- The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
- The result of the discussion was: rename. Flowerparty☀ 23:44, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Propose renaming Category:Fiji Islander swimmers to Category:Fijian swimmers
- Nominator's rationale: Rename. Use standard adjective for people from Fiji per Category:Fijian people and Category:Fijian sportspeople and their subcategories.
Notified creator with ((subst:cfd-notify))
Good Ol’factory (talk) 08:15, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Replying as creator of that category. I created it before noticing that the other categories use "Fijian" instead of "Fiji Islander". If it makes things simpler, feel free to rename it. However, I should point out that the correct term for the nationality of a person from Fiji is "Fiji Islander", not "Fijian". The word "Fijian" refers to ethnicity, not nationality. (Cf. Fijian people.) At least, that's the usage of those words in Fiji itself. Aridd (talk) 10:44, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- That would make sense, yes. It would be "Fiji Islands", though, not "Fiji Island". ;) There are several islands in Fiji, and the country's full name is the Republic of the Fiji Islands. Or, if you want to keep it simple, how about "Fiji swimmmers", and so on? Aridd (talk) 16:06, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Particularly as the article is at Fiji. Endorse Category:Fiji swimmers. -- roundhouse0 (talk) 19:22, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Such a change would be a massive CFD if consistency for all categories was desired; i.e., well beyond the scope of this one. Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:10, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Aridd, you seem to be confusing naoun-form demonyms and adjectival demonyms; Roundhouse0, you seem to misunderstand the use of the term "New Zealand". "New Zealand" it is the correct adjectival demonym for the country, much like "British" is for Great Britain and "Fijian" is for Fiji. Fijian people come from Fiji; New Zealand people come from New Zealand; British people come from Great Britain. Those people - using the noun-form demonyms - are Fijians (or Fiji Islanders), New Zealanders, and Britons (or British people), respecively. As such, ‹The template Category link is being considered for merging.› Category:Fijian swimmers is the correct term for this category. "Fiji Islander" is one possible noun-form demonym, along with "Fijian", but to use that here would be as incorrect as having a category for "Briton swimmers". Grutness...wha? 01:41, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I haven't supported "Fiji Islander swimmers"; and Aridd has explained the difficulties with Fijian. In some cases we are using the name of the country rather than attempting an adjective - examples are: Trinidad and Tobago people, Dominica people (a current cfd). (I am British myself but would never use 'Briton' - they left with the Picts as I recall but do seem to be making a comeback in the press.) We could of course use 'Swimmers from Fiji'. -- roundhouse0 (talk) 02:09, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment (nominator). Honestly, I'm not quite sure why this discussion is being had. A cursory glance at Category:Fijian people will reveal at least 51 categories that use "Fijian" to describe people from Fiji. The term is not limited to people of "Fijian ethnicity". For instance, let's assume I move to India and get citizenship there. I can rightly be described as an "Indian", even though I am not of "Indian ethnicity". Similar dual-use terms are common for a variety of nationalities/ethnicities, including "Tongan", "Samoan", "Japanese", "Vietnamese", "Turkish", and a phalanx of others. It's ridiculous to suddenly get concerned that "Fijian" is inherently limited to one ethnicity. Or are we going to start calling swimmers from Japan "Japan swimmers" because there may be some of Japanese nationality that aren't of Japanese ethnicity? Because there is a country called "Fiji" as the shortened name, "Fijian" is a nationality and is commonly used as such in all sources I can immediately refer to. Good Ol’factory (talk) 08:38, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Good Ol’factory, no offence intended, but your flawed comparisons suggest that you're not aware of the nature of this issue in Fiji. Now, as I've said, I don't really care what you all decide to do. But for the sake of accuracy, I should point out that the use of "Fijian" as an adjective of nationality is, at best, controversial and disputed in Fiji. I'm not saying it's never used as such, but it's not the official term. In Fiji, when people say "Fijian", they mean "indigenous Fijian". Look at the Constitution of Fiji, or at the population census, or at any law in Fiji dealing with inter-ethnic issues. They all distinguish between "Fijian", "Indian" and "Other". Citizens of Fiji who are not indigenous are Fiji Islanders, but they are not considered "Fijian". That is the official use of the terms, as enshrined in law and in government practice. Note also that the European Union's official list of demonyms states that "Fijian" should not be used as an adjective of nationality (adjective, Grutness; see, I do know what I'm talking about), because it refers to an ethnicity, not to a nationality. [1] As I recall, the country was actually renamed "Fiji Islands" (in 1997, I think) specifically so that non-Fijian citizens of Fiji would be able to refer to themselves with a term associating them with Fiji. Some people may use "Fijian" for non-Fijian citizens of Fiji, but such practice runs contrary to both the common and official usage in Fiji. As Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, it should strive to be accurate. Aridd (talk) 09:31, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I should add that, in English, the EU uses "of Fiji" as the "adjectival" form, since it can't use "Fijian" (which refers to ethnicity). Grutness, you seem to be correct in so far as they do not use "Fiji Islander" as an adjectival form (they cite it as the noun form); however, you're incorrect in using "Fijian" as the adjectival form. [2] Note also that the currency of Fiji is the Fiji dollar, which suggests that "Fiji swimmers" might be conceivable. Still, the most accurate phrasing would seem to be "Swimmers of Fiji". Aridd (talk) 09:38, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- No, I understand the debate completely, I just think it's relatively irrelevant when it comes to choosing a nationality adjective. Perhaps you're unfamiliar with the similar debates and discussion that have taken place in Turkey, Japan, and other countries. These haven't stopped us from using "Turkish" and "Japanese" as adjectives for the nationality, because they are widely accepted as such. If Fijians (as a nationality) don't like being called "Fijians", they should change the short name of their country. Until then, it will likely continue to be widely accepted as an adjective for the nationality. Good Ol’factory (talk) 09:49, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- They can't; there would be an uproar from the indigenous population. More to the point, there's no reason for them to. And besides, that's why they changed the long name of their country: so that Fijian and non-Fijian citizens of Fiji alike could call themselves Fiji Islanders. Just to finish on this, in case anyone doubts what I've been saying, a few quotes from the Constitution:
- in those negotiations, the paramountcy of Fijian interests as a protective principle continues to apply, so as to ensure that the interests of the Fijian community are not subordinated to the interests of other communities
- and:
- affirmative action and social justice programs to secure effective equality of access to opportunities, amenities or services for the Fijian and Rotuman people, as well as for other communities
- and:
- The 71 members are elected as follows: (a) 46 are elected by voters registered on one of 4 separate electoral rolls, namely: (i) a roll of voters who are registered as Fijians; (ii) a roll of voters who are registered as Indians, (iii) a roll of voters who are registered as Rotumans; and (iv) a roll of voters who are registered otherwise than as Fijians, Indians or Rotumans
- And so on. The word "Fijian" in Fiji refers to an ethnicity. One difference between Turkey, Japan and Fiji is that English is an official language of Fiji, and that they've explicitly established the usage of the term "Fijian" in English. Also, I don't know the details of the debate in Japan and Turkey, but have those countries come up with specific terms for nationality, distinct from their terms for ethnicity? Fiji has. What is "widely accepted" is not the same as what is correct. For example, here in France, the media have an annoying habit of saying "England" when they mean "United Kingdom". As a result, many French people genuinely do not know that there's a difference. Widespread misuse of the word "England" doesn't make it synonymous with "United Kingdom". Aridd (talk) 10:04, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - though arguing from such a small sample is fraught with problems, I have to add that the Fijian (so self-described) that I know best has the surname Singh. He states clearly that, being born in Fiji, he is a Fijian, as are all "Fijian Indians", a term used mainly by Fijians of Pacific island descent as an attempt to further split the two main communities on the islands. The word Fijian in Fiji does refer to an ethnicity - when used by half the people of the islands (the half which is largely responsible for creating documents such as the constitution). The other half use the term to describe the country as a whole - in exactly the same way that people in other countries do. Having said that, I do bow to your greater knowledge of the islands where (IIRC) you live, and realise that - given the potentially politically ambiguous use of the term "Fijian" it would perhaps be advisable to look for some alternative acceptable name. Grutness...wha? 02:04, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I can find multiple sources which say "Fijian" is an acceptable adjective for the nationality of people from the country of Fiji. The "right/wrong" issue you are intent on pushing appears to be limited to a defined sphere of people/organisations. The govt of Burma says their country is called "Myanmar", but we still use Category:Burma and Category:Burmese people because they are in common use and widely regarded as correct and acceptable. The same principles apply here. I restate again: There are over 50 categories that currently use "Fijian" as a nationality adjective. Your argument therefore suggests the need for a much broader CFD, well beyond the scope of this one rename proposal, which is for the sake of consistency. In other words, you have an argument to make, but in order to have a proper debate about it in a way that will maximise user input, all 50+ categories would need to be nominated for renaming using a revised scheme. I don't think it would be wise to try to find an overall consensus for 50+ categories in a CFD that involves one very new category with only 3 articles in it. Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:21, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Carlossuarez46, I have to admit I don't understand what you're trying to say. (Particularly since I have no idea what ethnic electoral roll these three swimmers happen to be signed up on!) Grutness, Good Olfactory, just to be perfectly clear, I'm not saying that nobody uses "Fijian" to denote nationality. Fiji Islanders of Indian ethnic origin are perfectly entitled to call themselves whatever they want. Some call themselves only "Indians", some call themselves "Indo-Fijians" (which makes some indigenous nationalists grumble), and so on. Anyway, I suppose the issue is whether we want to go by official usage or not. Officially, the word "Fijian" refers to ethnicity - though, as you've pointed out, these definitions were officialised by indigenous-dominated governments. (Fiji's politics in relation to ethnicity are very complicated, so I'm not going to get into that now. Suffice to say that the government at the time when the 1997 Constitution was implemented was still led by Sitiveni Rabuka, albeit a Rabuka who had publicly renounced his past calls for "Indians" to be kept out of government.) I recognise that renaming dozens of categories would be impractical, and I have no fundamental objection to using "Fijian swimmers". In an ideal world, it would be great if all inhabitants of Fiji could call themselves "Fijian" without it causing controversy, and frowns from the likes of Qarase. I simply wanted everyone here to be aware of the complications that surround usage of the word "Fijian", and of the fact that the term "Fiji Islander" exists to describe nationality. So, up to you. :) Aridd (talk) 19:10, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.