The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the miscellaneous page below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the discussion was: userfy to User:James500/Salami tactics . I'm closing this early because the discussion is starting to generate more heat than light, and a complaint has come in on WP:AN. Essentially, as pointed out by Beeblebrox, there is consensus that the page complies with WP:USERESSAY and enough people on both the "keep" and "delete" side of the argument accept that userfication can be an appropriate second choice. I don't see a consensus for deleting the redirect WP:SALAMI as redirects to user essays are considered acceptable (eg: WP:HNST, WP:KUDPUNG, WP:HITANDRUN); if anyone would like to challenge this, I suggest opening a discussion at WP:RFD. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 12:11, 9 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Salami tactics

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Wikipedia:Salami tactics (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

This essay appears to be an oblique attack on the concept that notability is not inherited and a direct attack on the integrity of AfD commentators. It hinges on a fundamental misinterpretation of the result of certain AfDs and also depends entirely on assuming bad faith of the AfD participants. This is definitely not suitable for the main Wikipedia essay space, and I wouldn't support userfication either because it is a WP:POLEMIC. Reyk YO! 13:30, 2 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • To be clear, if userfied the projectspace redirect should also be deleted. I thought this was obvious but for the discussion below. I see there are some other projectspace shortcuts to userspace, and I'd support ditching the lot of them. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 05:48, 9 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I see this term has been used a few times this year by the author, and at least once by another, and that it corresponds to a mainspace article salami tactics. The essay could use some work for comprehensibility, but it is a fine early version of something real. I think. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:25, 2 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Leaning “userfy”. The essay has strong single-author emotion and opinion, and the term has mostly been used by that author. This is not to say that the essay is invalid, but that it is primarily one person’s expression. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:58, 8 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • From WP:NOTINHERITED: notability is not inherited "up", from notable subordinate to parent, either.
From WP:SALAMI: One particular form of salami tactics consists of attempting to bring about the deletion of a parent topic by falsely pretending that its sub-topics are separate topics that are not part of the parent topic. In fact, coverage of a sub-topic is always coverage of its parent topic...
Also, a trout to the nominator for (a) not asking where James lives before nominating, and (b) not even asking about the range of temperatures James feels is comfy enough to unretire from Wikipedia and participate at MfD. Perhaps a change to WP:BEFORE is on order. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 18:42, 3 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
(1) That passage of NOTINHERITED is a manifest violation of ATD-M, which is policy. It certainly has no basis in anything that GNG actually says. If we were to apply that idea, every article on the project would be deleted. You could claim, for example, that every single thing George Washington did in his life was a separate event, he can't inherit notability from any of those events, therefore you cannot have a biography of him or anyone else. That type of reasoning is manifestly wrong. (2) Even if I was wrong about that, the passage of SALAMI you refer to is only a small part of the essay, which could be excised without affecting the core argument. (3) A modification to BEFORE is in order. Processes should not be run at times that are seriously inconvenient (and that is putting it mildly) to editors in a particular country. James500 (talk) 20:35, 3 July 2018 (UTC) On second thoughts the two essays are not talking about the same thing. NOTINHERITED is talking about a situation where only one sub-topic has coverage, and no other coverage exists. SALAMI is talking about WP:POKEMON, where there is coverage for each of more than one sub topic. James500 (talk) 20:42, 3 July 2018 (UTC) I'll give some further examples to try to explain this. NOTINHERITED is talking about a BIO1E type situation, whereas SALAMI is talking about a BIO2E (or more than 2E) type situation. We have never accepted 2E as a valid argument against notability, but you find editors advancing that argument anyway at AfD, and that is salami tactics. Likewise WP:CREATIVE allows "multiple periodical reviews" of creative works to contribute to the notability of their creator. But the salami-ists will go around trying to delete the articles on the creative works without merging the reviews to the creators' article, thereby concealing the existence of the reviews and the fact the creator satisfies CREATIVE. And the creator gets wrongly nominated because his reviews have been removed. We have similar problems with people ignoring the h index criteria of PROF. And that's all salami. James500 (talk) 23:46, 3 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
FTR (since my elaboration got caught in a collapse template further down the page, I give delete as my first choice because I think this page (which is a clear attack on a certain gorup of editors that is apparently small enough that all the referents are no doubt easily identifiable) would still violate WP:POLEMIC even as a userspace essay. I say userfy only because recent experience has taught me that the community has a very high tolerance when it comes to paranoid conspiracies and personal attacks in this particular topic area, as long as they stay within their authors' userspaces. And FTR, I don't consider myself a "deletionist", since to the best of my knowledge true "deletionists" are the ones who do things like this and this and would likely do the same to virtually all of my recently created articles if they were still a thing; so I guess that makes me an "inclusionist" as one who creates, and argues for the inclusion of, articles on "obscure" topics that would be easy targets for "deletionists". As far as I am concerned, though, this is only about the content of the page in question, not any broader disputes to which it might be related. Hijiri 88 (聖

やや) 08:15, 9 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It's nice to read such thoughtful and nuanced comments. Not sure though about deletionists being a small, easily identifiable group. At least from some inclusionist perspectives, deletionist mentality has been so successfully forced on the rest, that it's now reflected in the thinking of almost all active editors. I mentioned to you a while back that I sometimes like to raise my wiki morale by reading the contribs of two mutual acquaintances. Even those two ARS members have began to sometimes vote delete when a topic lacks coverage in RS. If my heart wasn't already broken, it would have caused intense anguish to see that. PS, I recently had cause to search for Kensai, and found we don't have an article on that topic! FeydHuxtable (talk) 11:33, 9 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Off-topic
Your presence here is a violation of WP:HOUND: we all know that you are conducting a vendetta because I criticised the block User:Dream Focus received because of what you provoked him into saying by wikihounding him. I have not been unretired for more than a few hours and you are back again, at the first venue I edit, and yet another XfD that I edited first. There is no point in doing this. Now the closing admin has been informed what you are up to, he is duty bound to accord your vote zero weight. That is how this process works. James500 (talk) 23:46, 3 July 2018 (UTC) And the substance of your vote is an ad hominem with zero merit. James500 (talk) 00:06, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Actually my "vendetta" if I have one is against the clear battleground mentality you have demonstrated in multiple interactions with me going back months before the block to which you prefer, and including your most recent pretending to be retired. As for "hounding": you have been warned multiple times about what happens to editors who make repeated bad-faith hounding accusations: you really need to stop. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:31, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The allegations you make are, as ever, entirely false from start to finish and that editor was blocked for socking. I have gone out of my way to avoid you as far as possible. If you are not following me, kindly explain how you got here. I think the chances of you arriving here by random chance are so small that you would have to be the unluckiest person in the history of the world for that to have happened, having regard to all the facts including your previous edits towards myself and others. James500 (talk) 02:05, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Bbb23: I don't have time to get the diffs, but you told me last year that it wouldn't make a difference if JoshuSasori's user page said he was banned for socking or for harassing me. The above is the second time in one week that someone has denied that the user was banned for harassing me, and this time at least is specifically because of the inaccurate notice on his userpage. What can be done? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:23, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I apologise in advance if I have made a mistake about why that editor was blocked. James500 (talk) 03:36, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Why am I explaining this? His block log is there for all to see. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 06:02, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The editor engaged in a month-long campaign of making my editing miserable by making bogus hounding accusations (in his case, insisting I was only feigning an interest in Japanese cinema and ignoring evidence to the contrary) and was ultimately blocked, with the immediate impetus for the blocking admin being that he threatened off-wiki harassment, but the constant on-wiki harassment, which mostly centered around calling me a hound and a troll, was the ultimate reason he wound up blocked. That was in January 2013. He then started socking, and his sock was blocked in February 2013 (CU was rejected because the sock confessed, but a few days later a CU happened to do a spontaneous check). After his sock was blocked, he carried out his off-wiki threat, for which he was sitebanned at the beginning of March 2013. He then continued both socking on-wiki and harassing me off-wiki, but the first time CU got involved was in August 2013, five months after his ban. I should not have to explain any of this, and the only reason I didn't argue further (in March 2017, I think) that the sock template on his page should be altered to be less misleading was that I was assured it wouldn't matter, but now I have you engaging in the same behaviour that led to his block, and you denying it because his user page includes a demonstrably false claim that he was blocked "for abusing multiple accounts". Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 06:02, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I have not done anything of the sort, and I will not communicate with you again. James500 (talk) 06:37, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reply to Headbomb: Actually, the claim is patently true. Excessive erroneous deletion of articles on notable topics brought the project to its knees by causing the editor retention disaster. After a slight improvement, the article creation rate has started falling again, and editor numbers are worryingly low, and if that trend continues indefinitely the project will actually collapse for want of editors. Salami tactics are perfectly capable of delivering the fatal killer blow. James500 (talk) 01:11, 7 July 2018 (UTC) Even if I was wrong about that, the particular claim could simply be removed or reduced in strength without affecting the core argument of the essay. James500 (talk) 01:54, 7 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Anyway, I've had enough of the abuse I've suffered here, and will now go back to building the encyclopedia. I'm confident that, lacking any more outside input or any more changing of !votes, the closer will come to the same conclusion regarding the consensus on this page that I have, and userfy.
Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:07, 8 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
That was just the worst of it. The whole thing, frankly, reads like a paranoid screed against the deletionist boogeyman. Might play well witht he few diehards at WP:ARS who still think in these kind of terms, but the rest of the community has mostly moved on from the idea that there si some great battle over notability that will make or break Wikipedia. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:15, 8 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • This essay is supposed to be about a form of invalid notability argument and possibly a form of disruptive behaviour, not particular editors. I can't understand who you think is being attacked. Please identify the wording you object to and I'll look at it and see if any improvements can be made. I have no axe to grind. James500 (talk) 11:12, 8 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The conspiratorial logic that says "the deletionists" are out to delete our George Washington article is an attack on other editors. It is the same type of attack you were accused of (and promised you would be more careful about making) here, and that allowed you to talk about "vandalism by way of [bad faith / malicious] AfD nomination" here. FTR, I agree with OID in theory, which is why deletion is still my first choice; the only reason userfication is acceptable to me is that I've become accustomed to content that violates WP:POLEMIC being accepted and even lauded in this particular topic area. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 11:39, 8 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
(1) The essay does not mention or refer to "deletionists" (whatever that really means). It does not suggest that "deletionists" are out to do anything. It says nothing about who engages in salami slicing. Nor does it say that anyone is out to delete George Washington. That example is hypothetical and it should be obvious that it is. If anyone particularly objects to the use of Washington's name, it could certainly be replaced with "a notable person" or something to that effect, as the name is not important. Likewise if you want to insert the words "this essay says nothing about deletionists" or something like that to state the obvious, I am not stopping you. Go for it. (2) I asked what OID thinks, and I would like to know what he thinks in his own words. (3) The diffs you cite do not disclose an "attack" on anyone, and I never promised to endorse salami slicing. Nor do they have any relevance to this MfD. James500 (talk) 13:14, 8 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
A ludicrous assertion. While the temperatures may not be especially impressive to those acclimatised to them, or indeed to individuals with affinity with endurance cultures, the heatwave is impacting hundreds of millions of people, especially in the northern hemisphere. 33 people having died from it in Ontario alone. In parts of Norway, it's been over 30 °C even at night, at my firm we've given project workers there extra time to complete deadlines. Just two examples from the top of my head,I'd guess there would be hundreds if one were to Google. (To be clear, I'm not saying I find it a strong AfD argument either, or agree with even mild censure for those starting xfd discussions during the heatwave; just saying James' plea for consideration is by no means a conduct issue.) FeydHuxtable (talk) 11:33, 9 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.


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