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I've added a lot of new material to the article, and I should like comments from Wiki-colleagues, with a view to getting it up to FAC standard. In particular, have I got the balance right between performance history and the internal goings-on of the company? All contributions gratefully received. Tim riley (talk) 11:05, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Well, since no-one else has yet taken up the baton, I'm going to start with a few general observations (I have a number of niggly little things that I'll keep for later):

I usually agree with G-Tell, and I agree with nearly all of his points below, but I must respectfully disagree on this. I don't think there is much more to say about these early periods. Why not present it all together. Sadler's Wells Opera redirects here, and no one can be confused, and the article is not terribly long. I see not reason to create a series of short, out-of-context spinoffs. I would suggest keeping it all together as is. -- Ssilvers (talk) 05:30, 5 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds good to me, except those two lists sound suspiciously like one, with an asterisk after the ones that are premieres. Also, could have a recordings article, perhaps? -- Ssilvers (talk) 05:30, 5 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ssilvers's view chimes with mine. The Gilbert book (apart from one ghastly clanger in saying that poor Stephen Arlen died of cancer of the sarcophagus) is a good, solid study of the company from its origins to three years ago. Pp. 1–214 deal with company at the Old Vic and Sadlers Wells Theatres, 215–265 with SWO at the Coliseum, and 266–585 with ENO. At a guesstimate I'd say the article is not so very far from the same sort of proportions. I'll see what I can do about a recordings section. There were some SW potted operas in the 60s, and the Goodall Meistersinger and Ring are on CD. I'm not sure about the Chandos opera-in-English recordings - not officially ENO recordings, I think, but I'll check. Tim riley (talk) 11:11, 5 June 2011 (UTC) Later: added. Tim riley (talk) 12:32, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Now shoot me down! --GuillaumeTell 18:14, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent, thank you! - much food for thought here. I'll ponder and report back. Tim riley (talk) 18:36, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Additional miscellaneous stuff (because I'm off to the opera at the other place tomorrow):

I'm just a yank, but I found the relationship with the theatre co to be an interesting part of the history. -- Ssilvers (talk) 05:30, 5 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Most grateful to Guillaume Tell and Ssilvers for these reviews. I should welcome the comments of any further reviewers on those points mentioned above where I seek a consensus view. Tim riley (talk) 11:11, 5 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Just a couple of comments for now. Overall, this is a mighty impressive job. It puts the mish-mashy articles on "the other place" (Royal Opera House and Royal Opera, London) to shame. Anyhow...

I'll pop 'round later with some more comments once I've a second pass through it. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 17:59, 5 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Both ideal suggestions – many thanks. I'll put them into effect at once and look forward to your second pass. Tim riley (talk) 18:30, 5 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comments by Wehwalt

Been busy, haven't had much time yet, but here are my comments on the lede. I'll add for the rest of it later on and possibly tomorrow.

Lede
  • "rough area". Possibly a bit too informal, although I could really go either way on it.
  • "ballet company, which evolved" This is ambiguous, it is uncertain if each fathered one, or whether the ballet company spawned all three. suggest "ballet company; these evolved".
  • "In 1968, the company moved to the London Coliseum in the heart of London. In 1974 it adopted the name English National Opera " Suggest merge sentences into one. It would smooth out the writing.
  • "several attempts" Really, I think "several proposals" would be better. Broader.
  • "and standard opera repertory," Omit. Perhaps text accidentally left in?

More later.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:53, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

All incorporated except for "rough" area. Would, say, "poor area" seem less informal? Looking forward to further comments, but no rush, of course. Tim riley (talk) 14:56, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
History
  • , including Il trovatore. It seems odd to give exactly one example.
It does indeed. Pruned. – Tim riley (talk) 09:02, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Vic-Wells (caption of image). This was the building before it was torn down in the 1920s, or the building that was built then?
Clarified. – Tim riley (talk) 09:02, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • You've slipped in the term Vic-Wells without defining it or really saying where it comes from.
Very good point. Now addressed. – Tim riley (talk) 09:02, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "was no longer incompatible with that of Sadler's Wells" I would state this in the positive, something like "was now compatible with that of Sadler's Wells.
Done. – Tim riley (talk) 09:02, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "dowdy" and "stodgy" You need a cite at the end of this sentence because of the quote.
Done. – Tim riley (talk) 09:02, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • " co-exist." At least to an American reader, this doesn't convey what you want it to. Perhaps something like "remain separate?
Right-ho. Done. – Tim riley (talk) 09:02, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Having survived that threat" A little POV! I'd omit the phrase entirely and pick up with the next words.
Done. – Tim riley (talk) 09:02, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "a vital" evidently not, it survived. Perhaps "important"?
Touché! Done. – Tim riley (talk) 09:02, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • to cover for him. Perhaps a bit informal.
Redrawn. – Tim riley (talk) 09:02, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Money continued to be a problem." What company has that not been true of? I'd strike the whole sentence. Also, the paragraph perhaps unfortunately covers two different areas, finance and dramatic production.
Addressed first point. Inclined to stick to the present wording as regards the second. – Tim riley (talk) 09:02, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Roseberry Avenue". You haven't called it that in a lo-ong time.
Now addressed. – Tim riley (talk) 09:02, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "were far less well provided " Awkward sentence, at the least change "were" to "had been"
Yes – a bloody awful sentence. Now redrawn. – Tim riley (talk) 09:02, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and practically destroy" perhaps "diminishing".
No, I think they really felt it would effectively end the company's presence on the London scene. – Tim riley (talk) 09:02, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "two interchangeable companies of equal standing" You may be assuming knowledge here. So what did the two companies do? One tour and one stay in Islington?
Just so. I've added a bit to that effect.
  • I would massage the Islington statistics into prose, it is jarring as it is.
Done.
  • "Its last performance at Rosebery Avenue" Did Islington Council change the spelling?
Thank you! (Why can one never spot one's own typos?)
  • The word "production" occurs three times in two sentences at the start of the Coliseum section.
Dealt with. – Tim riley (talk) 09:02, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • " Looking back at the first ten years at the Coliseum in 1978, " I would scrap the idea of looking backwards, simply say that According to Harewood, among the highlights of the first ten years at the Coliseum were ...
Okay. Done. – Tim riley (talk) 09:02, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • You seem to give more attention to discussing Mackerras than you do anyone else associated with the ENO. I suggest cutting back a bit.
Done. – Tim riley (talk) 09:02, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Mackerras was succeeded " I would add "as musical director", as you discuss multiple roles for Mackerras.
Done. – Tim riley (talk) 09:02, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Will finish tonight.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:23, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Resuming:
  • "Productions during the 1980s. " This sentence tries to do too much and should be split at one of the "and"s.
Done. – Tim riley (talk) 09:02, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In 1984 ENO ..." This sentence also must be split, you can't have multiple semicolons in a sentence.
Done. – Tim riley (talk) 09:02, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Rigoletto, directed by Miller, depicting the characters as mafiosi, was greeted with a mixture of enthusiasm and booing." I like the writing, but this part of the sentence needs a little more grammar.
Redrawn. – Tim riley (talk) 09:02, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Repertoire
  • "UK, the U.S. " The variant punctuation there looks odd. Haven't checked to see how consistent you are being in US vs U.S. and so forth.
I am aiming to follow the practice of each country. Since the 1970s full stops have not been much used in Britain for "UK", "BBC" etc, but it seems impolite to impose that convention on the U.S., where, as I understand it, periods are still the general rule in analogous abbreviations. – Tim riley (talk) 09:02, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "students and young professionals, and workshops, commissions, talks and debates": Too many ands in this sentence.
Amended. – Tim riley (talk) 09:02, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That's about it. Looks good!--Wehwalt (talk) 00:50, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you so much! These amendments improve the article substantially. – Tim riley (talk) 09:02, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Brianboulton comments: I have a range of small quibbles, mainly minor prose matters, but no real criticism of this first-class article.

Lead
Foundations
Vic-Wells
Sadler's Wells Opera
Coliseum
ENO
A couple of general points

Apologies if some of my points have been picked up by earlier reviewers. Brianboulton (talk) 17:42, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much indeed for these points. Hugely helpful. – Tim riley (talk) 09:02, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ruhrfisch comments - more to come - I looked on Flickr for a photo of an actual performance with a free license and found this - if you want I can upload it to Commons and perhaps crop it too. PR comments next. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 04:37, 10 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This looks very good to me - here are some nit-picky suggestions for improvement.

Hope this helps. If my comments are useful, please consider peer reviewing an article, especially one at Wikipedia:Peer review/backlog (which is how I found this article). I do not watch peer reviews, so if you have questions or comments, please contact me on my talk page. Yours, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 15:20, 10 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I uploaded it and then uploaded a cropped version at File:Deborah Warner's production of Handel's Messiah for the ENO.jpg Ruhrfisch ><>°° 00:12, 11 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you so much both for your comments, all of which I have acted on, and for the excellent Messiah pic. I am working (sandbox only at present) on the Messiah article, and may well reuse the picture there too. Warmest thanks! Tim riley (talk) 08:08, 11 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Now closing PR with warmest thanks to everyone who has contributed above. Tim riley (talk) 16:02, 18 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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