The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 23:50, 18 April 2009 [1].

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Nominator(s): Noble Story (talk • contributions)

Third time around for this article. Just a couple of things to consider before reviewing.

1. I've gone through the prose (again). If you find more mistakes, you'll have to excuse me while I bash my head against a wall.
2. A concern last FAC seemed to be that the article relied too much on his autobiography for sourcing. Well, I've now pared down those references from his book, so the only references used from his autobiography are describing his feeling or using quotes (which I think is the correct way to use that kind of source). Noble Story (talk • contributions) 07:53, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

image comment - Can you verify that the picture of the statue is not a derived work of a 3D copyrighted artwork per Template:Non-free 3D art Fasach Nua (talk) 09:32, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Um, I'm just wondering how I'm supposed to go about doing that?

This forum is to review if an article is of FA standard or not, if the validitity of components of an article are unverifiable then i would oppose promotion Fasach Nua (talk) 21:38, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You need to find out the copyright information for the statue. It was probably created recently enough to be under copyright still; therefore a photo of it is a derivative work of a copyrighted work, and therefore copyrighted as well. --Laser brain (talk) 22:54, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, it looks like that photo is either going to have to converted to fair use or removed from the article. Kaldari (talk) 23:21, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(to Fasach Nua) Please don't oppose until I have a chance to address what you say. For now, I've removed the image until I place fair-use rationale, and/or find another suitable image. Noble Story (talk • contributions) 01:23, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

All images appropriately licenced, oppose sticken Fasach Nua (talk) 14:57, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments - I've reviewed this at both previous FACs and read through most of it a few weeks ago. Therefore, I'm starting my review from where I left off, and the first comment comes from the year he came back to the NBA from retirement.

• Another sentence starting with "But". Not the first time I've seen that in this article.
• Off the court: "a company that has a net worth of 700 million." I don't understand why the number isn't just given as a dollar figure.
• Our NBA Countdown article says that the show also airs on ABC.
• HIV activism: I was confused by this: "publicized a risk of infection for everyone." I get what it's trying to say, but the wording can definitely be improved.
• Career achievements: "Several of his achievements in individual games also been named one of the top moments in the NBA." one>among.
• Rivalry with Larry Bird: "Ever since the Johnson's Michigan State squad...". Grammar error.
• Don't think "Hall-of-Famers" needs the hyphens.
• Current references 11 and 95 need en dashes for the page ranges.

That's all I found in that part of the article, but please note that I didn't read through all of it. That will come at a later time. Giants2008 (17-14) 14:29, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've gone through your points, but a few things:

• I think the NBA countdown article says it's on ABC because ESPN is a subsidary on ABC. I'm pretty sure it's shown on ESPN.
• "publicizing the risk of infection for everyone". I'm stuck on that, I can't think of a way to reword it.
• I've removed all the rest of the "but"s at the beginning of a sentence in the article. Noble Story (talk • contributions) 07:11, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Don't think there's anything wrong with using "but" at the beginning of sentences, but never mind... traditional grammar teachers will object. Chensiyuan (talk) 01:36, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Tech. Review

• Dabs and external links (based on the checker tools in the toolbox) are up to speed, as is the ref formatting (based on the WP:REFTOOLS script.)--Best, ₮RUCӨ 22:29, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support Oppose from Dabomb87 (talk · contribs) Much improved. Too important an article to bypass. It's not bad but there is some tightening and clarifying for readers not familiar with basketball. Many of my concerns are picky, but I want this article to the best that WP has to offer on basketball, especially considering the subject. Find someone not familiar with the subject and the article to copy-edit.

• "In Johnson's fifth year, he had another strong season of 17.6 points, 13.1 assists and 7.3 rebounds per game." Two things, both of which could attributed to personal preference:
  • "had" is such a weak verb, could you find something better?
  • "strong season" is subjective, how does one define that. Keep in mind that a strong season for Brian Scalabrine could be a down season for Kobe Bryant.
    • to be read in the context of the whole article. Chensiyuan (talk) 01:10, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• "where Johnson's Lakers"-->in which Johnson's Lakers
• I think it would be better to rename the header from "Battles with the Celtics (1983–87)" to "Battles against the Celtics (1983–87)", "with" could be interpreted to mean that he fought these battles on the same side as the Celtics
• "Johnson later termed the series as "the one championship we should have had but didn't get"."-->Johnson later described the series as "the one championship we should have had but didn't get".
• "In the 1984–85 NBA season, Johnson returned to form and averaged 18.3 points, 12.6 assists and 6.2 rebounds per game in the regular season." Just a paragraph earlier, you said that Johnson had a "strong season", but now you are saying he "returned to form", which implies a drop-off.
• "After advancing to the Western Conference Finals, however, the Lakers were unable to defeat Houston, who advanced to the Finals in five games." "however" used here is confusing, because Johnson's double-double in the regular season doesn't necessarily translate to playoff success.
• "For his feats, Johnson was awarded his third Finals MVP title" Is "For his feats" necessary? The comma after this phrase isn't necessary.
• "although a team had not successfully repeated their title since 1969." Confusing, maybe "although a team had not won consecutive titles since 1969."
• "36 points, 16 rebounds and 10 assists, and he led his team to a 108–105 win" Ellipsis. -Done
• "where they again faced the Pistons"-->in which they again faced the Pistons
• "In his retirement, Johnson engaged himself in writing a book on safer sex, running several businesses, working for NBC as a commentator, and touring Asia and Australia with a basketball team comprising former college and NBA players."-->During his retirement, Johnson wrote a book on safer sex, ran (operated?) several businesses, worked for NBC as a commentator, and toured Asia and Australia with a basketball team that comprised former college and NBA players.
• You use "year" and "season" interchangeably, and not always correctly. For example, "In Johnson's fifth year, he had another strong season of 17.6 points, 13.1 assists and 7.3 rebounds per game." A season usually encompasses parts of two years.
• "Johnson first fathered a son in 1981, when Andre Johnson was born to Melissa Mitchell.[75] In 1991, Johnson married Earlitha "Cookie" Kelly, with whom he had one son, Earvin III" So what happened to Johnson's relationship with Mitchell?
• "Johnson and Bird were first linked as rivals " "linked" is vague. Is it some destiny thing or a media-driven rivalry?
• Per WP:LAYOUT, I think the section "Books" should be "Works". -Done
• Is the external link to his foundation necessary?
• The Basketball-reference sources are formatted inconsistently. -Done Dabomb87 (talk) 22:01, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Dabomb87. I understand that you are busy, and that it is the nominator's responsibility to make sure the article is written brilliantly, but I think it would be extremely helpful if you can help copyedit the article. You are an amazing copyeditor and any help from you will be greatly appreciated.—Chris! _ct 23:38, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Blatant and overdone flattery notwithstanding, I'll see what I can do :) Dabomb87 (talk) 23:41, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I am just saying what I think is true. I don't mean to be flattery.—Chris! _ct 23:54, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In any case, thanks for the kind words. Dabomb87 (talk) 00:04, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Anyway. I got the rest of your comments, although I left the foundation link in, since I think it's a big part of what he does now. Noble Story (talk • contributions) 01:11, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I will continue to work on the article, I struck my oppose for now. Dabomb87 (talk) 01:22, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I did some cleanup work to help this one along. One issue I'll leave to the nominator was this glaring redundancy: "However, despite Abdul-Jabber's dominance, he had failed to win a championship with the Lakers, and Johnson was expected to help the Lakers win a championship. Giants2008 (17-14) 02:23, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ugh. I've removed it. Noble Story (talk • contributions) 06:21, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

How is copy-editing progessing? When it's done, please ping me so I can take another look at the article. Giants2008 (17-14) 00:35, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've already gone through the article several times, and I personally think that it's fine. But then, I thought that the last two times as well. Noble Story (talk • contributions) 10:23, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know if I can commit to the promised copy-editing. I said I would try to do some, but there are a lot of things I need to attend to this week. I will try my best, but don't expect too much. Dabomb87 (talk) 00:45, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

One more thing I saw during another sweep of the article: "Although it was rumored that Johnson was gay or bisexual, he denied both charges." I'm a little uncomfortable with this because the text makes it sound like homosexuality is some kind of crime. Giants2008 (17-14) 01:37, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ah. I've changed it. Noble Story (talk • contributions) 03:52, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(indent) Lean support - Since there has been no almost no activity here for about two weeks, I'm going to follow my instincts and take a stand. The article looks better than it did the other two times it was here, and the main complaints from past FACs seem to have been addressed. After the sweep I mentioned above, I'm quite satisfied with the quality of the page overall. I'm going to leave several more comments here before striking the lean above (I swear this is it from me):

• The many Basketball-Reference links shouldn't be in italics, which are forced by the work parameter in the cite templates. Perhaps consider putting them both in the publisher parameter.

Based on my experience writing FLs, I've been told to have Basketball-Reference in the work parameter and Sports Reference LLC in the publisher parameter. Now you say you want Basketball-Reference in the publisher parameter, so which one is correct?—Chris! _ct 03:44, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I always thought the works sections was only for newspapers, magazines, etc. Noble Story (talk • contributions) 07:57, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ref publishers should be in italics only if they are printed publications. The work parameter of the template forces italics, so I'm suggesting moving what's in the work parameter (Basketball-Reference) as a work-around. If you want both that and Sports Reference LLC in that parameter, that would be just fine. Giants2008 (17-14) 23:14, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• The Olympic medal record and jersey photo are both pushing edit links to the left, a condition known as edit bunching. Possible remedies include moving the medal record up a paragraph and moving the photo, perhaps down to the Career achievements section.

I fix this, I think.—Chris! _ct 03:50, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Would be nice to have ISBN numbers for The Winner Within and Chuck Taylor, Converse All Star.

Got em. Noble Story (talk • contributions) 07:57, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Really picky, but while I'm here, should the various abbreviations in the Works section be spelled out? I'm talking about the states etc., though I think F. Watts is fine. Giants2008 (17-14) 03:28, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed—Chris! _ct 03:54, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Support -- am highly familiar with this article because I collaborated with other editors for its GA nom and first FAC run. Have not touched it much since then but I think others have slowly beaten it into shape. Chensiyuan (talk) 16:20, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• I recommend another copy-editing pass to ensure everything has been ironed out. I'm honestly not fond of this part: "I practiced all day," he later said. "I dribbled to the store with my right hand and back with my left. Then I slept with my basketball." — it kind of reminds me of something we'd see in a sports column. Perhaps you could paraphrase? There's also some...subjective redundancies, such as "In what is still the most-watched college basketball game" and "Previously, HIV had been associated with drug addicts and homosexuals,". Nice, straight-ahead sports article. — Deckiller 03:35, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I hope that those examples at least have been edited satisfactorily. Do you have any other pressing examples, or has the copy-editing really finally finished? Noble Story (talk • contributions) 12:59, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment—article's prose is quite good; it's definitely nothing to oppose over. The article does a nice job in noting Johnson's on- and off-court significance. — Deckiller 20:04, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment It's close, but some more copy-editing is still required. In the very first paragraph, for instance, we have this: Johnson "returned to win the MVP of the 1992 All-Star Game." One doesn't "win" the Most Valuable Player; one "is" (or some other form of the verb to be) MVP, or one wins the MVP Award. I see other small issues like this scattered around the article—it needs another ce pass to meet prose requirements. I'm happy to assist, if you like.

Could you help ? I mean, any assistance I would much appreciate. Noble Story (talk • contributions) 00:42, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• One substantive request: proper sourcing for the height and weight information in the infobox. He is currently listed at 6-foot-9, 255 pounds. What's the source for that? Basketball-reference.com, which is used for his NBA stats, lists him at 6-foot-8, 215 pounds. I can believe he's put on 40 pounds since his retirement (though, actually, why should we be interested at all in his retirement weight?--I would either cut that or list his playing weight, identified as such); has he actually grown an inch?!—DCGeist (talk) 21:07, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

His NBA bio lists him as the measurements given in the article. But I've just changed it to include his playing height and weight (no idea why his height is different). Noble Story (talk • contributions) 00:42, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Given that you have two authoritative sources giving different figures, it's fine to choose one as this is an infobox (in running text, we'd want to spell out the disagreement). But you should probably put notes next to both height and weight in which you directly cite the source and mention the competing source and figure. —DCGeist (talk) 19:17, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I looked around, and it seems that many more sources list Johnson as 6-ft-9 than 6-ft-8; I see that 6-ft-9 is also the height that you've gone with in the running text of the article (in the Career achievements section). Finally, I found a published source that gives exactly the same height and weight figures as NBA.com. Given that, I've restored the figures you had before. I've also included footnotes giving the sources for 6-ft-9/255 lbs., while noting Basketball-Reference.com's variant figures. I've been unable to figure out how to make the footnotes appear properly within this bio infobox template (I tried running them both right next to the figures and one space removed, and the template was not happy); if some one does know the proper coding, that would be great, but it's not crucial that these notes be visible. (Thanks to Chrishomingtang for adjusting the template to allow for the proper appearance of the footnotes.) I hope you approve of the adjustment. Best, Dan.—DCGeist (talk) 19:53, 18 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Support With the copyediting from a few different hands over the past day, it looks like it's there. Well done.—DCGeist (talk) 18:59, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Support. The prose is generally good, and the article is well-referenced. Images are useful and comply with all guidelines. I hope you don't mind, but I've performed some minor copyedits myself; in this case it was quicker than listing the necessary tweaks here. Overall though, nice work; I enjoyed reading the article. Good luck with the remainder of this nomination. Steve ^{T • C} 21:33, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.