Ada Wong (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

• Featured article candidates/Ada Wong/archive1

Nominator(s): JokEobard (talk) 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 01:38, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about a character from the Resident Evil game and film series; who is known for her red dress. This was originally written by Niemti before I and HopalongCasualty rewrote it. The article was further copyedited by JokEobard, which I feel like I should push through.

The article is currently GA and has received peer reviews by reviewers like Aoba47 UndercoverClassicist Damien Linnane, PanagiotisZois, Tintor2, Fritzmann2002 after inviting some of them. I feel like the article is ready for the FA criteria and would appreciate more feedback. Thanks 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 01:38, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

• File:Ada_Wong_in_Resident_Evil_2_remake.png needs a complete FUR

• Both images need a source by or with the permission of the copyright holder. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:50, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Nikkimaria. I think I already resolved it. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 05:54, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

UC

I set out at peer review that I don't think the treatment of this character's sexuality/sexualisation is where it needs to be -- we have a lot of comments at the start of "Reception" as to her being a sex symbol, a feminist icon, a "bitch" and so on -- but nothing really set out to say where this comes from, other than that she's a woman and wears a (fairly unremarkable-looking, at least in the lead image) dress. There are also quite a few remaining grammar and prose errors. PR is advice rather than commandments, but it seems odd to bring the article here having left a lot of that feedback unactioned. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 08:34, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. I already removed and replaced it about their relationship with Leon since I found another source. I felt like the peer review was stagnant already. But I already attempted to resolve everyone's concerns at the peer review and got no reply back. Can you be specific what are the other few prose errors so we can figure it where is it? Thanks. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 08:43, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You did make some small scale changes at PR, mostly to remove individual examples of e.g. "revealing" or "sexualised", but I didn't see a real response to the broader point about how the issue of sexualisation is framed across the article. It's more than a matter of taking out a few words: it's about the overall structure and flow of information, and making sure that we actually have good evidence for one of the article's most prominent arguments.

A few examples of the prose issues, but not an exhaustive list:

• Game publications described Ada Wong as among the most popular and best female video game.
• Magazines also praised her as one of the best female villain
• Although digital media scholar Esther MacCallum-Stewart said that Resident Evil's female characters possess unique qualities making them viable choices for players to select over their male counterparts, and said their combat attire helped them avoid criticism of adhering to the male gaze.
• Play editor Gavin Mackenzie criticized her perceived "bitch" personality in Resident Evil 4 in retrospective from the events of Resident Evil 2
• correspond to the submissive woman–femme fatale character couple

In themselves, these are fairly easy to fix, but the reason for bringing them up is that I think they illustrate that the article really needs a bit more looking-over, including but not only for the matters brought up at PR, before it comes here. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 09:41, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I apologize if I was a bit rushed. But yeah, I can admit that writing in the reception section can be hard. Anyway, I made some changes to the prose issues you mentioned [1], though I couldn't change/remove the last part "submissive" since it's part of the author's quote. But I reworded the next sentence after that. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 11:01, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And I apologise for repeating myself, but I don't think this is a matter of tweaking a few sentences: I think the evidence base of the article needs a good look, and then the article itself needs to be reworked so that either a) the commentary about sexualisation, feminism and so on has some evidence from the games to support it, or b) the article is reworked to ensure that what it says is proportioned according to what it can demonstrate. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 11:43, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion was continued to the user's talk page. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 13:06, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Will leave some comments here. --Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 09:43, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• How is "biohazardcg2.com" reliable?

 Done and replaced into Behind the voice actor (the only source that confirms every voice actors)

• Ref 61 and 62 are missing pages.

I don't think they need book pages since the book itself contains almost everything about the RE plot. There are a lot of Ada mentions because she appeared in that RE novelization, which just retells the story of Resident Evil: Retribution. Meanwhile, I already replaced the 2nd novel source. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 04:38, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Add ISSN to ref 76.

 Done

• If there are any, unsourced categories should be removed. I'll have a look at them when I finish the review.

 Done I have removed some of them that don't fit the character.

• I did not find any issues in the first two sections of the article. To me, it reads well and explains those parts well.
• I will go through the Reception later and do a source spotcheck considering that the GA review took place in 2023 and the article has been slightly revamped since then.

Vacant0. Thanks for your review. I think I already resolved your minor concerns above. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 04:43, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Continuing.

• "Game publications described Ada Wong as among the most popular female video game characters." – in the following sentences you should list the reasons and opinions about this claim. This also goes for "Magazines also praised her as one of the best female video game villains, with capabilities to star in her own video game."

  I'm not sure if its needed because if I did added their long quotes/reasons then the reception might turn out to be listicles, which the WikiProject:Video games community hates it. I copied this format to the FA article Jill Valentine's reception section. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

• Spotchecked Ref 1, 2, 6, 18, 19, 20, 28, 31, 38, 40, 43, 56, 64, 65.
  • "The game allows players to select between four scenarios with interwoven storylines, and Ada's campaign becomes available upon completion of those of Leon, Chris Redfield, and Jake Muller's scenarios" I only see the beginning mentioned in Ref 40

    I ended up removing that content for being like a game guide content by reviewer below. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

  • No mention of the Russian Far North in Ref 43.

    Removed and commented/resolved each of your concerns Vacant0. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

• Support Looks good to me. --Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 10:46, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your thoughtful review! 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 10:53, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Some brisk points from my reading through the article.

• In the lead (and in the Concept and design section), the game genre survival horror is mentioned. While I agree, Ada shows in more than just the games and as this is an article on a character and game mechanics don't seem typically important in the prose, I'd drop the "survival horror" and maybe even say she's from the Resident Evil media franchise.

  Removed at the concept and design section only since in the lead it needs to be really specific. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

I've noticed you've kept in the genre in the lead. I know Wikipedians (myself included) can get obsessed with genre. I feel like in game articles it is important. Most people don't know what "survival horror" is and if we discuss Ada as a character in games and films, a game genre does not seem to relevant. Andrzejbanas (talk) 15:38, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Removed it, hopefully my conom will agree this time. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

• Lead and first section mention Ada, but sort of suggest she was an anti-hero in the first game as well. The citation mentioning the name maybe clarifies that the name as just sort of tossed in without much reflection of what kind of character Ada was or would be at the time. Might be good to add that or clarify it.

  Unfortunately, we can't. Pls see this argument by my conom here [2]. It also reads to me that her name being mentioned at the first game doesn't mean she was an antiheroine already. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

Sure, not going to argue this. She is more developed in the later games and hey, this might be a "different" Ada for all we know. Andrzejbanas (talk) 15:38, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• While I see this all over video game articles lately, WP:VG's cousin WP:FILMS and MOS:FILMCAST suggest "Subjective interpretation using labels such as protagonist, antagonist, villain, or main character, should be avoided. The plot summary should convey such roles." Not to mention we have material like "playable protagonist" linking to "playable character", which should probably be changed via WP:EGG.

  Replaced others except the word "protagonist" from lead and concept section and "antagonists" at lead. See this [3]. I am following Jill Valentine FA format, but I also agree that "saves the main character Leon" or other stuff reads awkward if I am gonna replace the word "protagonists". 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

Honestly, probably don't even need to say he's the protagonist either. Again, per the plot description ideology a good summary of who she is and what she does would clarify her role in a not really complicated story. If she's working for Umbrella or terrorists or whoever, this will establish her to a general audience. Andrzejbanas (talk) 15:38, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The thing is if we also removed the word "protagonist", the reviewers would be asking like "who is Leon?" like in the peer review, 2 person asked me about this. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

There are other ways to address Leon that will help the user. if its in terms of character, you can surely find sources that he's a police officer stuck in raccoon city or looking for the president's daughter. If it's more vague, you can surely find a source for him as the main playable character. Andrzejbanas (talk) 19:33, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Andrzejbanas Great idea you got there. Ive changed it into a "police officer" since I do have IGN source for that claim. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

• A lot of the concept and design refers to plot points I wouldn't understand unless I played the games or knew a basic narrative. It jumps around between the character/personality/job of Ada and changes in her overall design.

  Unfortunately, Concept and design section isn't the place for the readers to know the character well and I can't do really much here unless more sources can be found for her dev info but I already went deep and found nothing more. Especially Ada's backstory is unknown and Capcom didn't introduced it yet. I already arranged it in order into RE2- Re2remake- RE4- RE4remake- RE6/RE Village. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

  I think you managed to make this easier of a read. Good job! Andrzejbanas (talk) 18:04, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Leon and Ada develop a relationship. Is it like, romantic or sexual or strictly business? Might want to elaborate on that here.

  Their relationship is not specified by the source [4]. Their relationship is kind of complicated since in RE2, they have more of a romantic relationship in the middle of the game, but she actually only used Leon to steal a sample of the virus by betraying (the same with RE4). They can be assumed by fans or people who are familiar with RE as if they are having a romantic relationship, but it is not. It can't be specified or do you have any suggestions? 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

  Yeah see this is the problem here. A lot of the article assumes we are familiar with Resident Evil while we have to assume someone could stumble upon this article via a "Random Article" button or see her on the front page potentially. If we could find a source that somehow explains even that their relationship is vague or maybe re-phrase this that Ada casually helps Leon or steals from him or whatever she may do to showcase her anti-hero nature. Andrzejbanas (talk) 15:38, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Added content [5]. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

• "Resident Evil 6 takes place in 2012 in the fictional Chinese city of Lanshiang. The game allows players to select between four scenarios with interwoven storylines, and Ada's campaign becomes available upon completion of those of Leon, Chris Redfield, and Jake Muller's scenarios." probably don't need to know when you can play as Ada, feels a bit video game guide-y.

  Removed 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

• Honestly, going back and forth between the development and the plot, I feel like a lot of it could be moved around to make it easier to understand. I feel like stuff like "Ada is a Chinese-American spy and mercenary who recurs as an antiheroine in the Resident Evil series." and "Ada Wong was introduced as a supporting character in Capcom's 1998 survival horror video game Resident Evil 2." and "She meets protagonist Leon S. Kennedy, and the two develop a relationship as they save each other's lives throughout the game." can be covered in the plot. I'm assuming a lot of this article is based on the format of the Jill Valentine FA. I wonder if it would be better for video game characters to follow more wikipedia film article formats. Possibly a section called "narrative" or something that introduces key facts about the character "she's a chinese-american spy who works for the baddies" (but you know, written better) and then going into specifics about how her character relates to the plot and other major characters like Leon and Wesker etc.

  Discussion moved below. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

• Same with other elements. Her clothes she wears in the game feel a bit more related to the reception of how she looks and is perceived, as in the development section it just seems tossed in mid-sentence. Might be good to try to format how she looks in the critical reception. Something like "Ada has repeatedly been brought into broader analyses of the male gaze in video games [...] In the video games Resident Evil 2 and Resident Evil 4, Ada's outfit wears a red dress and high heels" follow up with the criticism, then maybe explain how the characters look changed in later games after.

  Removed her signature RE2 outfit info. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

I feel like i've addressed a good amount here, but that's just my comments for now, but I feel like this would greatly enhance the focus on the aspects of the character in the article. Andrzejbanas (talk) 13:14, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Andrzejbanas I definitely feel the right way is to copy Jill's article format or VG format rather than WP film article formats (I'm really sorry, but this would confuse everybody, including the peer reviewers). Moving her info about being Chinese and saving each other's lives kind of nowhere can be fit since the plot/appearances section only talks about in-game each Resident Evil game. Her outfits can also be part of the concept and design, especially its changes to the remakes. I don't see how it fits at reception since it doesn't contain positive or negative feedback. Also, all of the male gaze discussions (3rd paragraph) at the scholar and books mostly mentiona only her outfit at Re4 (No mentions at Re2). I will work on your first 6 lists tomorrow. Again, I'm really sorry If I couldn't do your last 2 concerns, but I can think what I can possibly improve to it for people who are not that too familiar with Resident Evil or video games format. Thank you for the review though! Regards 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 13:50, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hey hey. Sorry I think i'm being a bit misunderstood. I'm not suggesting to do WP:FILM standards (my main point there was to possibly slow down on the the protagonist/antagonist stuff as a clear plot summary will make it clear their roles. Having to name them as a protagonist/antagonist honestly feels a bit "high school essay".) I'm generally speaking in terms of her costume and look are brought up in terms of what seems trivial in appearance and honestly, stuff that I feel I could learn from the picture in the infobox (she's indeed wearing a red-dress.) But it comes off as "so what?" in that section and even potentially trivial. I feel it has better context within the reception section where they seem to be more thematically related. Also, nothing is really set in stone with how you write the article. I think you are doing a bang-up job, these are just basically my suggestions and you've brought forth valid points back. Andrzejbanas (talk) 14:53, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I guess I understand what you mean now hehe. I already removed [6] what you mentioned and will work on your other concerns much much later. Thanks for the detailed review! Will mention you back once I feel like I'm done. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 16:19, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Andrzejbanas Hi. Feel free to read each of my comments. I attempted everything what I can. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 01:06, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think you did a really good job of handling the issues presented. Some other quick ones:

"She uses a grappling gun for combat and traversal in the downloadable content (DLC) "Separate Ways"" Indeed she does and its pretty neat, but I don't know why its essential to know this. Doesn't really seem to come up again and comes off a bit trivial unless this is some major plot point I'm missing out on. Andrzejbanas (talk) 18:04, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Removed 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

I wonder if the whole "Voice-over and live-action actresses" section is better represented by a table or something as it feels a bit odd to just read. I know video game fans tend to really go big on voice acting, but is there any context we can have? Do any of the actors have anything to say about the role or the character that might add? That might add some meat to this section. Andrzejbanas (talk) 18:04, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

About the voice actors, I'm not quite sure since I cannot find a reliable source other than Li bingbing info at movie about her wig and minor details, but it was removed because it is the only one that can be provided a bit and its kinda redundant. The same happens at Jill FACs. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

Forthcoming. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 23:35, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Concept and design:
  • It seems odd to me that the first sentence of the second paragraph, "Ada is a Chinese-American spy and mercenary who recurs as an antiheroine in the Resident Evil series." Isn't the opening line of the body, since that's the top-level relevant detail. It makes more sense to say who the character is at a broad level before explaining when she was introduced.

    Her backstory is not yet known if thats what you're thinking. But, I've rearranged it a bit and added a content for its introduction. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

  • "The name "Ada" was conceived by designer Kazunori Kadoi and first mentioned in the original Resident Evil (1996).[15] Resident Evil 2 director Hideki Kamiya changed Linda's name to Ada to provide a link to the first game, and writer Noboru Sugimura came up with her characterization as a corporate spy." This feels like a weird mashup of facts and unclear through line. "Ada" was just a throwaway name in the first game and they picked it as a bid towards continuity? Or was Ada an actual character? (The source used doesn't really clarify that as someone who has never played either game.) Either way, I'd make the detail about the name(change) as a single sentence or two sentences, rather then "and Sugimura came up with her characterization" since that's not really linked to the name.

    Yes, the name "Ada" at first game is just an idea and more like a "throwaway". I made the changes you may wanted [7]. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

  • I think the concept section needs some rethinking more broadly. You go from development info to broad overview of the character role, to development info from the 2019 remake without introduction, then back to a 2005 game, then a 2012 game, etc. I know a lot of video game character articles try and stick all the development info before appearances, but there's no context for a lot of this development info if you tell it to us and then restate a lot of it when you get to appearances.

    I think I already juggled it now. It is arranged into RE2 - remake - Re4 - remake then Re6/Village. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

  • "Voice actress Sally Cahill played Ada Wong in her initial appearance in Resident Evil 2" — I get you might not want to repeat "voice" in the same sentence, but if the VA is not actually performing motion capture, etc. it seems weird to say Cahill "played" the character versus "voiced" her.

    Replaced 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

  • "The developers of the 2023 remake of Resident Evil 4 replaced Ada's red dress in order to distance her from the derogatory Dragon Lady trope, which portrays Asian female characters as "deceitful, mysterious, villainous, and domineering" according to Harri Chan of Polygon." Given that this is one critics' opinion that a) Ada is a dragon lady stereotype, and b) they changed her outfit specifically to avoid that, this really shouldn't be in the development section.

    Fair enough, I moved it into reception. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

• Appearances:
  • I think it would be better to rewrite the appearances a bit so each paragraph isn't telling us when and where each game is set, given that the chronology doesn't seem super important and the germane details are what Ada is doing in each game, rather than telling us where and when each one is set.

    The chronology only contains a minor detail because it is the introduction to each appearance in what place it happens and what year (the same with FA Jill Valentine article). Its really hard what to come up at intro if I'm gonna remove it or you got any suggestion? Anyways I expanded a bit. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

• Reception:
  • "Game publications described Ada Wong as among the most popular female video game characters." There's some weird tense choices in this section, where stuff like this is described in strict past tense, but something like "The Guardian journalists" are in present perfect tense when that seems like an example where you'd want past tense.

    I did reworded it now [8] 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

  • I think a little more collating of critic opinions is warranted, as right now there's certain stuff that is getting redundant (like if the common critical consensus is that RE4's outfit was impractical and ridiculous, that could get summed up rather than giving a laundry list of critics saying the same thing.

    Added 2 opinions. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

• Media:
  • An infobox image needs to primarily be about identification if that's its purpose; to that end, I'm not entirely sold on File:Ada Wong in Resident Evil 2 remake.png as the image here? A remake with a (consciously different) design doesn't seem like it's the best image for that.
    • Hey David fuchs, I think I already resolved your concerns but what do you think her appearance would be more suitable for her infobox image? I used her RE2remake design is because, it has been also used by Capcom or RE portal at her profile at the website. Her render at Dead by daylight has the exact pose like this one too. Much like Jill Valentine' s infobox image I supposed? since that appearance has been used by Capcom as like promoting the character. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)
• References:
  • Forthcoming.

--Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 19:28, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reserving this space for later. I'll have more comments in time. Shooterwalker (talk) 17:02, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I Will be doing some revisions.I think I'm qualified to oversee this article. Tintor2 (talk) 11:42, 8 August 2024

• Behind the Voice Actors has been approved by the game project but only the green mark is available. I recommend adding that to the citation.
• I've talked with the nominator and other members about the quality of Siliconera, but I'm pretty sure the game project has also approved it. It tends to mention the original material like Famitsu and translates most of it in order to be a more accessible source for the general public.
• Citation 16 is kinda weak. Access to such part of the game though is possible in modern console thanks to ports becoming playable digitally.
• I read all the sources and found everything reliable as approved by the project. The only website I had no knowledge involved writing by the famous Sarkeesian.
• The formatting of citations is consistent and formating of dates is also consistent. I might easily pass this once @Boneless Pizza!: added the note to Behind the Voice Actors.Tintor2 (talk) 18:41, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. I apologize for this, but no ref 16 is not weak or something, it is the only one of the two primary sources being used to verify the artists at the article. Anita Sarkeesian or Feminist Frequency is indeed reliable and it went through Jill Valentine's FAC several times. Also, I don't think we need notes at Behind the Voice, its unnecessary. Any more concerns about source reliability? 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 19:12, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Giving my support then. I was wondering if there was a more commentary to add for 16 though.Tintor2 (talk) 19:36, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The commentary for that source is also unnecessary after reading through Jill Valentine FACs, it has no commentary for the source about its artist. Thanks for reviewing sources reliability. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 19:39, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]