The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 15:59, 1 September 2009 [1].

Rudolf Caracciola[edit]

Nominator(s): Apterygial 00:12, 10 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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My first attempt at writing about this oft-neglected era of motorsport. Thanks go to 4u1e for the comments and Malleus Fatuorum for the copyedit. If possible, I'd like to get the article on the main page for the 28th of September, the 50th anniversary of his death. Please note that one image (File:Caratsch.jpg) is lacking sourcing information, but SoWhy has contacted the original uploader (an admin on de.wiki) and we are currently awaiting a reply. Apterygial 00:12, 10 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:05, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Does this page make a case for reliability? Also, it's just a quote from someone, not original writing on the part of the website, and quoted from Neubauer's book (which I don't have access to). Apterygial 02:02, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'll leave this one out for other reviewers to decide for themselves. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:26, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not familiar with the website, but it does seem to include some respectable writers on its roster - former BBC Top Gear presenter Chris Goffey, for one. 4u1e (talk) 16:24, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I am satisfied with the reliability of the source. The list of contributors on the website includes numerous people from a defunct reliable TV program. Also, it's a quote, not a contentious fact which would require a HIGHLY reputable source. Royalbroil 12:44, 22 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The author of the piece being referenced, Ross Finlay, has had works published by the Reader's Digest and the Automobile Association amongst other journalist credits. I'm content that this reference is reliable. AlexJ (talk) 22:55, 22 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
-I'd prefer to see the following opinions removed or attributed to someone:
"Perhaps his only real disappointment in 1932"
"From here, he might have been able to see Seaman leave the track at the same corner"
"He has a reputation of a perfectionist, who very rarely had accidents or caused mechanical failures in his cars, who could deliver when needed regardless of the conditions."
-"the Clerk of the Course ordered Caracciola to cede the lead to Rosemeyer on the ninth lap." Why?
-1939 championship - perhaps mention who declared Lang champion, and why Muller has a claim. 4u1e (talk) 22:02, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think I've fixed all of these concerns, either by removing opinions or further citing them. On the other two points, I have added additional information. Apterygial 02:22, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm happy with your alterations. Cheers. 4u1e (talk) 16:27, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I changed one "He" to Caracciola to break it up a little. Apterygial 11:36, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Eubulides went through the alt text in the article an found no fault. It seems entirely logical to me that his name should be mentioned, as I've described him in the lead picture, so further descriptions would just get repetitive. Anyway, thanks for your review so far. Apterygial 11:36, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support I am satisfied that all of my concerns were addressed. Royalbroil 23:21, 20 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • I had a shot at it, but I don't really fancy my effort. Apterygial 00:51, 22 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do you mean something like "He transferred to a private clinic in Bologna, where his leg remained in plaster for six months."? Apterygial 23:54, 22 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please be specific and change your proposed sentence to say "... in a plaster cast for six months". Just saying plaster is too informal - I'd be wondering: a plaster what-huh??). Royalbroil 12:40, 23 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think that's a little harsh, Royal. 'In plaster' is perfectly normal (and formal) usage for a plaster cast, and very unlikely to be confused with a sticking plaster. 4u1e (talk) 14:17, 23 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is that what the suggestion is to change the sentence? I'll change it if need be, but I'm not able to spot an obvious problem there. Apterygial 22:15, 23 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sorry if you took my comment to be harsh or crude, certainly it was not my intention. I've never heard the usage "in plaster" to mean "in a plaster cast" - maybe it's not formal enough in American English but is fine in Australian and British English. It reads as way too informal to this American. I hope that you change it - if it reads as informal to part of the world, don't you want change it to something that equally as good to you and better in the world view? Royalbroil 02:08, 25 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have changed it. Looks like another one of those irritatingly common differences between British English (of which Australian English is a subset) and American English. I've never thought of "in plaster" as being either informal or ambiguous. Apterygial 07:21, 25 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Indeed, I have run into these problems many times! Royalbroil 00:44, 29 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments I like this article. Very cool. Not a big motor sports fan, but the old stuff is intriguing to me. In terms of scope and focus, this is terrific. I'm not going to comment on the sources, 'cause I don't know the literature well. Your images are appropriate, and well spaced, although I do think some of them could be bigger, because it is hard to see what they are in the thumb size. Writing I do know something about, and here are my comments on that. Please bear in mind these are niggling little comments, for the most part, relating to clarity, etc. I do think your use of commas is minimalist, and normally I'd use more, but my friends call me the "comma-kazi" (and I call them "comma-tose"). sb=should be

*...which ruled him out of racing for more than a year... sounds like it was a rule...how about eliminated him from racing....

*Mercedes-Benz racing team in 1934, with whom...sb with which....

ah....American vs Queen's English.

*Motorsport in Germany at the time, as in the rest of Europe, was an exclusive sport, mainly limited to the upper classes. redundant

  • well, I still disagree. How about eliminating this part from the first paragraph: " Like many early motor racing drivers, he was descended from aristocracy;" First, you don't have a cite for it...do we know how many others there were, and secondly, it's distracting. The important thing you're explaining here is how that Italian name ended up on a German. Auntieruth55 (talk) 17:36, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

*As the sport became more professional in the early 1920s, specialist drivers, like Caracciola, began to dominate it (missing)

*Need to write out AVUS the first time.

*Later in 1923, he was hired by Daimler-Motoren-Gesellschaft shouldn't the name be in English? piped link?

*Rosenberger lost control at the North Curve on the eighth lap when trying to pass a slower car, and crashed into the timekeepers' box, killing all three occupants, but Caracciola kept driving.... but? how about omitting the but (since you have the same structure in the next sentence but one). Caracciola kept driving. (and what happened to Rosenberger?)

*He was surprised, when he crossed the 20th and final lap, to have won the race. He wasn't surprised to be finish the race, certainly....?

then the sentence is awkward, then. could you clean it up a bit? Auntieruth55 (talk) 17:17, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Sticking my oar in again (sorry Ap!): "When he finished the 20th and final lap, he was surprised to find that he had won the race"? 4u1e (talk) 19:01, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No worries, 4u, I've changed it to your suggestion. It's always good to get more eyes in. Apterygial 00:01, 31 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

*...However, a lengthy pit stop, which took four and a half minutes to refuel his car, left him unable to recover the time, and he eventually finished third

how spectacular that was! Can you clean it up a bit to clarify it? To avoid the debris, C and C drove into a ditch; Chiron drove out the other end, but C hit a tree and was out of the race. Or something....
I've changed it to something like that. Apterygial 00:01, 31 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

*with ten laps remaining in the race Caracciola was so close he could see Nuvolari changing gears. It was in this manner that the race finished. awkward .....how about .... For the last ten laps of the race, C. was so close he could see Nuvolari changing gears.

*Avusrennen. translate, or explain.

other reviewers stumbled over this sentence, so it should be a clue that it's not universally accessible at first, or even second, read. I realize it's probably the difference between our colloquialisms, but you're saying his injuries remained in a cast. It gives me the giggles, like the rest of him wasn't in the cast, just his injuries. Obviously, you mean his injured parts, but they didn't remove the parts from the rest of him, so he remained in a cast too. How about his injured hip remained in a cast?
"where his leg remained in a plaster cast for six months"? 4u1e (talk) 19:07, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"he remained in a plaster cast" makes me giggle, imagining Rudi completely enveloped by plaster for six months... I appreciate your logic that other reviewers have had a problem with the sentence at the moment, but your suggestion just confuses me. He injured his thigh, not his hip. Perhaps "his injured leg remained in a plaster cast"? Apterygial 00:01, 31 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]


*Charlotte was able to take her husband back to Arosa, where the altitude and fresh air would aid his recovery. Charlotte took....?

*Alfred Neubauer, the Mercedes racing manager, travelled to the Caracciolas' chalet in Lugano in November with a view to signing him for the...I'm sure there was a great view at the chalet in Lugano, but probably he planned to sign him. I think "view to signing him" is probably slang?

*A visit from Chiron encouraged him otherwise, and despite his initial reservations he was persuaded to drive the lap of honour ... A visit from Chiron encouraged him to return to racing, and, despite his initial reservations, he was persuaded to drive the lap of honour (also, needs clarification, lap of honour?)

*Charlotte died when the party she was skiing with in the Swiss Alps was hit by an avalanche. .... Charlotte died in an avalanche in the Swiss Alps....? too much detail.

*.... (desert race)....from his crash in Monaco two years before, and that he was now back among the contenders

* Although the chassis of the W25 was shortened, and the engine was significantly upgraded to 4.74 litres, but the car proved inferior to the Type C developed by Auto Union

* Following the AVUS race, Caracciola, along with Rosemeyer, Nuvolari and Mercedes' new driver, Richard Seaman,

* ....but in a practice for the race, Caracciola was hit on the head by an object, believed to be a bird, and crashed into the south wall. The organisers had insisted he wear a tank driver's helmet, which saved his life; despite this precaution, he suffered a severe concussion and was in a coma for several days

you've managed to keep jargon out of the article, mostly, so I suggest you fix this in some way so it is not "common motorsport writing"....
"During a practice session..." Long, but prob the only way to define it. 4u1e (talk) 19:07, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Apterygial 00:01, 31 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

* Like most German racing drivers in Nazi Germany, Caracciola was a member of the NSKK.[117] The primary function of the NSKK was as a paramilitary organisation of the Nazi Party devoted to motor racing and motor cars, and during the Second World War it handled transport and supply logistics. Awkward. How about... Like most German racing drivers in Nazi Germany, Caracciola had joined the NSKK, a paramilitary organization of the NSDAP devoted to motor racing and motor cars; during the war, it handled transport and supply.

* ...despite strict currency controls his salary was paid... needs comma: and, despite strict currency controls, his salary...

*During the war, he continued to receive a pension from Daimler-Benz until 1942, when the firm ceased his payments under pressure from the Nazi party Confusing. The NS-regime pressured the DB to stop his pension payments in 1942

*Links: German Grand Prix, Italian Grand Prix, etc., all have pages, yet you link them to the year, not the page?

ah, so there will eventually be pages for each Grand Prix year? good to know. Auntieruth55 (talk) 17:17, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There should be pages now. There's one for every World Championship GP. 4u1e (talk) 19:07, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
SOrry - brain fade. There are pages for all post-1950 races, but not yet for all pre-1950 ones. 4u1e (talk) 10:33, 31 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There should be a page for each European Championship race (although there wasn't too many of them). Apterygial 21:38, 31 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

These are not major, in fact they are somewhat niggling details, but will help the overall readability, I think....Auntieruth55 (talk) 22:44, August 29, 2009

Thanks. Where I haven't changed according to your suggestion, I've attempted to explain why. Apterygial 04:43, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Apterygial, the things I still have questions/comments about are not crossed out, and I've spaced between them so you can find them more easily. Auntieruth55 (talk) 17:36, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think I've got them now, apart from that plaster one. Apterygial 00:01, 31 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

SUPPORT. This is a very interesting article to read, even for a non-motorsports fan. the writing is nicely done, easy to read, and it has a good tone. The links seem appropriate, and easy to follow. I cannot comment on the sources. The pictures work with the flow of the text. All in all, definitely ready for prime time. And Aptery is a delight to work with. I've learned a lot about Australian slang ;) For the sake of "transparency," I should say that the editor and I discussed this on my user talk page, and reached the conclusion that if half the English speaking world understood it, and the other half didn't, then it probably should be fixed so that all (or at least most) of the English speaking world understood it. The issue over the plaster cast was not just "plaster cast" but how the plaster cast was used (what was encased in it). Auntieruth55 (talk) 14:09, 31 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, it was good working with you. Apterygial 21:38, 31 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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