This peer review discussion has been closed.
My goal is to bring this article to FAC in approximately a month's time, but there's no rush, trust me. :) My main concerns aside from the run of the mill prose/MOS issues is comprehensiveness, especially in regards to the last few sections: "Fiction and poetry", etc., and "Legacy". What doesn't make sense, what is missing, what needs clarification? BTW, I am more than willing to do additional research if needed. Any and all suggestions are welcome. Thanks! María (habla conmigo) 02:14, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Finetooth comments: This is an excellent article that seems comprehensive. It is well-illustrated, neutral, stable, and appears to be factually accurate. I made quite a few low-level editorial changes as I went, and I have just three remaining comments or questions. (I originally intended to do a longish peer review and a bit of copyediting, but the reverse happened.)
- In the Dora Clark section, this sentence appears: "The next day, the officer brutally assaulted Clark in the presence of witness for having brought charges against him." Should this sentence say "a witness" or "witnesses" instead of "witness"? Did this happen in a public place? What does "brutally assaulted" mean?
- Doh, that's supposed to be "witnesses", so I've corrected it. He actually physically attacked her in public, knocking her down and striking her. Changed to: "The next day, the officer physically attacked Clark in the presence of witnesses..."
- In the "England and Spanish American War" section, you mention "Cuzco". The famous Cuzco is in Peru. I assume from the context that this one is in Cuba, but this needs to be made explicit.
- It would be good to have at least one more copyeditor go over this before you take it to FAC. I think some further prose tightening would be useful. It would be good to seek the advice of a copyeditor specializing in literature, biography, or literary criticism. I don't know enough about Crane criticism to say whether the last two sections are complete or not.
I hope you find the copyediting and these few comments helpful. If so, please consider reviewing another article, especially one from the backlog. If you have questions about my review or my edits, please send me a note or post it here. Finetooth (talk) 03:42, 2 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks so much! María (habla conmigo) 12:39, 2 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment by Sillyfolkboy: "A vigorous cross-examination took place that sought to portray Crane as a man of dubious morals" Any more info on this? Was it links to prostitutes/fraud/etc?
- Hi, Sillyfolkboy! Basically, the trial turned into an examination of Crane's affiliations with brothels and prostitutes in order to discredit his testimony. Crane himself stated that he frequented brothels for research purposes only, but of course the prosecution didn't go for it. Should the article go into this much detail, you think? María (habla conmigo) 17:01, 2 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Perhaps use a line like: "The prosecution stated that he frequented brothels but Crane claimed this was merely for research purposes" — think this presents it plainly and simply but still the reader can come to their own conclusions. :) Sillyfolkboy (talk) 05:28, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Okay, it now reads: "A vigorous cross-examination took place that sought to portray Crane as a man of dubious morals; while the prosecution proved that he frequented brothels, Crane claimed this was merely for research purposes." It makes much more sense, I think. Thanks! María (habla conmigo) 13:35, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from Ealdgyth (talk · contribs)
- You said you wanted to know what to work on before taking to FAC, so I looked at the sourcing and referencing with that in mind. I reviewed the article's sources as I would at FAC. The sourcing looks good.
- Hope this helps. Please note that I don't watchlist Peer Reviews I've done. If you have a question about something, you'll have to drop a note on my talk page to get my attention. (My watchlist is already WAY too long, adding peer reviews would make things much worse.) 15:52, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
Comments from Moni3 (talk · contribs)
- This is not a major overhaul, but general observations. I found it well-written technically and interesting. It is absolutely GA material.
- Right now, however, there's something missing that makes it FA material. You had it with Emily Dickinson. Something about her story was riveting and very compelling. Not so much that she was an oddball, but the way the material was presented. In Crane, so far, his bio reads like a retelling of major life events. In Dickinson's article, it read like a story that I couldn't put down. I'm not sure what that missing piece is, but perhaps central themes that are revisited throughout the biography? The farther reaching effects of so much death in his life? His intensity of emotion in writing? His fascination with poverty? How did these things come out in his books? (And how can people interested in Crane relate to his life?)
- I think I get what you're saying; Dickinson was so very fragile and emotive that it was really quite easy to connect everything in her biography to heartache and loss, which made for a good read, I agree. Crane, on the other hand, was driven and almost frantic to accomplish so much in such a short period of time. I'll try to make it more personable, however, perhaps with more quotes? I needed an excuse to read through some of his letters, so I'll use this as one!
- Why frantic to to accomplish? Was this his familiarity with death and the recurrence of illness, reminding him that his own was not far off? Was the fear of death not a major theme of his most famous work, The Red Badge of Courage? I don't think it's the nature of what the central theme is, but that it is a central theme that people can relate to. I'm not trying to push OR or SYNTH, but if the material is there, I think that's the missing hook. --Moni3 (talk) 14:12, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The problem is that no one knows why Crane tried to accomplish so much in so little time; that one letter describing his live fast, die young philosophy doesn't exist, unfortunately. Many biographers have theorized that he knew he would die (that he was well aware of his TB, which some think he contracted while very young) and that's why he was so crazy busy, but others admit the truth: we just don't know. What is certain, however, is that the guy was basically an unstoppable workaholic, and towards the end of his life he was more concerned with money troubles than he was with his health. I'm afraid I can't do much more to "hook" the readers with any looming theme of death unless it be OR or "he said, she said". María (habla conmigo) 14:24, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Minor suggestions: make some of the sections shorter. Where there's "Travels, fame and scandal" it could be "Travels and fame" and then "Scandal". Can you describe the kind of chaos that was typical in the Bowery? Conditions in that part of New York City aren't well-known anymore.
- I shortened a couple sections, but I'm not sure how to tackle "Life in New York"; it seems to flow together too well to split up, but if you have a suggestion, let me know! I added a little background about the Bowery, its rise and fall, etc. I'll see if I can find anything more about why he was so drawn to it.
- Restless in Jacksonville? Really? What a shocker...
Comments from Awadewit I think that the biography section is excellent, that the literature section needs to be beefed up a bit, and the images need serious help! :) I greatly enjoyed reading this and I'm sure it will do well at FAC after a little more work.
- I won't say anything about the lead, as I know that is currently under dispute. :)
Because of his parents' preoccupation, the young Stephen was raised primarily by his sister Agnes, who was 15 years his senior - The "preoccupation" part doesn't read quite right.
- I'm not convinced that the first part of the sentence is required at all; removed "Because... preoccupation" for the time being.
Dr. Crane died on February 16, 1880, at the age of 60. He was mourned by some 1,400 people, more than double the size of his congregation - I doubt we know the exact number of people who mourned him! This sentence needs to be recast to reflect that it is about a funeral.
- Changed to "He was mourned at his funeral by..."
He took to signing his name "Stephen T. Crane" because, not having a middle name like the other students, he tried "to win recognition as a regular fellow" - Are these two things connected?
- Yup. Changed to "Not having a middle name like the other students, he took to signing his name "Stephen T. Crane" in order "to win recognition as a regular fellow".
In the summer of 1888, Crane became his brother Townley's assistant in reporting about the New Jersey shore - Just the teensiest bit awkward.
- Changed to "In the summer of 1888, Crane became his brother Townley's assistant and reported on the New Jersey shore."
He began living as a full-time writer, making trips to New York and wandering into tenements. - "working as full-time writer", perhaps?
- Can you get an image of the original Maggie title page? That might be better than the written description.
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- The Black Riders was published by Copeland & Day shortly before his return to New York in May, but it received mostly criticism if not abuse for the poems' unusual style and use of free verse - What unusual style?
- Changed to "unconventional".
Crane, who initially went briefly to Philadelphia to escape the pressure of publicity, returned to New York to give testimony at Becker's trial despite advice given to him from Theodore Roosevelt, who was Police Commissioner at the time and a new acquaintance of Crane - First mention of Becker's name - perhaps mention earlier?
- Mentioned his full name (Charles Becker) in the previous paragraph.
Although The Red Badge of Courage had by this time gone through fourteen printings in the United States and six in England, Crane was running out of money. To make money - "Money" seems repetitious (Note: This kind of construction seems to occur several times in the article - a sort of jarring repetition.)
- Changed, but will read through to fix other repetitions.
- Stephen Crane's fiction is typically categorized as either Naturalism, Realism, Impressionism or a mixture of the three. - This seems more like a style than a genre to me. The genres would be novel, poetry, short story. This section also needs to be explained in more detail.
- The "Style and technique" section should be reorganized. What do you think about a generic organization? What about having a section on the novels (more could be included on Red Badge), a section on the short stories, a section on the poems, and a section on his newspaper reporting? There is too little about his works at the moment.
- The writing becomes repetitive in "Major themes".
It was not until Thomas Beer published his biography in 1923, which was then followed by editor Wilson Follett's The Work of Stephen Crane (1925–1927), that Crane's writing became available to a scholarly audience. - It was available before then, just not paid attention to, perhaps?
- Changed to "...that Crane's writing came to the attention of a scholarly audience."
At the time, Crane's reputation was enhanced by faithful support from friends such as Joseph Conrad, H. G. Wells and Ford Maddox Ford, all who either published recollections of their time with Crane or otherwise commented upon it openly - What is the "it"?
- Changed to "...all who either published recollections or commented upon their time with Crane."
John Berryman's 1950 biography of Crane established the author as an American classic - Authors aren't usually classics.
- Changed to "John Berryman's 1950 biography of Crane established him as an important American author."
All references need to have publication locations.
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- Several of the biographies (Stallman, for example) include it as being from 1888, although Davis says it was taken "about 1889". María (habla conmigo) 15:25, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Since the bulk of the bios says 1888, let us go with that. Can you add a citation for the date to the image description page? Awadewit (talk) 17:22, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Will do.
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- The source says the woman is "believed to be his wife" - do you have a more reliable source, like a biography, that says it is his wife? If so, we should include that information in the image description. Awadewit (talk) 14:34, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- They actually weren't married, so the source is incorrect anyway. :) Although most sources say it is Cora or is presumed to be her, only a couple voice doubts that it is/isn't. No one can seemingly prove who else it would be, however. Cora's 1960 biography by Gilkes says it is of her as does Stallman. I also have the word of the JPL, yo. María (habla conmigo) 15:25, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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- Image:Redbadgecover.jpg - There is no source for this image (in fact, there is no description at all). Please add all details.
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- Wertheim only has a picture of the first edition's title page. They do include the front cover of Crane's The Little Regiment, however, which was released a year later by the same publisher and has an identical cover design; same graphics, font, etc. María (habla conmigo) 17:50, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I hope these suggestions help. Awadewit (talk) 16:10, 9 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- They help a ton, thank you so much! I'm going to start working on them right now. María (habla conmigo) 12:13, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
