- Caitlin Upton (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (restore|cache|AfD)
- Lauren Caitlin Upton (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Lauren caitlin upton (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
This needs a full discussion. It appears to have been speedy deleted without an AfD. Miss Teen South Carolina, 3rd runner up for 2007 Miss Teen USA and a huge internet sensation (over 2 6 7 9 10 million youtube hits) due to her interesting answer during a Q&A. Was the primary subject of multiple secondary pieces by reliable sources like The Guardian [1], People Magazine [2] and a host of other TV and print media (Google news search). This is NOT a private individual, either before or after the speech. An embarrassed one, maybe, but not private. --Oakshade 07:15, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Note to closer This is a review of Dweller's 15:19, 26 August 2007 speedy deletion of Caitlin Upton (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) since Caitlin Upton was the only article posted before the !votes started. The remaining articles above were added to the nomination well after editors !voted. -- Jreferee (Talk) 19:03, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Note Today, August 28, 2007, she is in the news "Miss Teen South Carolina makes her mark with flubbed response to geography question." -- Jreferee (Talk) 00:34, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- List at AFD per recent incident, but I'll venture a guess (and argue there) that it'll get deleted per WP:NOT#NEWS Corpx 07:34, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Unprotect and await an explanation of why "BLP" was cited. Winning a state beauty pagent, and finishing high in the US beauty contest, makes the person a notable person. As in the nom, several sources are present. Sjakkalle (Check!) 08:48, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Support deletion This article was deleted by user:Dweller, but I deleted the same text the previous day. I would suggest that being the third runner-up in a beauty contest is not notable. Whether she is a youtube sensation, given that this is not mentioned within the article, is wholly beside the point. A version of the page does, indeed, comment on an allegedly fatuous answer she gave to a question on live television. If everyone who had made a stupid comment on live TV were to deserve an article, I venture to suggest that even wiki's large capacity servers would be overwhelmed. --Anthony.bradbury"talk" 17:16, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Ghyslain Raza (see Star Wars kid) is in a similar position, yet his remains? Tdwinz711 15:12, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- The Star wars kid is not a bio, nor should it be. Some 'incidents' are noteable enough to have their own articles, however these are specifically not bios and should not be written as such. Some incident's are not noteable enough to be mentioned at all. Finally, some 'incidents' are noteable enough to be mentioned in wikipedia but not in their own articles. She appears to fall into this category. The incident is mentioned on the Miss Teen USA 2007 and is likely to remain but there is still no call for a bio article solely because of the incident Nil Einne 22:44, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- But these are not criteria for speedy deletion. --Oakshade 17:28, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Non-notability-bio is. But let's just put it to AfD and get a consensus. Really, keep or delete, either is fine with me. --Anthony.bradbury"talk" 20:13, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I think you're confusing not having an assertion of notability (CSD 7) with a users opinion of non-notability, which in itself is NOT a criteria for speedy deletion. Yes, that's what this DRV is about, it should go to a full AfD, but it shouldn't have been speedy deleted without a discussion. --Oakshade 21:58, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not actually confusing the two aspects, because when notability is asserted it is still necesary to form an opinion as to whether the assertion is justifiable. To take a gross example, I could write an article about some wholly insignificant person, and say "This person is notable". That would be an assertion, bit a wholly unjustifiable one. So opinion does play a part. But, as we all seem to agree, let's go to AfD. --Anthony.bradbury"talk" 22:08, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Update - She was just a guest on The Today Show [3]. --Oakshade 17:35, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse deletion. I am, however, favorable to seeing if we can put together an article that goes beyond naming her profession and one embarassing incident. WP:BLP and many recent precedents support the decision Dweller made, but BLP does not mandate deletion if a well-written, compliant version is available. But so far I'm not seeing evidence of that. Right now, there are no reliable sources. Yes, there was no AfD, but for a case like this, we should debate the inclusion here in DRV rather than undeleting solely on process grounds (again, many recent precedents on that point, including Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Badlydrawnjeff. Mangojuicetalk 17:48, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- There are now over 200 reliable sources that have written about this topic. You are referring to a version that was deleted almost immediately after it was created with zero chance for anyone to cite the reliable sources in the article. I see nothing about this topic that fits the WP:BLP case for speedy deletion. And I very much disagree that a DRV is a place for AfD discussions (usually people argue the opposite here). --Oakshade 18:18, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- My comment stands. If we can put her embarassing answer into proper context and not give it undue weight, I think it would be okay to have an article. If all we can do is name her and then point out one embarassing moment, it's not an appropriate biography. Perhaps we could cover the issue at List of internet phenomena or somewhere similar. And you might want to remember about unique Google hits: there are only 15 in that search [4], many of them give trivial coverage [5], for instance. Those that don't focus exclusively on her embarassing moment and don't even provide any other information we can use. Mangojuicetalk 18:39, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- 15 unique secondary sources is quite a lot (probably more have been added) and much more than many other topics have about them. That's exactly opposite of your stipulation that "there are no reliable sources." And this isn't an AfD discussion, it's to discuss whether this speedy deletion was appropriate which I don't believe it was. --Oakshade 21:52, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Is Ghyslain Raza (see Star Wars kid) considered in context? Tdwinz711 15:11, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, I'd suggest that, in view of recent DRV practice (see, e.g., List of sportspeople by nickname, Ward Churchill misconduct issues), there seems to be a consensus for our considering, in situations as this, only whether BLP counsels/mandates deletion, and where BLP speedy deletion is overturned, for the article's history's being restored, the article's being blanked, and the issue's being listed at AfD for consideration of both BLP and general (e.g., notability, verifiability) concerns (which is, I gather, basically Sjakkalle's suggestion). Joe 18:31, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- overturn and list at AfD It is ridiculous to believe that the winner of a state beauty pageant has anything resembling a strong BLP right. At the point where there are literally hundreds of reliable sources that discuss the matter. There may be a concern with Wikipedia is not news but there's no reason not to have that discussion at AfD. JoshuaZ 18:36, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse speedy delete per WP:CSD#G10 and WP:BLP. -
Overturn and list at AfD - Does not meet speedy delete criteria. She has been in the news since December 2006 due to Miss S.C. Teen USA and Miss Teen USA pageant. There could be a decent biography written on her. If Wikipedia can't handle these incidents, then we need to change businesses. If more than three or four sentences in that biography are devoted to today's TV flub, please feel free to trim down to size per WP:BLP. -- Jreferee (Talk) 00:44, 29 August 2007 (UTC) This DRV request for the speedy deleted Caitlin Upton article was posted at 07:15, 28 August 2007 (UTC). Five hours after the DRV request, ChesterCharge (talk · contribs · logs) created Lauren Caitlin Upton at 12:39, 28 August 2007. It was speedy deleted 12:50, 28 August 2007. Westonma (talk · contribs · logs) then created Lauren caitlin upton seven hours after this speedy deletion at 19:56, 28 August 2007. It was deleted 12:50, 28 August 2007. Given the BLP problems of the article, the relatively little pre August 28, 2007 reliable source material available, and these Wikipedia procedural violations, an article on this topic is not maintainable by Wikipedia at this time. Please repost DRV request in a month or two. -- Jreferee (Talk) 19:17, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- So keep it deleted as a punishment? There are plenty of sources so I don't see why an article isn't maintainable, other than drive-by BLP deletions every few hours... but that's a problem with the admins, not people actually adding content to the article. --W.marsh 19:30, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- That is 100% content issue and nothing to do with the article topic. Per BLP, any unreferenced material in any biography needs to be removed, but that doesn't magically make the entire topic's notability or assertion thereof non-existent. You're advocating throwing the baby out with the bathwater or the "let's kill it in order to save it" mentality. It would only take a short time (likely very short) for that unreferenced content issue to be resolved. --Oakshade 20:03, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn per above. Are we here to provide information, or to advance a biased and unprofessional view of what journalism should be? I always thought it was the information thing... maybe I'm naive. At any rate, our goal should be finding better ways to provide that information, not just whisking it under the rug at all costs. 6 million people have viewed this on YouTube in the past 2 days, and many come to Wikipedia for encyclopedic information on what they just saw, but find a blank page no one can edit? We're derelict in our duty to provide information here. Note that I've deleted a weird article that appeared at Lauren caitlin upton, most of which was a copyvio or seemed to be. --W.marsh 04:08, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn the Lauren Caitlin Upton version, submit to AfD as needed. BLP is not offended as damaging claims are sourced. We look bad when we summarily delete in-the-news articles under less-than-perfect rationales. Neither A7 nor BLP justify the deletion of this article. -- Y not? 05:13, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn/Unprotect Frankly this is a little upsetting that this article was protected before a proper AfD was ever done. No offence but I know that there are contributors out there who are die hard against any articles having to do with internet celebrities but frankly that is how our world makes its celebrities these days. Lauren Upton not only deserves an article for being Miss South Carolina Teen USA but also for being 3rd runner up in a national beauty pagent but she also is even more deserving of an article because of the publicity she has receieved on countless National and yes International media sources. I will list links to references that could be used in the event her article is unprotected, note they come from all over the World.Her Official Bio, FOX, Boston Mass, USA,New Zealand,UK, New Zealand, France, Canada, [6], [7], [8], [9], [10], [11], [12], [13], [14], [15], There are plenty more references...actually there are THOUSANDS more but I don't have the time for them all. I just want people to recognize whether you like to admit it to yourself or not she is indeed notable and is deserving of an article. If this article is unprotected it should still be semi-protected to ease off of vandalism obviously. I do stronly believe that a very well sourced article can and should be created.--Joebengo 05:53, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse deletion - we are not here to write about people who are notable solely for making fools of themselves. Merge the content to somewhere else, if you wish, but one-idiotic-incident does not viable notability make. Moreschi Talk 10:30, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- She had other claims to notability... have we gone so far down the BLP slope that because someone does something we deem embarrassing we delete their article without discussion? We can write a decent encyclopedia article here given the volume of sources... that's all notability required until BLP got dramatically rewritten in the last 6 months. --W.marsh 13:29, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse deletion - Wikipedia is not a repository for trivial news events. Eusebeus 12:53, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- We have articles on many Miss Teen USA delegates from over the years (Category:Miss Teen USA delegates). Winning the state title seems in this event seems to be claim of importance accepted at AFD, especially if one goes far in the national competition. It seems like this article was deleted only because she got more news coverage than the other ones.. I find it hard to believe that even the current BLP was intended to justify deletion, let alone speedy deletion, of people who meet inclusion standards but got some potentially embarrassing press at some point. I'm not sure if people endorsing the deletion realize this is not just someone from Youtube but that there is independent notability... or if we're trying to set a new even more extreme precedent for BLP allowing the deletion of articles on notable people if they do something we think is embarrassing. --W.marsh 15:47, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Winning the state title seems in this event seems to be claim of importance accepted at AFD - That would actually seem to be "no, it's not":
- I've participated in hundreds of DRVs... believe it or not I don't really remember how most of them turned out off the top of my head, I don't follow them that closely. As for the AFDs... a lot were closed due to lack of sources, which isn't the case here. I just don't understand this obsession with getting rid of articles where we have plenty of sources... way too anti-content for me. --W.marsh 17:35, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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- Overturn - If this article is going to be deleted, then so does the article about Ghyslain Raza (see Star Wars kid). There is not more to discuss other than the fact that he has an article about him, so should she. He is famous because he was was made a fool of. He had no accomplishments prior to this, unlike her who had won the South Carolina Miss Teen USA. The end result, if her article is to be deleted, so should his. Claim that one-idiotic-incident does not viable notability make, but Ghyslain only had one-idiotic-incident. End all arguments Tdwinz711 15:01, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Have a read of this, Your Lordship, before banging down that gavel. --Calton | Talk 17:21, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes Mr. Know-It-All I have, have you read of this, or this, or this? All of which has been argued here. The point is, people are claiming that she is not notable, however I argue that she is notable. Since "notability" is a subjective term (see this) I was merely referencing another article that can be used as a comparison. Subjectivity needs reference points, agree? Also, you should read the introduction to that essay as it makes the statement "it is important to realize that countering the keep or delete arguments of other people by simply referring them to this essay is not encouraged." But then again, that is me reading the whole thing and not just the parts that I believe apply... Tdwinz711 19:12, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- ...have you read of this, or this, or this? - No, M'Lord, I haven't, but since they have no bearing on what passes for your argument nor on your declaration of unconditional victory, I'm not seeing the point here. --Calton | Talk 01:00, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- There really doesn't need any further discussion. It should be allowed plain and simple. If you disagree, just search Wiki for Star Wars kid (as someone else put on this page). The integrity of the administrators (or internet bullies) are at jeopardy. Blahblahblah98 17:17, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse deletion - Winning a state-level beauty contest is pretty meaningless, and one silly incident isn't sufficient, either. --Calton | Talk 17:21, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- But that opinion does not make the article a candidate for speedy deletion. This is not an AfD but a Deletion Review regarding the speedy deletion. --Oakshade 18:15, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- And Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy, either, and those who enjoy process for its own sake may want to sign up at their local law school's moot court instead just to keep in practice. --Calton | Talk 01:00, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- You're citing regulations, policies and guidelines all over this board but now you're using the bureaucracy argument. It's becoming pointless to even respond to you now as your arguments are self-contradictory. --Oakshade 02:05, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Mind pointing me to those "regulations, policies and guidelines" I'm citing "all over this board"? Hint: making up hypocritical arguments and attributing them to your opponents to demonstrate their alleged hypocrisy is really not a road you want to be going down. Nor are handwaving and bureaucratic wikilawyering really effective rhetorical techniques. --Calton | Talk 13:17, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Meh... Perhaps this doesn't quite fit the speedy criteria but I'm pretty sure it will end up being deleted on AfD. Borderline notability + mild BLP concerns usually mean deletion and while I have no objection to listing at AfD, I'm not sure there's any point to doing so. Pascal.Tesson 17:59, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn and recreate She is clearly notable. what she said will be referenced for years (yes i know about WP:CRYSTAL but im basing this on similar things in the past). After the incedent, she appeared or will soon appear on news/talk shows. She deserves a page or at the very least a redirect and a section about her in the Miss Teen USA pageFrank Anchor 19:50, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse deletion this would not have survived afd and to go through the procedure just to confirm that seems wasteful. Carlossuarez46 20:23, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse deletion - she is not notable for winning the local pageant (as confirmed by deletion of other such winners in the past). Even though her stupidity made it to the media, this wave of interest will be over in no time, so Wikipedia is not news applies here. Also, it's covered in the Miss Teen 2007 article.--Svetovid 21:41, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Since this is covered at Miss_Teen_USA_2007#Final_Competition, why not just make this a protected redirect there? Right now, probably thousands of people are looking for information and just getting a redlink. Seems better than nothing. --W.marsh 21:46, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn and send to AFD. I am not necessarily in favour of keeping this article but I think it is worth sending it for a proper discussion. I am the original author of the article and voluntarily requested its deletion following the deletion debates and subsequent deletion of a number of articles on other Miss Teen USA 2007. Straight after the pageant I was still of the belief that she was not notable but as the saga has continued and a number of international news media have covered her and she has appeared on the Today Show, I have mellowed quite a bit. There is precedent that an article a non-state winner who became notorious for quitting America's Next TOp Model was kept because of the combined notability of all these things (see Blnguyen's comment at that AFD) and I think that applies here. At the very least, it deserves a full discussion at AFD. PageantUpdater talk • contribs 22:29, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse deletion - Note, I am the admin who salted this article. Following the outcome at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2007 June 16 all 51 articles for the contestants of Miss Teen USA 2007 were deleted, based on insufficient notability of the state pageant winners. The old link to all these articles can be seen by admins who can view the deleted versions of Template:Miss Teen USA 2007 delegates, specifically this version where you will see redlinks for all of them except the eventual winner, which was rightly recreated. Now that being a state winner alone is established to be insufficient for notability, there must be sufficiently additional notability to permit the article. In my opinion one viral video does not meet this standard. Given the BLP concerns and vicious vandalistic history we have seen to date at this article, I think that it should stay deleted and possibly re replaced with a protected redirect. --After Midnight 0001 23:18, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Just because the other pageant candidates articles got deleted doesn't make this one a candidate for speedy deletion. And this individual, not any of the other contestants, has multiple (many in fact) secondary sources written about her. Your viral video opinion is an AfD opinion, not a reason for speedy deletion. Speedy deletion for BLP concerns is moot as this is not a private person; As long as the content follows the strict WP:BLP guidelines (everything verified, etc.), as with any public individual, there is not a reason to speedy delete this article not to mention salt it. If there is a BLP violation, then the violating content should be removed, not the article speedy deleted. --Oakshade 23:57, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Just because the other pageant candidates articles got deleted doesn't make this one a candidate for speedy deletion - If she's part of the same group, yes, it is, since that was the whole point of the group nomination. --Calton | Talk 01:00, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- This person wasn't included in that group nomination (so we automatically speedy delete similar articles to others that have been deleted?). Besides, this individual has arguably much more verified notability than any of those. --Oakshade 01:16, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- FYI - the group nom was a test case that convinced the original creator and other contributors to the articles to themselves nominate the remaining articles in the category, which led to some ((db-author))s. --After Midnight 0001 02:40, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- To elaborate: I picked 4 of the 49 articles and nominated them separately, then afterwards added -- for official process's sake -- a group of others which I had PROD tagged earlier but which had had their PROD tags removed. Note also that the header title is "Canden Jackson and other Miss Teen USA 2007 contestants". Short answer: yes, she was -- inherently -- part of this group nomination. --Calton | Talk 13:17, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse deletions - there is an outstanding precendent that we don't leave articles like this lying around - vios of A7, G10 and BLP. One youtube video doesn't make you notable. Process is pointless for stuff like this. Martinp23 23:28, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn. Notable enough as a statewide pagent winner and an internet meme/news story to at least deserve an AfD (on which I would argue for a keep, BTW). This is not a case of A7 and BLP is satisfied with ample available sourcing. Any article should be protected for a while, however. youngamerican (wtf?) 23:40, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn, BLP is there to protect people from libel, not public figures from their gaffes. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 00:20, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn. While the viral video seemed trivial to me at first, I've seen it referenced as a particularly poignant and ironic example of the American education system and the Pageant itself. Along with other factors mentioned by others, I think there is sufficient notability for the article to be restored. Desspec 00:42, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn and desysop admins who speedy-deleted. 8,140,556 views, hundreds of articles and counting Pajluvah 04:59, 30 August 2007 (UTC) — Pajluvah (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
- Comment The video is now the 59th most viewed video of AlL TIME, and thats all within 5 days which means it is only going to go up from here.--Joebengo 12:03, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse deletion. WP:BLP1E and WP:NOT#NEWS are rather clear on this, though the subject's apologetic appearance on the Today show makes it a closer question. Redirect to a paragraph in Popular YouTube videos or some equivalent article. THF 14:52, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- WP:BLP1E applies to "essentially low profile" persons which this person was not even before being a youtube sensation. Your WP:NOT#NEWS opinion is not a reason to speedy delete. A reminder, this is a review of the speedy deletion without a proper AfD. --Oakshade 16:36, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Just a reminder that the original deletion of Caitlin Upton wasn't exactly a "speedy deletion without a proper AFD". I requested speedy deletion of the original article (in June/July, prior to the pageant) because of the "delete" decision in the afd and subsequent deletion review of Shauna Sabir, among others. Had it not been for those afds, the article would still exist. PageantUpdater talk • contribs 02:29, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Understood. It had been recreated since then when circumstances very much changed, ie multiple secondary sources about this topic. It's that recent speedy deletion is what's at issue.--Oakshade 05:04, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn. There's at least enough doubt here to knock this out of the speedy realm. Personally, I think her gaffe is embarrassing, but not serious enough for BLP. --Groggy Dice T | C 02:21, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn. Millions of views online, most popular video online for quite a while, multiple TV appearances, and a beauty pageant runner up. She's notable enough. Vptes1 03:33, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse deletion, WP:BLP1E and would not survive AFD if sent there (WP:NOT#NEWS, WP:CRYSTAL, etc.), but meh, if this is overturned this should immediately be listed. --Coredesat 09:45, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- "... would not survive AFD'" is a pure WP:CRYSTAL statement. WP:BLP1E applies to "essentially low profile people" in which someone who, as already Miss South Carolina Teen, willingly participates in a nationally televised national beauty contest is not. WP:NOT#NEWS is not criteria to speedy delete an article. --Oakshade 16:23, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, I'll withhold my delete argument until this is listed on AFD and deleted like the rest of the beauty pageant contestant articles. --Coredesat 19:04, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn. How did this ever become a speedy deletion candidate? Surely protection of privacy can't apply here - she was the winner of a state beauty pageant and became famous for making certain statements on national television. She is a public figure, has been referenced in many recent news articles, and will not be irreparably damaged by the documentation of the incident that brought her notoriety. What is the rationale for protecting the page, exactly? --Soultaco 17:00, 31 August 2007 (UTC) (edited for minor errors)[reply]
- Without casting a vote, reccomend Redirect to Miss South Carolina Teen USA until consensus is reached or she becomes famous enough otherwise. --Lenin and McCarthy | (Complain here) 16:26, 1 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn, admins are expected to use common sense when applying WP:CSD. ugen64 19:12, 1 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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