The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 16:56, 30 June 2009 [1].

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John Wark[edit]

Nominator(s): The Rambling Man (talk), Dweller (talk)

• Featured article candidates/John Wark/archive1

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It started with a promise – a dedicated Norwich City fan, Dweller, said that if I returned safe and sound from my five months of round-the-world travel, he'd work with me to get this Ipswich Town living legend to FAC. Well here it is. A major overhaul over two months with around 400 edits has taken the article from a POV-dispute to, well, this. As always, your humble nominators will toil night and day to address concerns brought up here. Thanks for your time. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:57, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Will check back later when I have more time, but one thing jumps out - "Wark has married twice—first to Toula, on 1 July 1981, soon after the 1978 FA Cup triumph". Three years is hardly "soon after" - are there some words missing..........? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:33, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ooh, good spot. Thanks. --Dweller (talk) 10:06, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. --Dweller (talk) 10:10, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments from Dabomb87 (talk · contribs)

• "Wark showed his worth as a goalscoring midfielder when he finished the following season as the club's top goalscorer, ahead of Ian Rush" "Wark showed his worth as a goalscoring midfielder" seems unnecessary, especially when you state that he was the top scorer immediately afterward.
  • The point we're trying to get across is that he was a goalscoring midfielder, not a striker. Rush was up front for Liverpool and Wark outscored him from midfield. This may be difficult to understand for non-soccer aficionados - perhaps we can find a compromise? The Rambling Man (talk) 17:39, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • I understand, not a big deal. Dabomb87 (talk) 22:07, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• "He featured regularly and helped the team to seventh place" I don't quite understand what it means to be featured, especially as a defender.
• "in which Ipswich "recorded fewer victories and suffered more defeats than in any campagin in the club's history"." Is the typo intentional?
• " and a testimonial against Arsenal at Portman Road" What does "testimonial" mean here?

More later. Dabomb87 (talk) 17:31, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hopefully addressed these comments, bar the goal scoring one... The Rambling Man (talk) 17:39, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• It was reported that he made "a small fortune by flogging" Might as well state who reported this, hm? Dabomb87 (talk) 21:54, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • He said it himself - updated. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:06, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Support with a few (minor) comments:

1. "During Wark's time with The Drum" reads a bit oddly; I had to go back and re-read the paragraph above before I realised it referred to Drumchapel. I appreciate you're trying to avoid repetition, but "The Drum" isn't an nickname like "Man U" that you can assume will be recognised.

   Confusion, hopefully, removed. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:49, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

2. "But according to Wark, never touching the ball" is a bit vague. I've no doubt he said it, but was it actually true? We must have someone with a film of the 1987 League Cup Final (or a Rothmans) who can verify whether it was actually the case.

   Well, it is "according to Wark" - I haven't got access to the footage I'm afraid. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:49, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

3. Nitpick alert! "Ipswich had been relegated 18 months before Wark's return to the club, meaning that they were playing in the second tier of English football" isn't true; Ipswich had failed to be promoted after being relegated. How about ""Ipswich had been relegated 18 months before Wark's return to the club, and were playing in the second tier of English football"?

   Correctly nit-picked. Fixed now. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:49, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

4. Any way to avoid the awkward double quotation marks at the end of the "Autobiography" section?

   Fixed I think. There were some odd double spaces and wierd quote marks going on there as well... The Rambling Man (talk) 06:49, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

5. Finally, the suck-eggs one: are there any free use photos of him actually playing floating around?

   I've tried. I've even emailed Mr Wark himself. So far, nada. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:49, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

All minor things, and as it stands it meets my personal criterion of "says everything that ought to be said and there's no obvious way to say it better". –  iridescent  21:06, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments and support, much appreciated. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:49, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

---

Comments from Jameboy (talk · contribs)

• Quick question: Why wasn't he in the squad for the 1984 European Cup Final and why isn't his appearance in the 1985 European Cup Final mentioned? --Jameboy (talk) 23:27, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'll revisit the autobiography to see what I can do. Thanks for your comment! The Rambling Man (talk) 06:49, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Heysel stadium now covered. Haven't managed to find out a reason for him not being in the 84 European Cup Final. Unfortunately it's trying to prove a negative, which is always challenging. He may have been injured (no sources for this), he may have been out of favour (no sources for this), just no reliable evidence to support any assertions. Would you know of any? The Rambling Man (talk) 16:27, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

---

• Comments from the Life outside football section.
• Wark has married twice—first to Toula, on 1 July 1981,[76] with whom he has a son, Andrew, born in June 1983. - No need for "born" IMO.
  • Then I guess it would need to say "....with whom he had a son, Andrew, in June 1983."? Always get a bit twitchy as that could be construed as him no longer having the son... do you see what I mean? The Rambling Man (talk) 06:49, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Could the In popular culture section be renamed to something that doesn't remind me of The Simpsons or video games? :)
  • Renamed. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:49, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Despite his retirement from the professional ranks, Wark continued playing football as an amateur, including signing for Woodbridge Town in 1999 alongside former Ipswich team-mate Paul Mason. - To me, "amateur" means "beginning", and Wark is obviously not a beginner. Is there a better word for this?
  • In this context amateur means not professional, i.e. the literal sense of amateur being he played for enjoyment, not payment. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:49, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• The book contained material which gained media interest. - A few more details would be great, if possible.
  • Well, there are two examples (him "flogging" his cup final tickets to a tout and him stating the current set of players wouldn't cut the mustard) - we felt any more would be a little over the top as it's just one aspect of the entire article.

I haven't read the rest of the article in-depth yet, but it looks great at first glance. –Juliancolton | ^Talk 23:42, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Julian, as ever thanks. Any further comments and helpful suggestions would be great. Cheers! The Rambling Man (talk) 06:49, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Support, my only concerns have been addressed, and the rest of the article looks good. –Juliancolton | ^Talk 16:29, 27 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Comments -
• What makes the following reliable sources?
  • http://www.tmwmtt.com/sql/seasons.phtml?text=1974-75
    • Replaced (despite it being the absolute de facto standard for comprehensive ITFC history) -> the less reliable but more generally accepted Soccerbase is used instead. As a matter of interest, one of the BBC sources uses Pride of Anglia itself... (http://www.bbc.co.uk/suffolk/content/articles/2008/02/19/itfc_1978_in_video_feature.shtml). The Rambling Man (talk) 14:45, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • I'm always open to being shown it's reliable ...
  • http://www.liverpoolway.co.uk/forum/features/23319-forgotten-number-seven-paul-walsh-interview.html
    • Replaced with Sydney Morning Herald. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:45, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • http://www.lockdales.com/Howtosell.htm
    • Removed altogether. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:45, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• I have concerns over the large amounts of the article sourced to Wark's autobiography.
  • Me too but when you are dealing with a relatively minor footballer there are scant detailed resources on his earlier days. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:45, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Please spell out lesser-known abbreviations in the footnotes (I noted UEFA and FIFA but there may be others. BBC doesn't need spelling out, it's too well known.)
  • Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:45, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Current ref 96 (David Bolchover..) is a book, so should be formatted as such, not like a website.
  • Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:45, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Decide whether you want the references with author's last names first or first names first and standardize them. Right now they are mixed.
  • Done - generally I'll blame Dweller for these.... ;-). The Rambling Man (talk) 14:45, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Cool! Can I blame Dweller for my next mistakes too? --Ealdgyth - Talk 14:54, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • I think we can all blame Dweller for the time being as he doesn't edit at weekends! The Rambling Man (talk) 14:56, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • I blame Dweller, too. Sorry, what are we talking about? --Dweller (talk) 10:23, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. --Ealdgyth - Talk 14:15, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking a look. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:45, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Comments
  • Wark's time at Liverpool is perhaps underplayed. The lead describes it as a "short period", but he was there four years, which included a European Cup final, two league titles and a league cup final. The Liverpool section in the body could possibly be a little longer. While the anecdote about the medical is interesting and adds colour, he did plenty of note at Liverpool which is not included and might be considered a higher priority. Looking it up, he scored three hat-tricks, for instance.
    • Sure thing, I was mildly aware of that - being an ITFC fan, obviously my detailed interest and resources lay elsewhere... I'll see what I can do. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:36, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Added some further detail. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:08, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • To a football fan, the significance of transferring to Liverpool in the 1980s is obvious. For those who aren't so familiar with English football, it'd be worth pointing out that Liverpool were the pre-eminent team of the period.
    • I will come up with something non-OR and NPOV which should explain the significance of signing for LFC in the 80s. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:36, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Tried to show the significance relating to the success of LFC over the prior few seasons. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:08, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Was inability to regain his place in the Liverpool team largely due to one man (Molby? McMahon?)
    • Will check. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:36, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • He came back replaced McMahon so I've added that. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:08, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Honours - we don't generally use the transient sponsored titles.
    • Removed where required I think. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:36, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Ipswich did win a European trophy, the club's first" - mildly implies that there were others.
    • Replaced first with only (sadly..) The Rambling Man (talk) 15:36, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Wark was outraged and Middlesbrough lost the second leg 1–0." I'd suggest putting this as a separate sentence, with a semicolon instead of and.
    • Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:36, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oldelpaso (talk) 07:51, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments. I'll see what LFC resources I can lay may hands on. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:36, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment – The Dean Hayes book listed in the general references is not cited anywhere. Was it an original source that was taken out later? Giants2008 (17-14) 01:47, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yeah, that's right. All the info from there has been superceded by various, more specific sources. It's still a good read though, so I've moved it to a Further reading subsection. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:27, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Disappointed. Support. Hope the rest is better than the lead!

• Opening sentence: "John Wark (born 4 August 1957) is a Scottish former footballer who spent most of his playing time with Ipswich Town, for whom he won a record four Player of the Year awards before becoming one of the four inaugural members of the club's Hall of Fame." It's longish and would probably be a better read if split: "John Wark (born 4 August 1957) is a Scottish former footballer who spent most of his playing time with Ipswich Town. He won a record four Player of the Year awards for the club before becoming one of the four inaugural members of its Hall of Fame." Gets rid of the "whom" for the club (which we realise is not a town after thinking about it).
• Second sentence: "Wark had long spells at the club, which bookended his career, and a third, briefer interlude dividing his short periods at Liverpool and Middlesbrough." OK, the two bookends were "long", and the third period was "briefER"—"brief" then "briefer" would go better than long then briefer. Perhaps "interlude" sufficiently implies that it was briefer; if "briefer" is removed, it won't get a chance to jostle with "short", too. "and an interlude during which he played alernately at L and M"? (I'm unsure of the facts.) Also, there weren't three interludes, were there?
• "This included selection for Scotland in the 1982 FIFA World Cup: he made three appearances and scored twice."—I'm in ignorance, but could it be "This included selection for Scotland in the 1982 FIFA World Cup, in which he made three appearances and scored twice."? Would flow better.
• "During his playing career, Wark appeared in the film Escape to Victory. Since retiring as a player, Wark has continued to work for Ipswich Town. He has written an autobiography, published in 2009. As of April 2009, he works in the corporate hospitality department at Ipswich Town." --> "During his playing career, Wark appeared in the film Escape to Victory. Since retiring as a player [in ?], he has continued to work for Ipswich Town – since April 2009 in the corporate hospitality department. He published his autobiography in 2009." Tony (talk) 16:37, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Tony, thank goodness you're here. I know, as in every nomination, you'll be asked "be specific, can you tell us more things to fix" - I'm loathe to do that but your professional eye is like no other around here, so we (Dweller and I) will do our best to fix this up. We would really, really, really, really appreciate further comment (assuming we can fix your initial problems in a timely manner!) in order to produce nothing but the best - after all, this is FAC. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:06, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I know it's only the lead but I think I've dealt with those immediate concerns. I think I have...... The Rambling Man (talk) 17:15, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Disappointed you're disappointed! I'm busy copyediting Luton Town F.C. (and taking too long over it, dammit) and my time's quite stretched, and getting worse, and to-boot, I'm probably too close to this, but I'll take another look Tony and see if there are other monstrosities I can see. --Dweller (talk) 21:25, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

A "Derby moment"—love it. I see one caption has a spaced en dash, but unspaced em dashes were elsewhere (and I added on or two to the main text). Can you check this is what you favour? Expunged a few of the "with + noun + -ing"s (Chicago MOS now says it's "clumsy", or some such ... bless their hearts). Tony (talk) 14:43, 27 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think I had introduced one or both of those spaced en dashes while copy-editing, so I've changed them to em dashes to be consistent. Dabomb87 (talk) 14:50, 27 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Weak support – This is downgraded from a normal support because of the extensive use of his autobiography. I understand that sources from his time are more difficult to come by, but the book is citing many facts beyond background details and his own opinions (the usually accepted uses of autobiographies). The remaining aspects of the article all seem to meet FA standards, so I won't oppose over it. Nice to see good work done on a player from an earlier era. Giants2008 (17-14) 23:21, 27 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just saw that there's a disambiguation link for christening. Might as well make note of it while I'm here. Giants2008 (17-14) 23:26, 27 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Disambiguated. Thanks, and as for your weak support, completely understand, thanks again. I'll do my best to make sure we use other RS where possible for "facts" rather than "opinion". All the best. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:31, 28 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment Per flag on my userspace, I'm not sure how much I'll be around to look over the copy again. Hope I'm not letting anyone down. --Dweller (talk) 09:17, 28 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment well you keep me in touch D, as much as you can! All the best. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:31, 28 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Weak Support

• Looks about ready in terms of content, but the prose is a bit disjointed – I'll give you some examples from a quick skim-through:
  • The section about his childhood doesn't read too well: "Wark was born on 4 August 1957, in Glasgow Royal Maternity Hospital to parents Alex and Helen." – Surely this should be "at Glasgow Royal Maternity Hospital"? And the use of "parents" here seems a bit superfluous to me, I'd be a bit worried if he was born to people who weren't his parents.
    • This may be ENGVAR, but I'd never say someone was born "at" XXXX hospital. I think the inclusion of "parents" is because the names have become so dislocated from the associated verb, "born". I suppose we could move the parent names earlier in the sentence and drop the "parents". TRM what do you think? --Dweller (talk) 09:09, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Probably ENGVAR, because I would never say "in" XXX hospital. Re: parents, OK. – Cliftonian^{the orangey bit} 09:20, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The third of four children, he has an older sister Wilma, older brother Alex and younger brother Andrew." This confusion in cases is a little jarring to me, and I don't really see why the names of his siblings are relevant. I'd link Alex Wark further down when he's mentioned in a relevant context.
    • Well, Alex is notable, so worth mentioning and it'd be odd to mention one. I think we need to link the first instance per MOS. --Dweller (talk) 09:09, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • OK. – Cliftonian^{the orangey bit} 09:20, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The family was impoverished: Wark's parents could not afford a cot and as a small child, he slept in a drawer from a sideboard." The phrasing makes it sound like the two weren't related.
    • The use of a colon connects the two halves of a sentence. A semi-colon would otherwise have been used. --Dweller (talk) 09:09, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • OK. – Cliftonian^{the orangey bit} 09:20, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Perhaps these could be rephrased thus: "Wark was born on 4 August 1957, at Glasgow Royal Maternity Hospital. He was the third of four children born to Alex and Helen Wark, an impoverished couple living in a four-storey tenement block in Partick. Wark's parents could not afford a cot: as a result, the young Wark slept in a sideboard drawer.
    • So, think is now covered by Dweller's comments and Cliftonian's agreements. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:38, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The family moved to another tenement block, this time in Scotstoun" When?
    • Early 60s. Said so now. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:38, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Wark says "[f]ootball seemed to occupy 99 per cent of my time as a youngster"[5] and he tried to emulate his brother Alex, who had become a professional at St. Mirren." says? Hm. I'd try something like "During this time, Wark attempted to emulate his brother Alex, who had become a professional with St. Mirren – he would later claim that "[f]ootball seemed to occupy 99 per cent of my time as a youngster".
    • Slight rewording (since others have already supported it, wholesale changes shouldn't be necessary), so hopefully it's a fair compromise. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:38, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He trained with the club at their Parkhead ground, before receiving an invitation to sign schoolboy forms for the club."
  • "was presented with the club's Young Player of the Year award, despite just four appearances for the senior team." -> "despite only appearing for the senior team four times."
    • Again, a compromise has been sought, rather than a significant reword. Hope it'll do. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:38, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Looks good content-wise. – Cliftonian^{the orangey bit} 08:24, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

All my comments are now resolved. I've upgraded my support accordingly. – Cliftonian^{the orangey bit} 10:43, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Image review: photos are appropriately licensed. Jappalang (talk) 12:40, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.