, in the original link:[68]. Now: a very famous Italian professor is like User:PIO? A Venetian Irredentist? Please, if you understand the Italian language, read the Bruni's quote: the primary source is an old book of Giovambattista Giustiniani...

PIO, you misunderstood a lot of my points, and links... --DIREKTOR (TALK) 01:06, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The last provocation from User:DIREKTOR: I'm not that PIO! You misunderstood all my words, from the first one to the last one. You misunderstood me.--Luigi 28 (talk) 01:14, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Comments
What really bothers me is how did he not notice this? I mean, is he stating his non-involvement with articles based on a check of the History page, or simply on memory. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 16:28, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
My answer: I'm not User:PIO and I've read the edits of User:PIO, on the History page. I've not seen the edit of Dalmatian Italians. So:
It's simply and completely false that they are the same articles as User:PIO. The User:PIO from all the above articles, wrote only for:
a. Istrian exodus
b. Dalmatian Italians
Here the link from the personal PIO's page:[73]
I repeat: only two of my 15 articles (13.3%)!
--Luigi 28 (talk) 17:13, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Another one personal error: I wrote also for:
p. Nazario Sauro
So I have to repeat:
It's simply and completely false that they are the same articles as User:PIO. The User:PIO from all the above articles, wrote only for:
a. Istrian exodus
b. Dalmatian Italians
Here the link from the personal PIO's page:[74]
I repeat: only two of my 16 articles (12.5%)!
--Luigi 28 (talk) 17:13, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]


You reverted many time my edits[75][76][77][78][79][80][81][82][83][84], without read one word, only because you think that I'm that PIO. This is only a personal attack. You reverted my edits simply for a personal attack. I'm not a sockpuppet and your statement against me is completely false. All your words against me are personal attack: you wrote that "edits on virtually the same articles as User:PIO and his socks": this is false. You wrote about my error (one voice / two voices): "his non-involvement with articles based on a check of the History page, or simply on memory": this is a personal attack. I'm not PIO and I'm not a sockpuppet, and that's all.--Luigi 28 (talk) 17:46, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Calling you PIO is not a personal attack, if I want to call you Johnny I am perfectly within my rights to do so. Reverting your unsourced edits is also not a personal attack. Just WP:SHOUTing you're not a sock is not going to prove anything, PIO, if I created a sock I really wanted to keep I would do the same. Your identity is quite obvious for all the reasons plainly stated above. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 18:10, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You wrote: Reverting your unsourced edits is also not a personal attack.. This is completely false. For example: I wrote a list of the City Mayors of Rijeka[85], every one with one or two sources: you reverted[86]! Another example: I changed a part of the voice Istrian exodus with two sources[87]: you reverted[88]! You made a personal attack against me. Your words are false. You were punished another time for Edit warring:[89]--Luigi 28 (talk) 18:28, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Please read this WP:PA. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 18:47, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You were punished another time for Edit warring[90]: it's simply a fact.--Luigi 28 (talk) 18:54, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, a 24 hour block, while you on the other hand were banned completely. Ok, please stop with this nonsense. This page is intended for discussing your sockpuppeteering, not some imaginary policy breaches of yours. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 19:04, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm never banned, because I'm not a sockpuppet. This is another simply fact.--Luigi 28 (talk) 19:13, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You may or may not be a sock (the check user report will determine that) but you have now edited this report 53 times [91]. What's that all about? AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 21:01, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, because I make too many mistakes writing in English (so I'm trying to correct something) and I don't know how to edit the page: have a look to my edits! I'm new in Wikipedia, even if you do not believe: I learned the words sockpuppet and checkuser only one or two days ago. This is another fact! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Luigi 28 (talk • contribs) 21:17, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That makes perfect sense, PIO is a noob. Apparently this sock is the main attempt... --DIREKTOR (TALK) 21:31, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Luigi, you say "I'm new in Wikipedia", but unlike other newbies, you know enough about Wiki that your very first edit was a fact tag [92], and your second was a properly formatted external reference [93]. Come on buddy. Can we agree that you are not as new as all that? AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 21:45, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hey man: you made more or less the same with your second edit[94], and your guy User:DIREKTOR - the young student [name redacted] - create his own page the very second day of active Wiki-life, with a complicate tag! Boys: are you perhaps two socks?--Luigi 28 (talk) 22:41, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Luigi, now this is getting a little more serious. In line with WP:OUTING, you may not post personal information about any other person, an editor or not, on Wikipedia, outside of material relevant to an article. Leaving all other questions in this discussion aside, please bear this in mind. Thank you. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 22:57, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hey man: I read: Posting another person's personal information (...) is harassment, unless that editor voluntarily provides or links to such information himself or herself. I have read this name here:[link redacted]. Have you obliged User:DIREKTOR to write his name or he wrote voluntarily?--Luigi 28 (talk) 23:08, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That makes only perfect sense: you make a personal war against me, without interest to what I write. You reverted many times my edits[95][96][97][98][99][100][101][102][103][104], also fully documented and sourced, without any kind of explanation, only because you think I'm PIO.--Luigi 28 (talk) 21:39, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oh yeah, I always pick on new guys on Wikipedia. In fact, that's all I ever want to do with my time... --DIREKTOR (TALK) 21:59, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't care about other guys: I know that with me you are conducting a personal war, from my first edit.--Luigi 28 (talk) 22:21, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Right, boys I suggest we all keep up a dignified silence on this from now on. This discussion is leading nowhere. Hopefully the CU will be in fairly quickly. Then we'll see. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 22:06, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Addenda
Only today I've seen this:[105]. Th User:DIREKTOR "is subject to an editing restriction for one year. He is limited to one revert per page per week (excepting obvious vandalism), and is required to discuss any content reversions on the page's talk page. If he exceeds this limit or fails to discuss a content reversion, he may be blocked for the duration specified in the enforcement ruling below."
He reverted my edits 10 times in a week:[106][107][108][109][110][111][112][113][114][115], without any discussion on the page's talk page. He exceeded the limit!--Luigi 28 (talk) 07:46, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You're a sock of a banned user, your edits are "obvious vandalism". --DIREKTOR (TALK) 08:22, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
...'re already preparing your defence?--Luigi 28 (talk) 08:38, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Addenda 2

Today, User:DIREKTOR and USER:AlasdairGreen27, wrote that they reverted my edits, because: You are not aware perhaps that under WP:RSUE you should use English language sources wherever possible, because this is the English Wiki. Where no English language sources of the same quality exist it is permissible to use foreign language sources, but you should provide a translation of the relevant part of the text as a footnote. If you just use an Italian language source with no effort to find an English source or translation, especially in controversial articles such as Istrian exodus, there is a good chance this material may be challenged and removed.[116], and because your sources are biased. We can't allow you to simply add controversial info with sources of doubtful verifiability, and in another language.[117].
Please look for the voice Istrian exodus. This is my contribution: [118]. In the talk page I wrote a complete explanation of my change, in English with regular translations: [119].
I wrote also a list of City Mayors of Rijeka, completely sourced in Italian, Croatian, French and English:[120], Well:User:DIREKTOR reverted in 4 minutes:[121]!!
The question is: why User:DIREKTOR and USER:AlasdairGreen27, continue to lie about my edits?--Luigi 28 (talk) 13:42, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Luigi, I'm a little confused as to your belligerent post accusing me of lying, so please help me.
1. I did not write that I reverted your edits for the reason you state above.
2. I used Istrian exodus as an example, so if we are talking about that article, what about this [122]? There are also other examples from other articles, such as this [123] and this [124]. I'd be grateful if you could, in future, be a little more civil. Many thanks in advance. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 13:59, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well: your example was wrong: but you are a little confused. And I just wrote to you [125] that the voice Istrian Exodus has 32 notes: 11 in Croatian, Italian or Slovene (more than 33%). Why did you speak only about my edits (three notes), that here are completely sourced with regular translation in English? Look for the others editors, please, and change completely the voice! Make your work with another one voice: Dalmatia - for instance - has 10 notes: 6 only in Croatian. What do you think to do with that?--Luigi 28 (talk) 14:14, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]


OMG, PIO/Luigi_28 stop this nonsense! This page is NOT intended for a general discussion on your problems with Alasdair and me, please post only data that is relevant to your sockpuppeteering report. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 14:14, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The very first time you call me with my correct name! I hope that someone can read all the discussion here, and your personal war against me.--Luigi 28 (talk) 14:17, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Look this[126]. Incredible funny: he wrote an edit only to change my nickname: Luigi ---> PIO/Luigi!--Luigi 28 (talk) 17:12, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Addenda 3

User:AlasdairGreen27 wrote to me: I would ask you to strike through your comment accusing me of lying. I would also suggest that it may be better if you toned down the belligerent nature of your posts. Thank you in advance.[127]. After three hours, he re-wrote: I will ask you for the second time to strike out the accusation of lying[128].

So: When User:AlasdairGreen27 wrote that my edits were reverted, because: "You are not aware perhaps that under WP:RSUE you should use English language sources wherever possible, because this is the English Wiki. Where no English language sources of the same quality exist it is permissible to use foreign language sources, but you should provide a translation of the relevant part of the text as a footnote. If you just use an Italian language source with no effort to find an English source or translation, especially in controversial articles such as Istrian exodus, there is a good chance this material may be challenged and removed", while my edits of Istrian exodus were well sourced in English, he doesn't lie. It was simply a mistake. I'm sorry to wrote the word "lie", wich is my mistake. I apologize with User:AlasdairGreen27.--Luigi 28 (talk) 18:32, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Brief summary of the evidence, as requested at Administrators' noticeboard

1. PIO is an indefinitely blocked user [129] with a history of sockpuppetry. See User:Jxy and User:Agazio.

2. PIO's last known IPs were in the 151.67 range. See [130] [131] [132]

3. On 9 May User:DIREKTOR reverted edits at Foibe massacres and Istrian exodus by various IPs in PIO's range, sparking minor edit warring at both articles. See [133] and [134].

4. This caused me to point out to him on his talk page that he'd been dealing with PIO. See User_talk:DIREKTOR/Archive_5#IP_151.67...

5. This thread was joined by an IP signing himself 'Luigi' [135], who realised he was being discussed. In a highly revealing post, he notices that his IP has jumped from 151.67 to 151.70 [136] saying "OOps! I am not 151,67, but 151,70… however my message remains valid. Luigi".

6. When asked directly [137], Luigi confirmed that he was responsible for the posts at User_talk:DIREKTOR above [138].

7. There is thus a direct link between PIO and Luigi 28 via thir IPs, that a WHOIS check says are the same anyway.

8. Luigi, like PIO, sees Wikipedia not as an encyclopedia but as a battleground, almost exclusively editing articles about Istria and Dalmatia, removing references that Italians may have been born in Istria or Dalmatia [139][140][141], arguing vehemently [142][143] and so on.

AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 16:40, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Brief summary of my defence
  1. I don't know Pio nor Agazio
  2. From my firs edit User:AsalsdairGreen27 called for a check[144], only because he think I'm User:PIO. Obviously, that chek stated that There's not a lot of evidence here, to be honest, but all of these are actual Unlikely
  3. In my second edit[145] I added a neutral picture in the voiceRoger Joseph Boscovich : the Boscovich's signature. User:DIREKTOR reverted my edit only because he thik I'm that User:PIO, without any kind of explanation. He reverted that voice another one time, without any kind of explanation[146]
  4. So began a long series of insinuations about me, only regarding my supposed sockpuppering: User:DIREKTOR and User:AlasdairGreen27 harassed me saying every day the same thing: I'm User:PIO. Only some examples:[147][148][149][150][151][152]
  5. In the same time, User:DIREKTOR reverted all my edits. Only some examples: [153][154][155][156][157][158]
  6. Note that he reverted all my edits, including all the sourced edits (I wrote only very few edits without a source. Please, have a look for my edits)
  7. Before my registration in Wikipedia, I wrote all those:[159]. Only those!
  8. I've NEVER removed references that Italians may have been born in Istria or Dalmatia. I remove only two things (seven words) in ALL (I repeat: ALL) my edits:
  1. That Andrea Antico was of Croatian birth [160]. After some discussions, the User:Antandrus - who wrote more than 60% of the voice - stated - according with me - that I'm reporting what Martin Picker, the world expert on Antico, wrote in the New Grove. Beyond that I can only speculate. What was Antico's native language? I don't know, and it is probable no one knows. The best we can do is report where he was from: and since throughout his life he was "da Montona", and seems to have made a big deal of his origin, it is reasonable to do it the way Picker does. The first thirty years of his life are a blank'[161]. Now User:Antandrus changed the voice Andrea Antico (he changed the voice!), wich stated that Antico was of Istrian birth[162]. For me that's perfect (and many thanks to User:Antandrus)!
  2. That Agostino Straulino was Croatians of Italian descent[163]. He never was Croatian, never had the Croatian passport. If you want, I can send to you a complete history of Agostino Straulino, who during the war was also volunteer in a Italian Special Force.
  1. Regarding other famous people, I simply added (added: never removed):
  1. That Mila Schon was born in Trogir[164], and added her name between the famous Dalmatian Italians, like her brother Nino Nutrizio, founder of Italian newspaper La Notte: [165]
  2. That Ottavio Missoni was Mayor of Libero Comune di Zara in Esilio (an associations of Dalmatian Italians) and his mother named Teresa de' Vidovich[166]
That's all, regarding the Dalmatian Italians!
  1. In my last edit, I added that the territory of Kastav (Castua) doesn't were given to Italy after the WWI[167]. The User:DIREKTOR changed my voice, because he don't want Italian names in the voice[168]. Thera are other 25 Italian names in the voice: Monte Zaro, Monte Serpente, Monte Ghiro, Monte Magno, Monte Paradiso, Monte Rizzi, Monte Vidal, Monteserpo, Lungomare, Quarnero, Porta Gemina, Valle, Bagnole, Barbanna (it's a mistake: the Italian name is Barbana), Brioni, Fasana, Gallesano, Lisignano, Medolino, Pomero, Promontore, Sissano, Stignano, Altura, Dignano[169], but User:DIREKTOR erased only the single Italian name I added! Very strange...
  2. I think that User:DIREKTOR and User:AsalsdairGreen27 are conducting a personal war against me, only because they think I'm User:PIO
  3. User:DIREKTOR "is subject to an editing restriction for one year. He is limited to one revert per page per week (excepting obvious vandalism), and is required to discuss any content reversions on the page's talk page. If he exceeds this limit or fails to discuss a content reversion, he may be blocked for the duration specified in the enforcement ruling below."[170]. He reverted my edits more than ten times in very few days.
  4. I need an help from an Admin, 'cause they harassed me from days and days--151.70.102.18 (talk) 19:46, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry: I wasn't logged in!--Luigi 28 (talk) 19:51, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Conclusions

Hehe, Luigi forgetting to log in just gave the game away. The IP is almost the same as, and is geographically identical to, another PIO sock, the IP listed at Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/PIO, which obviously was PIO. Ergo, Luigi is PIO, ergo, he is indef blocked. Which I have done. Cheerio! Moreschi (talk) (debate) 18:58, 16 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Cheerio yourself, thanks for your time :) --DIREKTOR (TALK) 19:24, 16 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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