The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Laser brain 16:08, 16 December 2010 [1].

South Park (season 13)[edit]

South Park (season 13) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): — Hunter Kahn and Nergaal 01:51, 2 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This article is part of the WikiProject South Park FT drive and is basically the culmination of a great amount of work that was ongoing while the season aired and afterward. It has passed a GAN review and a peer review, and is the anchor article for a GT. I believe it's ready for FA status. — Hunter Kahn 01:51, 2 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comments:

Subject to resolution of the above issues, sourcing and citation are OK. Brianboulton (talk) 19:27, 3 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Later sources comment: I've carried out another check, and the outstanding issues per the above appear to have been resolved satisfactorily. Some changes in ref numbers are slightly confusing for me, but I am pretty sure that all in now well on this front. Brianboulton (talk) 16:31, 14 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - File:Southparkseason13.jpg does not significantly increase my understanding thus failing wp:nfcc, so the article fails WP:FA Criteria 3 Fasach Nua (talk) 21:00, 3 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • The oppose stands, the 13th season of South Park existed before the DVD release, and this image adds little to the franchise or this article. Fasach Nua (talk) 20:32, 6 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Respectfully, Fasach Nua, I know you've blanketly opposed fair use images of these kind in past FA reviews, but I don't feel it's fair to do so in this case. Cover art and promotional material are considered acceptable under WP:FAIRUSE if a reasonable non-fair use rationale is provided. In this case, I've provided a rationale that has been agreed upon in a consensus discussion in previous FAC discussion for the exact same usage as is being used here. You've provided no direct feedback or policy-based rejection of the rationale I've added in response to your objection. In my opinion, it just seems like you don't like the use of these kind of images. If you're not going to provide any further specific feedback, I'm afraid I'll just have to take my chances with your opposition vote in place. — Hunter Kahn 21:11, 6 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • All that being said, I'd be happy to hear from others about whether they agree or disagree with the image's fair use rationale. — Hunter Kahn 21:12, 6 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is the only actually image of the show used in the article; a reader that is not well aware of the show would at least get a sense of who are the five characters in the last sentence of the first paragraph of the intro, and would also get a sense of what type of animation is used in the show. Nergaal (talk) 03:55, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've expanded the caption for the image. Nergaal (talk) 03:57, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Based on the comments by both Fasach and David below, I've removed the image. — Hunter Kahn 01:43, 15 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
oppose stricken Fasach Nua (talk) 19:45, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
On the prose side of things, it seems puzzling to me that critical commentary on the episode is outweighed by tabloid journalism on what celebrity X said about episode Y. There's not enough variety in the sources used for this, and I'm concerned about what appears to be statements that go beyond what sources say, for example "The incident received considerable press coverage and drew further attention to "Fishsticks", which Comedy Central re-broadcast for two straight hours on September 15, 2009" just isn't supported by what the IGN review says[7]. I'm also not comfortable with plot summaries unsourced outside of explicit plot sections, for example "Fatbeard" featured a song "Somalian Pirates, We", in which Cartman and his crew of pirates sang about Somalian piracy in the style of a sea shanty from the classic era of piracy", et al. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 00:57, 14 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In favor I suppose we should just list ourselves? SilverserenC 16:37, 30 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sure I thought going through the review and see what everybody said is ok, but self-listing is probably more clear. Nergaal (talk) 16:39, 30 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • As far as I can tell, there are five users who have voiced support for use of the image (Hunter Kahn, Nergaal, Bignole, Xeworlebi, Silversren) and two against it (Fasach Nua and David Fuchs). However, I'm torn on what to do about all this. On the one hand, I feel there is a fair use rationale for this image (as I've stated above) and I think its inclusion does increase readership of the article, plus I feel there is a WP:CONSENSUS developing for its inclusion. However, I don't think this should simply be a tally, and I also don't think it's at all fair or respectful to Fasach or David to ignore their comments simply because they are outnumbered. I also feel that this image issue alone shouldn't sink the FAC since (in my opinion) no other actionable items have been brought up in opposition to it. So, in trying to come up with a WP:COMPROMISE, I thought of two possible suggestions: 1) we could ask Fasach and David whether they feel the discussion here amounts to a majority WP:CONSENSUS and whether they would give their blessing for the image to be included, even if they personally harbor some disagreements. Or 2) let the article pass or fail (*) since we are nearly the end of the review cycle, and then take the image issue to Wikipedia:Non-free content review for further discussion about whether this image meets fair use rationale muster, and abide by the WP:CONSENSUS developed there. Thoughts? (I have asked Fasach and David ([8] and [9]) to read this suggestion and weigh in.) — Hunter Kahn 17:01, 30 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(*) - Note, personally, I feel if we go with option 2, and there remain no actionable oppose items beyond this image, that the article can still be passed even though there is an WP:NFR discussion ongoing. Since this would be the only issue, and since there would be a general agreement that we would abide by the decision there, I don't think there will be any instability problems with South Park (season 13). It would just be a matter of readding the image, or not, after that discussion is done. — Hunter Kahn 17:01, 30 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Withdraw - This is blatant case of Wikipedia:Forum_shopping, it is disrespectful to the FAC process, and the reviewers who have put time in to this candidacy. This article now fails WP:FA Criteria 1(e) and I wish my time had not been wasted here. Fasach Nua (talk) 00:18, 6 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The article hasn't been edited for six days, how is it not stable? SilverserenC 00:28, 6 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think he's suggesting that the article is not stable now because it remains an open question whether the image will be readded or not. However, since there is an agreement here that the participants of the FA will abide by the decision from the forum discussion, I don't think stability is a problem. The image will either be added, or it won't, and then that's that. And Fasach, regarding your comments, I'm sorry you feel that way. But I hope you understand that this was in no way meant to be disrespectful to you or the FAC, but rather an attempt to reconcile the conflicting opinions about the image and come to a reasonable WP:COMPROMISE. Which is why I suggested the forum idea that I did and brought it to the attention of both you and David (who obviously does not object to it himself) on your talk pages. If I wanted to be disrespectful, I could have just cited this FAC as a WP:CONSENSUS and gone ahead and added the image back... — Hunter Kahn 00:37, 6 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • If you want add the image back into the article, that is fine, there are both assessments made for it being included and for it being not included above and the delegate can weigh those assessments as to whether the article meets the FA Criteria. What I object to is getting the article passed in FAC and then immediately altering the content dramatically through a forum shopping back door, and thinking FA status can be retained. When you speak of consensus, you are simply referring to a consensus that exists in one place and at one point in time. The Consensus of the Wikipedia community is established over long periods of time is reflected in the organisation's policies. The most relevant one here being WP:NFCC, no-one here is arguing that the inclusion of this image meets policy, even the principal detractor of the images removal is stating the usage fails WP:NFCC 8. In the sense of a traditional encyclopedia it can be argued that the removal of the images reduces quality, however this is not a traditional encyclopedia, it is an encyclopedia with a m:mission and the removal of this image clearly furthers our mission and enhances the quality of this free encyclopedia. Fasach Nua (talk) 19:03, 7 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I see this withdrawal as a sign that you see consensus is against you and try as much as you can to sabotage it. Please don't incorrectly twist my comments so that they suit your point. Just because I don't struggle with the South Park concept, characters and animation type (because I watch the show) does absolutely not mean that the image fails WP:NFCC#8, by that logic no image can pass that criteria as someone already knows what the subject is (image of a car? someone known how it looks. Image of a person? someone knows how that person looks). This image is detrimental to understanding the characters, the animation etc. Just because I'm familiar with the subject of the article does not mean the image does not achieve this for other readers. Xeworlebi (talk) 19:37, 7 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • "If you want add the image back into the article, that is fine, there are both assessments made for it being included and for it being not included above and the delegate can weigh those assessments as to whether the article meets the FA Criteria. What I object to is getting the article passed in FAC and then immediately altering the content dramatically through a forum shopping back door, and thinking FA status can be retained." Look, all I've been trying to do is come to a compromise to reconcile the conflicting opinions about the photo license. I meant for this NFCR route would be more fruitful than simply restoring the photo, and David agreed. Perhaps the FA delegate can specify when they close this nomination whether they consider the NFCR route acceptable or not, and if not, whether the discussion here represents a reasonable WP:CONSENSUS that the fair use rationale is acceptable. (For the record, that proposed rationale can be read here.) In any event, I hope that the FA delegate acts soon, as I don't think this discussion is going to move any more forward, and only risks becoming uncivil if it continues much longer... — Hunter Kahn 01:19, 8 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Completely agree with you. I too have faced these issues, regarding BS like not having sufficient "rational" to have a cover for a single article. Its absurd. I'm taking a look now and I'll vote soon enough. Good luck!--CallMeNathan • Talk2Me 20:03, 8 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is nothing specific to season 13 in the image, the characters are the same as any other season, the animation style is the same as any other season, it really doesnt bring anything to the article. As for countering Masem's argument, it's nonsense and unworthy of response, and if he is serious about what he says, then he should seek a change in Wikipedia policy, and not expect FAC to follow the ideas swimming around in the back of their head. Fasach Nua (talk) 16:26, 11 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • But the fact remains that without an image displaying the animation, there is nothing to illustrate the show, the character or the show's distinctive visual style, which would be detrimental to the understanding for the reader of this article. Since this cover was chosen by the series producers to be representative of the thirteenth season, I feel it's the best candidate to provide that illustration in the context of the season. — Hunter Kahn 18:41, 11 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • If this is a serious concern perhaps you could merge all the serial articles into the main south park article, and achieve minimal use that way Fasach Nua (talk) 19:19, 11 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Well, I'm not sure if this is a serious suggestion or a sarcastic one, but I feel that would obviously raise a whole ton of other problems and would be inappropriate for a large amount of reasons. But in any event, I've said my peace (piece?) on the image fair use rationale. — Hunter Kahn 19:49, 11 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Support. Some of the text seems repetitive. For example,

The episode "Fishsticks" gained a particularly large amount of media attention,[64] with some critics declaring it one of the best episodes of the season.[64][67] In the episode, Jimmy wrote a joke that becomes a national sensation, while Cartman tried to steal the credit. Rapper Kanye West failed to understand the joke, but could not admit that he didn't get it because he believes himself to be a genius, a reference to West's perceived ego problem. Within one day of the episode's broadcast, West responded on his blog, claiming he enjoyed the episode but that it also hurt his feelings. The reaction generated significant media attention.[68][69]

Within a couple of sentences you have the phrases "gained a particularly large amount of media attention" and "generated significant media attention", about the same episode. In addition, in the next paragraph you write:

The day after "Fishsticks" aired, West wrote on his blog, "South Park murdered me last night and it's pretty damn funny. It hurts my feelings but what can you expect from South Park!"

However, in the previous paragraph (above) you've already mentioned West responding on his blog that he's feelings were hurt. Was there a reason for this? Jayjg (talk) 01:41, 15 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]


Additional note from FAC delegate: I recognize that this nomination received a good amount of substantive support. However, I don't feel there was consensus to promote due to unresolved opposition over fair use media and list status. --Andy Walsh (talk) 16:07, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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