Misinformation in the nomination[edit]
The outlanish false claim: Hi. Almost all video games have female protagonists. In fact, the only video game without a female protagonist that I know of is Company of Heroes. We need a category called "Video games not featuring a female protagonist".
Now, the reality - see, for example:
And so on.
The current list (about 850 titles with articles on Wikipedia - out many thousands game articles) is pretty much definitive and there's not much more. I used the lists compiled by others as well as my own knowledge. Also this:
And no, I don't agree with the panic articles claiming it somehow a huge problem or something. Maybe in the way of "first world problems", and anyone who can play only as a person/creature of their own gender is pretty sexist themselves in my opinion. But, the point is these games are rare (and also lots of people are now suddenly interested in them). --Niemti (talk) 16:43, 5 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment I tried adding this to a game that allows people to play female characters, and was reverted on the grounds that "it is a plotless fighting game, there are no protaganists". Thus, I do not buy the claim that we can compare the size of this category to the total number of video game articles we have and tell anything. The fact that it is in parent categories for articles on characters, not articles on games, gives me the idea this is not a well thought out plan.John Pack Lambert (talk) 19:43, 5 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Just random playable characters are not protagonists. And it should be in some kind of "video games by" (there are so many of these cats), but I neither created or categorized the category - I just used it, a lot (I sepnt so many hours filling up this category). Oh, and I guess this experience of yours has already invalidated your original concern (The definition of this concept is not tight enough to really be useful. Video games so often have multiple protagonists that the fact that a game with 20 possible protagonists has 1 that fits this definition is not workable.), so you can overturn your vote. Oh and female characters are protagonists in some fighting games but only when they're actually protagonists (in Mortal Kombat 2 the protagonist is Liu Kang and he's male, but in Dead or Alive 5 it's Kasumi and she's female, and some games have just no protagonists at all). --Niemti (talk) 08:31, 6 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- What game would you say has no protagonist? --Odie5533 (talk) 10:55, 8 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Niemti fails to understand the purpose of categories or the process of how WP decides whether they are kept or not. Niemti claims on my talk page that notability has nothing to do with categorizetion, ergo the mere (i.e., trivial) intersection of two concepts, even if the notability of the intersection is unestablished (because in Niemti's view it's irrelevant), is a basis to keep a category. Niemti is just plain wrong, but does provide an object lesson why we don't have Category:Beekeeping footballers just because we have Category:Beekeepers and Category:Footballers. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 21:42, 5 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Of course it has nothing with WP:Notability, it's just categorization, not influencing the article's notability in any way whatsoever. As for the notability of the subject (female protagonists) - lots of media are discussing it, probably more than any non-genre, non-platfform, non-release game-categorization category subject on Wikipedia. Here are all the categories under the parent category (hundreds of them, often with sub-categories of sub-categories, sometimes many levels deep): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Video_games And I think mass media outlets are not discussing "why we have so few beekeeping footballers, what we can do to get more of them"? --Niemti (talk) 08:31, 6 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Hello, guys. What I see in this section is chiefly caused by three elements: (a) disagreement over definition, (b) lack of due regard for our context and (c) sensational journalism. First, Metroid certainly counts as a game with female protagonist; but how about Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3? Without these sources actually listing the video games they checked, and us seeing what they regard "game without female protagonist", the statement "many games lack female protagonist" constitutes a non-neutral point of view and is unacceptable in Wikipedia. Next, our context here is Wikipedia articles about video games, not all video games or video games released within a certain time period... and certainly not what is seen as "lame excuses". (WP:PEACOCK!)
- Best regards,
- Codename Lisa (talk) 23:54, 5 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- By your logic, it is also non-neutral the statement "Almost all video games have female protagonists", which is the basis for the nomination. (Have you suggested there that we apply Wikipedia style guidelines to external sources like the Washington post?) Diego (talk) 07:26, 6 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Hi. Apart from the fact that WP:NPOV applies to articles, not structural units of Wikipedia, there is nothing POV about an auto-generated list of articles. And, as I already explained, my nomination applies to article in Wikipedia, not the collective set of video games in existence. Best regards, Codename Lisa (talk) 03:28, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Then remind me what was your point, again? The statement "video games lack female characters" was not used in an article either, and thus content policies don't apply. You have to apply the same standards to both sides of this debate. Diego (talk) 06:31, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- What "two sides" in that? Multiple rather respected sources (and Develop is a magazine for game developers) vs a bizarre claim of an anonymous Wikipedia user? --Niemti (talk) 07:10, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- NPOV definitely applies to categories (WP:CLN). There is absolutely a POV surrounding a generated list of articles based on a specific selection criteria. --Odie5533 (talk) 23:49, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Codename Lisa: I know next to nothing about Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3, which I didn't see in any list, and I didn't add (and no one did). If you think it has a female protagonist, or any else category it's not in currently, you can add cat-improve it yourself. Also, you still failed to provide any sources for your claim (Almost all video games have female protagonists. ), which I say was blatantly false (and provided sources to prove it).--Niemti (talk) 08:31, 6 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Hi. That was just an example that served a purpose. If you nitpick on examples, we can't possibly have a constructive discussion, regardless of how hard we try. As for the source, you yourself answered it below in response to Obiwankenobi. Best regards, Codename Lisa (talk) 03:28, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Let me rephrase you: "it was just another absurd statement from me, as Modern Warfare 3 has no female protagonists and almost no female characters of any kind whatsoever and it served a purpose of a senseless strawman arument to waste everyone's time". OK. Btw, I did take it ANI. --Niemti (talk) 06:43, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Hi. Your paraphrasing, I am afraid, is quite the opposite of what I intended. CoD:MW3 has two female character: A non-playable Alena Vorshevsky, a VIP, and an A-10 pilot. That said I mentioned this game because it at the other end of the definition spectrum: If we go with User:Masem's definition below, this game, and even games like Final Fantasy VII, lack a female protagonist. But by my definition, even CoD:MW3 has female protagonists. Studying User:Thibbs's comment below helps better understand my comment. That said, I don't think a mere difference in opinion of the definition warrants you personally attacking yourself on my behalf. Best regards, Codename Lisa (talk) 10:15, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- And it was still a really stupid and nonsensical strawman argument, and continuous refusal to read the definition of the term "protagonist". Also FFVII has a female co-protagonist alright, actually two pretty well known ones, their names are Tifa Lockhart. ([2][3][4][5] etc.) and maybe especially Aeris Gainsborough ("two lead female characters, Aeris and Tifa" - Game Writing: Narrative Skills for Videogames, p.117) - initially, Aeris "was supposed to be the sole female lead, and villain Sephiroth was supposed to be her first love, not Zack,"[6] but in the end we got the two female leads. Additionally, there is also a female sidekick, named Yuffie Kisaragi (in video game vocabluary we don't really use the term deuteragonist, like we widely use "protagonist" and sometimes "antagonist", but she fits the role pretty well). --Niemti (talk) 10:37, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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- What do you disagree with? Why? It's not conducive to discussion if all you state is "I disagree". Ansh666 04:38, 8 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Hello, Ansh. Did you say "conductive to discussion"? Which discussion? All I am seeing here are personal attacks, threats, allegations of strawman and bludgeoning the process. Niemti and I both worked on Final Fantasy VII articles. We both know how (un)true his statements in the last thread are. I have already elaborated why "I respectfully disagree"; if you are seeking witty impoliteness, I am afraid I must disappoint you.
- Essentially, there is no reason for me to sweat it. While people like you come here and vote "Keep" with a very narrow definition of the word "protagonist", the category is growing in size by the hour, defying said definitions. So, I just unwatch this page and mark this category on my calendar to renominate in one year, when the issue of redundancy is so manifest that no one bothers to mention pro-feminism ideals. Best regards, Codename Lisa (talk) 07:27, 8 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Whoa, whoa! I make a simple query (a bit blunt, but that's me), and get hit by that? Whatever happened to WP:AGF? Feel free to leave this, I'm going to now because of the response you just gave here. Ansh666 07:34, 8 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- comment If there are RS that make lists of games that have female protagonists and calculate how many games have female protagonists, etc, then perhaps listifying would be reasonable. But I'm not sure if such thing is defining - in other words, when someone describes one of the games in this category, do they lead with "Game X, which is unique b/c it has a female protagonist, was released this year" etc? There are also plenty of articles about games which do/don't have minority protagonists, but I don't think we want to have Games with African-American protagonists or Games with Jewish protagonists either - so listfying might be our best bet esp if you want to preserve the work already done - and you can add additional context/references/etc to a list that you can't do with a category.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 03:15, 6 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- This is the right approach - not the percentage of protagonists but the defining part. There are games that are in the mind of all as being defined by their main characters (Metroid, Tomb Raider with Lara Croft, Mass Effect where choosing the gender of Commander Shepard affects the games' content), that are covered in the media over and over by their strong female protagonists.
- The category should list those games where having a female main role has been noted as such, not games where an ensemble of undifferentiated characters contains one female, as that wouldn't count as a "female protagonist" as identified by RS - except for ensembles of characters where the females have been described by reliable sources as a defining characteristic of the game. Diego (talk) 07:26, 6 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- This category did at already, it all about protagonists (and not sidekicks, or just some playable characters in fighting games). As the name of the category itself says, it's just the protagonists and nothing else, and the games are all included only that way (at least in the games that I added, which is about 90% of the list I think). Go and start checking these articles and you'll see (many of these games are unknown/forgotten, but they exist, and they have articles here on Wikipedia). --Niemti (talk) 08:31, 6 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- No, there are no "RS that make lists of games" for any game categories in Wikipedia. Categories are based simply on observation by eitors (to quote myself: "games set in 1997" or "games about drugs" or "games with 2.5D graphics" or whatever else in so many categories - not a SINGLE category anywhere is based on any "RS that make lists of games", every time it's based on the game itself, its plot and gameplay). --Niemti (talk) 08:31, 6 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Also, what constitutes "minority" is pretty absurd in this case - white people are a "minority" in Japan, and the Japanese are a minority in France. And I can't even think about just any "Games with Jewish protagonists" or "Games with African-American protagonists" at all - almost all games set on Earth have protagonists that are either white or Asian (or mixed white-Asian, like Aya Brea or Jill Valentine), with some odd Native American or Middle Easterner (but not Jewish, more like Prince in Prince of Persia) sometimes (Resident Evil 5 has Sheva, but she's just a sidekick; Final Fantasy VII has Barret, but there's not even America in this universe; Metal Gear Solid has Hal Emmerich, but he's also just a sidekick). So your hypothetical strawman categories would have only Left 4 Dead 1&2 and Mortal Kombat: Special Forces for African-Americans and barely anything else (except film tie-in adaptations like with the Blade games) and practically nothing with Jewish protagonists (I guess the game industry hates Jews so much more than the feminists claim it hates women, if the latter's true). --Niemti (talk) 09:38, 6 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- comment In fairness to those defending this category, we should note that the Category:Video games category has dozens of categories, by genre, by theme, etc for video games, so this one isn't exactly that far out after all, and if we throw the book at that one and apply the same standards, it would be a pretty brutal purge.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:39, 6 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- There are also some very similar, like this (long-standing, no one objected for over 4 years now). --Niemti (talk) 06:57, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Generally for video games, when the word "protagonist" is used, it refers specifically to a playable character. In this manner, the number of games with female protagonists is rather small (though increasing). --MASEM (t) 21:35, 6 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- And more precisely, the main playable character(s), not just any (and in very few cases, the non-playable character who is the real subject of the story). For example (the example which I used already), Sheva is optionally playable in RE5, but she's only Chris' sidekick (a notable one, but just a sidekick nevertheless) - not a protagonist. --Niemti (talk) 06:50, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Yeah, I would agree too that games like Balder's Gate, where you gain a party of mixed genders and species which you control, that doesn't make the game one with a female protagonist. --MASEM (t) 14:30, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- In BG the protagonist is the player's starting character and can be female (I myself played as a sorceress). In early Ultimas the Avatar can be female, but later it's a dude. Btw, if we can have another category for protagonists with a customizable gender if it's a problem (like being potentially misleading). --Niemti (talk) 21:22, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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