The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Dabomb87 22:05, 7 September 2010 [1].

Plymouth Argyle F.C. Player of the Year[edit]

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Nominator(s): Argyle 4 Life^talk 19:49, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have based this list on similar Featured Lists such as Ipswich Town F.C. Player of the Year and Watford F.C. Player of the Season, and I believe it now meets the criteria. Thanks. Argyle 4 Life^talk 19:49, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

~~Comment~~Support I supported last time and probably will again if there have been improvements. I do want to check a few things just to make sure everything is feature quality before making a !vote.

To start with

Dablinks is good.
http://toolserver.org/~dispenser/cgi-bin/webchecklinks.py?page=Plymouth_Argyle_F.C._Player_of_the_Year Checklinks] shows to suspicious as probable 404s but they check out. One did not work earlier even though it does now so the site might be having issues.
Alt viewer shows it is taken care of. I am under the impression that this was dropped from the criteria but just to make it better: Try adding something baout the first guy's hair or something to clarify that it is dated. Try adding a mention to Wotton like "with his arms raised triumphantly".Cptnono (talk) 05:24, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Any dashes are OK with the MoS.Cptnono (talk) 05:26, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've added some more alternative text to the lead image and Wotton's as suggested. Argyle 4 Life^talk 12:18, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Follow-up: I am happy to support this. It appears to be a perfectly fine list. I do not believe it needs to be mad into an article or merged but that is still a possibility if people feel strongly about it. As of right now, it meets (if not exceeds) the requirements. The lead is great and the list is thoroughly detailed. The first FL nom had some concerns with sources. These have been addressed. It does not over rely on primary sources. I was initially wary of Statto but the "about us" page convinced me otherwise.Cptnono (talk) 23:14, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Commment Sandman888 (talk) ^{Latest PR} 20:52, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This list is essentially a content fork of "List of Plymouth Argyle F.C. players", being a reduced duplicate of the information there. While the AfD of York was a keep, many of the keep-arguments concerned the lists FL status being a sufficient guarantee against 3.b, however this is not the case here, so it would take novel arguments as to why this content fork is acceptable. I defer my oppose until a case has been made.
"Plymouth Argyle Hall of Fame" delink Plymouth Argyle.

There is some crossover between the two but I don't believe that is a reason to fail/delete. The main "List of players" inclusion criteria is 100 appearances but I wanted to include POTY winners/Hall of Famers because they are undeniably notable. The award is only mentioned briefly so if a reader wondered how a winner is picked and this list didn't exist then they would be stuck. Merely adding it on to the bottom of the list is a non-starter for me because the "List of players" is long enough already and both will continue to grow as time progresses. WP:CF backs up my belief in the lead. Delinked name in Table key. Argyle 4 Life^talk 12:18, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Arguable that makes the case for removing the list and converting this into an article proper. A simple wikilink from the main list would then be sufficient. I simply fail to see what constitute a breach of 3.b if this does not, i.e. if a different lead is sufficient. Sandman888 (talk) ^{Latest PR} 00:09, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

- I'm not sure if I'm going to review this, due to a close association with this strand of lists. What I will say is that if an AfD survived solely on the grounds that WP:FOOTY editors didn't want to see an FL deleted, that would not be a valid close. If you believe that has happened, you should seek to clarify the decision at deletion review. --W F C-- 04:36, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments –

~~In the By player table, players are sorting by first name, not last.~~

Fixed. Not sure why that table wasn't using ((sortname)). Argyle 4 Life^talk 10:41, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Note E: "and the players article as appropriate thereafter." Wait a second. "players" needs an apostrophe in it, but that's not my real concern here. Does this mean that we're using Wikipedia articles as sources for this page? If so, I see no way that they can pass muster as reliable sources. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 03:18, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I should've taken that out a while ago because it isn't true. Each international player has a reference in the caps column. Argyle 4 Life^talk 10:41, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support – In my mind at least, an actual award article is valid, and this one meets all the standards. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 21:05, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose I'm reluctant to do this, but I sincerely believe this list can be incorporated into another, and thus it does not meet the criteria set forth in WP:FL?. I'm sorry it wasn't promoted last year, because then it would most likely have been a FL like the rest of them as the way to FL and back is asymmetrical. Sandman888 (talk) 14:38, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Satisfied that it passes 3b. The aforementioned AfD was closed as a clear keep, and the DRV was withdrawn by the nominator. Consensus clearly seems to be in favour of these lists. --W F C-- 14:56, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 16:32, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments - also satisfied that this is a legitimate stand-alone list, so that's out of the way. Caption - perhaps just be super clear - "Mariner, winner of the Player of the Year award in..."? Added. I know it's obvious to most of us, but I'm not sure your current source backs up your claim of "This is the more prestigious ..." I've included a reference to The Herald that describes it as the main award. One award is described without apostrophes, one is. Removed apostrophes. "the coveted award" - POV warning... Heh thats true. I saw it in another featured list of this type, but I've removed it now. Specific refs which relate to Dane's book, shouldn't you at least preserve the name of the book as per the general reference? I was going to until I saw a clever way to link the name, so when clicked it highlights the book in question. BBC refs have publication dates, so they should be included in the references (e.g. Ref 28). Added publication dates. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:54, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply] Thanks for the review. Argyle 4 Life^talk 07:10, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 16:32, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments - also satisfied that this is a legitimate stand-alone list, so that's out of the way.

Caption - perhaps just be super clear - "Mariner, winner of the Player of the Year award in..."?
- Added.
I know it's obvious to most of us, but I'm not sure your current source backs up your claim of "This is the more prestigious ..."
- I've included a reference to The Herald that describes it as the main award.
One award is described without apostrophes, one is.
- Removed apostrophes.
"the coveted award" - POV warning...
- Heh thats true. I saw it in another featured list of this type, but I've removed it now.
Specific refs which relate to Dane's book, shouldn't you at least preserve the name of the book as per the general reference?
- I was going to until I saw a clever way to link the name, so when clicked it highlights the book in question.
BBC refs have publication dates, so they should be included in the references (e.g. Ref 28).
- Added publication dates.

The Rambling Man (talk) 17:54, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the review. Argyle 4 Life^talk 07:10, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Struway2 (talk) 19:19, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Refs 8, 10, 12 should have authors Forgetting that is a bad habit of mine. Presume your division definitions are copied from your main Players list, hence the Third Div South which I'd guess isn't particularly appropriate. Might be tempted to include year ranges to indicate when the names changed. A reader unacquainted with the English league structure would wonder why Second Division was in two different rows. You're right about the Third Division South since it was long gone by the time the POTY was introduced. I like the year ranges. Added. Why up-to-date as at 22 August? i.e. after the first few games of the season. Do you intend to update after every match: if so, remember to update the accessdate from the appropriate reference(s) as well, at the moment you're referencing appearances on the 21st to a source last accessed a fortnight earlier... If it was me, given the award is only made once a season, I'd only update at the end of each season. I was going to update after every match but it is a alot of extra work, now that you mention it, so I've put it back to the end of the 2009–10 season. Soccerbase is a work published by Centurycomm, not a publisher. Added to the Soccerbase reference. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 11:04, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply] Thanks for the review. Created a few more player articles linked to the List of players I see. :) Argyle 4 Life^talk 12:03, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply] Comments* Now you've added interesting captions to the piccies you'll have to add sources for the facts you put in them (sorry). cheers, Struway2 (talk) 10:19, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply] I had a feeling it might. Done. Argyle 4 Life^talk 12:32, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply] Not sure that the Larrieu one verifies his being the longest-serving foreign player, unless I've missed it. It would verify his winning the award in his ninth season with the club, if that'd do. ~~Also, you've got a key for pre- and post-1965 playing positions, but aren't using those positions. Either change the positions in the list or disappear the key.~~ Ignore me, I was looking at the main players list at the time, sorry Struway2 (talk) 18:15, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Struway2 (talk) 19:19, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

*Refs 8, 10, 12 should have authors

- Forgetting that is a bad habit of mine.
Presume your division definitions are copied from your main Players list, hence the Third Div South which I'd guess isn't particularly appropriate. Might be tempted to include year ranges to indicate when the names changed. A reader unacquainted with the English league structure would wonder why Second Division was in two different rows.
- You're right about the Third Division South since it was long gone by the time the POTY was introduced. I like the year ranges. Added.
Why up-to-date as at 22 August? i.e. after the first few games of the season. Do you intend to update after every match: if so, remember to update the accessdate from the appropriate reference(s) as well, at the moment you're referencing appearances on the 21st to a source last accessed a fortnight earlier... If it was me, given the award is only made once a season, I'd only update at the end of each season.
- I was going to update after every match but it is a alot of extra work, now that you mention it, so I've put it back to the end of the 2009–10 season.
Soccerbase is a work published by Centurycomm, not a publisher.
- Added to the Soccerbase reference.

cheers, Struway2 (talk) 11:04, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the review. Created a few more player articles linked to the List of players I see. :) Argyle 4 Life^talk 12:03, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

Now you've added interesting captions to the piccies you'll have to add sources for the facts you put in them (sorry). cheers, Struway2 (talk) 10:19, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I had a feeling it might. Done. Argyle 4 Life^talk 12:32, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - Not sure that the Larrieu one verifies his being the longest-serving foreign player, unless I've missed it. It would verify his winning the award in his ninth season with the club, if that'd do.
~~Also, you've got a key for pre- and post-1965 playing positions, but aren't using those positions. Either change the positions in the list or disappear the key.~~ Ignore me, I was looking at the main players list at the time, sorry Struway2 (talk) 18:15, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Dabomb kindly asked me to address 3b. Thanks for that... Some thoughts:

Don't think the York City keep at AfD is all that relevant: the prevailing argument did seem to be appealing to the current FL criteria, when the criteria in force when that list was promoted didn't include any content fork-related requirement;
This article deals with the Plymouth Argyle F.C. Player of the Year award, an award which has been running for approaching fifty years. It has independent third-party notability in the various newspapers of the West Country, as can be seen on the internet nowadays, and there's no reason to doubt that similar coverage existed over the lifetime of the award. Therefore, it's a perfectly acceptable notable free-standing topic to spin out either from the main club article or from a list of players, because it can't be covered in the same detail in a more general article without giving it undue weight.
However, once this article has been spun out, I don't think there's any need to include those winners in the main players list who were there only as PotY winners. With only one list, it's currently acceptable to include clearly-defined extras. Once those extras are spun out into their own list which goes into extra detail about the award itself, I don't see any reason for those who don't qualify for the main list on appearances or as Hall of Fame members to be in it.

However (too much however) I will

Support this list, ~~assuming something suitable gets done about Larrieu's caption and/or reference, and the unused playing position key~~. If the RfC on 3b, and the other RfC on notability of lists, come to any conclusion, then this list and any others affected can be dealt with as appropriate. But as it stands, I'd have supported this list two weeks ago, before this matter was raised, and the criteria haven't changed in that two weeks. So I'll support it now. yours inconsistently, Struway2 (talk) 18:04, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

- Thanks for the extra feedback. I see you noticed my edit! I've changed Larrieu's caption because I couldn't find anywhere reliable that states he is our longest serving foreign player. The only players above him here come from the British Isles, but using Wikipedia for referencing purposes is generally frowned upon of course. Argyle 4 Life^talk 19:23, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Courcelles 21:34, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
*Comments "Argyle won their first Football League championship, and promotion to the second tier of English football for the first time, ten years later." Um, when? This sentence is missing a date reference. Added 1930. "This is the more prestigious of just two awards made by Plymouth Argyle itself" Just -> the. Just implies a POV about the number of awards they present. Changed. "As of 2010, only former striker Tommy Tynan has received the ~~annual~~ award for a third time." You've already told us it is presented each year three sentences prior. Removed. "of whom only England international Mariner has been Plymouth Argyle's Player of the Year twice." Come again? I'm not getting this sentence. Other than a seafarer, what is a Mariner here? Added his first name. "It's obvious by the number, that the apps is for their career... but what about goals? And is it for their entire career, or up to the season in which they won this trophy? Expanded note D to include all appearances and goals. Can the captions be made more, well, more interesting? They're all so repetitive at the moment. Fair point. I've had a go. "As of 2010, only former striker" link striker. Linked. Location and publisher for ref 17; "The Herald" is highly ambiguous. Added Plymouth. Courcelles 03:41, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply] Thanks for the review. Argyle 4 Life^talk 10:32, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Courcelles 21:34, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

*Comments

"Argyle won their first Football League championship, and promotion to the second tier of English football for the first time, ten years later." Um, when? This sentence is missing a date reference.

Added 1930.

"This is the more prestigious of just two awards made by Plymouth Argyle itself" Just -> the. Just implies a POV about the number of awards they present.

Changed.

"As of 2010, only former striker Tommy Tynan has received the ~~annual~~ award for a third time." You've already told us it is presented each year three sentences prior.

Removed.

"of whom only England international Mariner has been Plymouth Argyle's Player of the Year twice." Come again? I'm not getting this sentence. Other than a seafarer, what is a Mariner here?

Added his first name.

"It's obvious by the number, that the apps is for their career... but what about goals? And is it for their entire career, or up to the season in which they won this trophy?

Expanded note D to include all appearances and goals.

Can the captions be made more, well, more interesting? They're all so repetitive at the moment.

Fair point. I've had a go.

"As of 2010, only former striker" link striker.

Linked.

Location and publisher for ref 17; "The Herald" is highly ambiguous.

Added Plymouth.

Courcelles 03:41, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the review. Argyle 4 Life^talk 10:32, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support Quite honestly, I've never seen the argument that these lists fail 3b as having any merit. The award is notable in itself, making this fine as a stand-alone list. Courcelles 15:37, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.