The following discussions are an archived debate. Please do not modify it.

Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

• 
  The WikiProject California Award first proposed image only
• 
  The WikiProject California Award second proposed image only
• 
  The WikiProject California Award proposed image only
• 
  A very rough draft
• 
  A fifth proposal
• 
  Image #6

• Proposed award for template creation. The WikiProject California Award would be awarded to persons who make or have made significant contributions to the WP:CAL project. This image incorporates one of the original barnstars superimposed on a California map outline with the project banner in the lower left corner. It is similar to another state project barnstar that I recently saw. Ronbo76 16:05, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
• Here is the second proposed design. The outline of the state is meant to show through just as the state flag does. The barnstar is an enlargement of the star in our flag and sits approximately over the state capital
• Third design is an homage to the original barnstar with the bear seeking the North Star.

• Template would be built with desired image. Suggested text: The WikiProject California Award is awarded for significant contributions to the WP:CAL project.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Ronbo76 (talk • contribs) 16:03, 16 February 2007

• Comment support concept, oppose both images. --evrik ^(talk) 19:40, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment I would support expanding it to:
    • Wikipedia:WikiProject San Francisco Bay Area
    • Wikipedia:WikiProject Southern California
    • Wikipedia:WikiProject Santa Barbara County
    • Wikipedia:WikiProject California State Highways
    • Wikipedia:WikiProject California County Routes

--evrik ^(talk) 21:45, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

• Either it is a Barnstar unattached to a WikiProject or it is a WikiProject Award. You cannot have it both ways. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 21:40, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment This is a WP Award, and not a barnstar. --evrik ^(talk) 21:44, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

• Comment - Prior to this comment, User:evrik reverted changes I made to reflect that this barnstar is intended to California related articles. Stars come in all shapes and sizes on Wikimedia Commons storage page. The second proposed image has a barnstar center and takes the shape of the star in the California flag. I have asked User:evrik to help me but he seems to very opposed to any suggestion. By no means is this a final image. But, its intent is to be awarded as a barnstar to California related articles. I am a newbie to this page.

My intent is genuine. I just need help to get the wording correct to reflect it is a barnstar award. If someone could help rewrite the proposal, I would appreciate it. Ronbo76 22:20, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

My rewrite reflected it is not a Wikiproject award. It would be called the California Barnstar Award. It would be awarded for significant contributions to California related articles. Ronbo76 22:23, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

• Well then, I'm sorry but I Oppose any attempt to introduce a barnstar for a single state. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 22:28, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
• No newcomers have been bitten in the making of this proposal. Let me repeat what I've said elsewhere. This is not the commons. There are almost no geographic loaction barnstars, unless you count the National Barnstars of Merit. My suggestion to you - make a WP Award for all California WikiProjects, and make it in the shape of a star. I am a member of WP:CAL, but I'm not going to say anything different than I've said about other awards. --evrik ^(talk) 22:30, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
• Support -- there is no real reason why there should be no award... --hello, i'm a member | talk to me! 02:58, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
• My suggestion ... take

• 
  a red star
• 
  and superimpose the bear

--evrik ^(talk) 03:33, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose all images - they need work, support concept.thuglas^T|C 18:15, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
• How about the new image I have added? Smomo 22:05, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose If its limited to a single state, there be too many brainstars for each. Maybe a brainstar for article related to the USA or Canada or Mexico might do, but this would spark the creation of too many! Also, it looks like most recipents of this award will be Californians. Canadianshoper 02:38, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose - It's too limiting - I mean seriously, I know that barnstars promote wikilove and all - but if we had barnstars for every state it would just get ridiculous.Daniel()Folsom |\^T/|\_C/|\^U/|^{(Can you help me with my signature?)} 03:37, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
• It's not a BS, it's a WPA. --evrik ^(talk) 18:43, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
• I still dont like them. The barnstar is terrible resolution. I dont mind the bear as much in that one - but i might suggest making the fur one shade. No offense to your flag intended :) i would also suggest giving it stroke so it is separated from the star. thuglas^T|C 18:15, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
• Comment my draft was conceptual. --evrik ^(talk) 18:43, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
• Comment i was not refferring to yours as it is just two images. Yours sounds good but i would strongly suggest whoever makes it puts stroke around the bear as brown is a very similar colour to red. thuglas^T|C 18:47, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

As per evrik's suggestion - Image:WPCF.svg (Image #6) thuglas^T|C 19:19, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject award

Image	What to type	Description
	((subst:The California Award|message ~~~~))	The California Award is awarded for excellence in editing California related articles. It is also the WikiProject Award for California, WP San Francisco Bay Area, WP Southern California, WP Santa Barbara County, WP California State Highways and WP California County Routes. This award was suggested by Ronbo76; it was designed by thuglas. It was introduced on date, year.

• I like it. --evrik ^(talk) 19:27, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
• Support --South Philly 03:00, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Comment should this go forward if no one from the wikiprojects cares enough to comment? --South Philly 15:26, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

• Support ~ Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 10:12, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
• Support --Eric Bekins 04:06, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
• Support: I would say a lot of the time its just one user who comes up with the idea. You know how it goes, sometimes you just forget to notify folks. Maybe not though. I do think the WikiProject should have an award.A mcmurray (talk • contribs) 09:47, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Comment: it appears no-one has actually alerted the WPs about this award. I will do so now. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 19:27, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

The following discussions are an archived debate. Please do not modify it.

Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

This was proposed on Jan. 4 as a barnstar. I thought we had strong support (11 supports), but then Evrik made the only opposing !vote and archived it. I don't understand how much support is needed for this to pass, and Evrik's comment on this was not helpful. So, I'm re-proposing it. Also, could someone please tell me what degree of support we need for this to become official? I'm really not attached to whether this is a barnstar or other award, but so many of the supporting comments were for it to not be limited to being a Wikiproject award. The original proposal and comments are here, and here is my exchange with Evrik.

Tally (note: this tally includes only the current discussion. Please update the tally when you voice your support or opposition.)

• Support as Barnstar: 19lots
• Support as Other-Related-Award: 1
• Support as WikiProject Award: 2
• Support as Personal User Award:
• Oppose: 1
• Neutral: 2

Here it is again:

Image	What to type	Description
	((subst:The Copyeditor's Barnstar|message ~~~~))	The Copyeditor's Barnstar The Copyeditor's Barnstar is awarded for excellence in Copyediting. speling grammer, and punctuacion are, important! Spelling, grammar, and punctuation are important. This award was suggested by Trusilver; it was designed by Kathryn NicDhàna with input from members of the League of Copyeditors. It was introduced on March 8, 2007.

---

Alternate Images - I still prefer Image Number One, and don't think it has to be square. But here are some alternate, square takes on the concept ~ Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 03:04, 23 February 2007 (UTC) :

• 
  Copyeditor's Star, Version 1
• 
  Copyeditor's Star, Version 2
• 
  Copyeditor's Star, Version 3
• 
  Copyeditor's Star, Version 4
• 
  Copyeditor's Star, Version 5
• 
  Copyeditor's Star, Version 6
• 
  Copyeditor's Star, Version 7
• 
  Copyeditor's Star, Version 8
• 
  Copyeditor's Star, Version 9
• 
  Copyeditor's Star, Version 10

Image Poll/Opinions This is a tally as close as I could get up to this point. If someone didn't express a specific preference, they aren't included here. Vague statements were too difficult to interpret and I stopped trying because it was driving me mad. ("One of the square images must be used." All the images are square even if they don't visually seem so.) Some people expressed an opinion on two or three that they liked; I counted those multiples on the image tallies so some people have more than one opinion represented here.

• Version 1/Original: 4
• Version 2: 1
• Version 3: 1
• Version 4: 3
• Version 5: 2
• Version 6:
• Version 7:
• Version 8: 3
• Version 9: 1
• Version 10:

If you feel this tally isn't accurate or representative, feel free to supply your own. However, beware the madness... --Pig^man_{Talk to me} 03:26, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

---

• Support I was puzzled when it was archived. --Pig^man_{Talk to me} 02:07, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
• Support I thought this received strong support and don't understand why it was archived, either. ~ Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 02:14, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
• Comment This was proposed as a barnstar and not as a WikiProject Award. While there was initial support, it died down after the first wave. The image doesn't fit with the rest of the barnstars, nor with the bulk of the WikiProject Awards - that's why I archived it. Any wikiproject can use whatever award it wants (and you can list it on the PUA page. If you want it to go up on the other awards pages then resubmit is as a wikiproject award. If you disgree, then ask some of the other people who are part of the WikiProject Awards to comment.

The image does not fit with the other images. I would suggest making the image more of a square, and having the quill and broom cross the star and not below it. Finally, as there already copyediting barnstars, make this a WikiProject Award. --evrik ^(talk) 06:38, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Question What copyediting barnstars? So, as the Wikiproject has approved it, can we post it as a WP award or does it have to go through this process again? I'm really not trying to be dense here, it's just that I don't find the explanations very clear. ~ Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 05:43, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

• Support I do not believe that the Editor's Barnstar really covers copy-editing, which is an integral and important part of keeping the quality high. I do not think that this should be a project-specific award, but rather a way to recognize users across the board. Agreed that the image does not quite fit in with the other barnstars. –Dvandersluis 20:29, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

  Comment I am working up some alternative, square designs that have the barnstar as the most prominent feature. I'll see about posting them tonight or tomorrow :-) ~ Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 23:48, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

  Note The Barnstar of National Merit is not a square design. ~ Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 01:54, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

  • Yes, I know, but that was approved a long time ago ... you're arguing the exception. --evrik ^(talk) 05:25, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
• Support - I think it would be good to have such an award available. -Aleta 20:45, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

To clarify my position, I think it should be a barnstar - copyediting is most definitely not limited to one WikiProject. Also, I like version 8 the best. Aleta 23:24, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

• Support:If there is one thing Wikipedia needs more of, it's good copy editors. This award is a great idea and should cover a gamut of little recognized tasks. I like the design too.A mcmurray 21:18, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
• Support: As a copyeditor with the League of Copyeditors I selfishly and whole-heartedly support this award! Galena11 23:29, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
• Support. We need more copyeditors and to treasure those few we have.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  01:25, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
• Alternate proposal check out Changes to The Editor's Barnstar. --evrik ^(talk) 05:25, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

• Support any of the three as a wikiproject award. --evrik ^(talk) 04:22, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
• Support -- first version as an "other related award". I don't feel it should be submitted as WikiProject award, since copyediting works on Wikipedia are a lot more common than solely inside the WikiProject, nor it should be submitted as a barnstar due to the design and some redundancy with existing barnstars. Although if redundancy is taken this seriously, the "The Welcomer's Award" might also be redundant with the "The Random Acts of Kindness Barnstar". Michaelas10 (Talk) 09:26, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
• Support any version as a general barnstar. Copyediting is Wikipedia-wide work, and deserves its own WP-wide award. Aleta 00:16, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
• Support either version 1, or something 1/2way between it and version 2. I like the quill overlapping the barnstar, but not to the point of obscuring it. I'm not completely taken by the broom though, maybe replace it with a scalpel? Regards, Ben Aveling 08:39, 24 February 2007 (UTC).

  comment - Added a version between 1 and 2. :-) ~ Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 03:30, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

  I meant higher, more like version 6, which I'm still not happy with. It ought to be possible to have the quill and broom with the barnstar, without obscuring the barnstar, somehow. What might work would be to rotate the quill and broom so that they are held vertically, one in each 'arm' of the barnstar? Regards, Ben Aveling 04:19, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

  Like version 7? I still prefer version one or five. In altering the quill and broom the images in v.7 degenerated a bit. Hopefully I could fix this if there is a surge of preference for that configuration. ~ Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 23:55, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

  What if we went with different symbols altogether? I know that the quill and broom are the "symbols" of the LoCE, and that it's really hard to find something else that is good to symbolize copy-editing -- I've been trying to think of something for a while, now. Maybe something like a fountain pen? Another idea (and bear with me, as this is somewhat hard to explain): Similar in idea to the RickK anti-vandalism barnstar, something that looks like a pen/quill "editing" a barnstar (by fade out or something)... again, I can see something in my head, but I'm not quite sure how to explain it. Some ideas to ponder, in any case. I think that perhaps if we move away from the LoCE symbol for a non WP-specific award, which is what we want this to be, the people who see this is a project award could be happier... –Dvandersluis 20:45, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

• Support the copyeditor barnstar as above, as it is displayed. Copyeditors should be treasured as Piotrus said. LuciferMorgan 08:36, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

• Support as WPA only; this is really redundant as a barnstar, as it is almost exactly the same as the Editor Star. Laïka 23:02, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
  • I disagree. A fundamental element of the "Editor's Barnstar" is the deletion of content, albeit in a beneficial manner. This award is designed for changes to existing text that make it more accurate i.e. copyediting. The barnstars would clearly be given for very different types of edits. WjBscribe 00:28, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

• Conditional Support One of the square images must be used. I do agree that the award is useful enough wiki-wide to merit a barnstar. Many users do copyediting outside of the WikiProject to justify having a more general award. What I'm not seeing here is a reason /not/ to- of course, my experience with the barnstar community is admittedly limited. --Moralis 07:12, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Question Do you think image number 5 is close enough to square? ~ Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 07:24, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
• Support As image displayed above - • The Giant Puffin • 10:13, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

If there is agreement [on a WikiProject Award] it can be posted to Wikipedia:WikiProject awards/WikiProject. Thoughts? --evrik ^(talk) 19:47, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

• Comment - While it's of course fine to propose this and get feedback, I'd like to point out that we've had 17 people voice support or strong support for this as a barnstar. A number have been very adamant that it not be limited to a WikiProject award. ~ Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 20:17, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Comment IMHO - Neither the design nor the concept really merit a 'barnstar,' the WikiProject League of Copyeditors can use this award as they see fir - but it's really a WPA and not a BS. --evrik ^(talk) 20:22, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Response - I know that's how you feel Evrik, but so far you're the only person saying that. ~ Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 23:21, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

• Comment The difference between this award and the Editors award, could be seen as the difference between the standard barnstar and the minor barnstar. As the most editors that are doing copyediting isn't a part of the "WikiProject League of Copyeditors", then perhaps this should be made into a barnstar. the difference between a BS and a WPA is sometimes rather thin. _→AzaToth 23:13, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose I haven't chimed in on this one solely before because I am really busy right now. While I agree with AzaToth that the line between a barnstar and a WPA can be thin. In this case I clearly think that this is not WP:BS material. It is too narrowly focused and it duplicate two or three awards that are already in existence (((The Editor's Barnstar)), ((The Original Barnstar)) and Wikipedia:Great editing in progress for starters). I think that Evrik is right on this one about being good for a WP:WPPA.

Objectively, I would not oppose this as a WP:PUA or as a wikiproject award. The image in my opinion still needs some work.

--South Philly 02:51, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't care either way, I was asked to comment, and my comment is "awards are an expression of wikilove and any excess process and angst over them seems to me to be contrary to the spirit of WikiLove. User:Pedant 04:07, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

• Support as Barnstar I've been holding off on this for a while, while I thought about it, because I'm always wary at new barnstars, but it seems to me that this barnstar fills the gap between the Editor's barnstar and the Working man's barnstar. The current efforts to make it a WikiProject are, quite frankly, dumb, because as everyone knows, there are thousands of people who copyedit, and only 50 of them are members of WP:LoCE, which isn't a WikiProject anyway. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 09:11, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
  • It's not about who gets to give what, it's about what gets listed on the page. --South Philly 15:43, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
• Note - Just reminding folks to also indicate which image they prefer, or to suggest a different image if they don't like any of these. ~ Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 10:12, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Version 8 is what I wanted, I just didn;t want to ask you to create yet another one. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 11:29, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Comment I like version 8 best so far. –Dvandersluis 14:46, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

• Comment Per the proposal guidelines. The old discussion is not relevant to the current discussion. No other reconsidered award has lumped both together. If you chnage this, I think you should make note of the old vote, but it's not relevant to the current discussion. If people cared enough, they would have voted again. --South Philly 15:21, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

If the old votes will not be counted, it seems acceptable for all those who voted (either way) to be contacted and informed that they are required to vote again. WjBscribe 16:56, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I just finished notifying all the previous participants (I think I got everyone) to come back and voice an opinion here. I tried hard to make it a neutral message without straying into WP:CANVASSING territory. --Pig^man_{Talk to me} 22:23, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

In response to all of this, I have called for more coordinators to step forward to help step forward so that Evrik isn't the target of abuse by people who don't get their way and who don't understand the process. Also, at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Awards/major_overhaul#Major_overhaul, I have proposed that we set a thirty vote threshold for any new barnstars, and a fifteen vote threshold for new WPA's and other awards; we suggest in the rules that only members of the WPA committee be allowed to move new awards to the awards pages; and that we say that a WikiProject has to have been in existence for six months and have 30 members to list their award. --South Philly 15:54, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I would like to point out that those rules are entirely arbitrary and you appear to have totally forgotten that this is not a WPA, but a barnstar and thus your comments regarding WPAs are irrelevant. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 17:16, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

• Support as barnstar. Seems to recognise a valuable general area of contribution that is separate from the barnstars that reward similar activity (see my comments above). I would suggest that fixing Wikilinks be added to the type of edits this award recognises as this is a major element of copyediting on Wikipedia. My prefered image is number 5 but I would support any of those above. WjBscribe 16:56, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Comment I'm wondering if the text in the box might be altered to read "The Copyeditor's Barnstar is awarded for excellence in Copyediting and Wikifying." Or is that being too inclusive of both? Meaning, you have to do both to get the barnstar? My thought is this phrase is ripest for alteration to include wikilinking. And I certainly agree that wikifying is very equivalent to basic copyediting as well as being very important grunt work on Wikipedia and deserving of recognition. Perhaps "...Copyediting and/or Wikifying." Or is that just awkward and counter to the award? Thoughts? --Pig^man_{Talk to me} 02:06, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

• Strong Support version 4 I think the image is much better now. · AO ^Talk 22:00, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Support as barnstar: My preference is for version 4, but I'm sure that any of us friendly neighborhood copyeditors would love to receive any of them. Galena11 22:53, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

As a point of clarification to Dev920's comment above, there are actually 129 (not 50) listed members of the League of Copyeditors as of today, and we get more every week. Galena11 23:13, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Ah right, sorry about that. Kudos to you! Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 23:36, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

• Image Comment - My preference is still for image #1, but in deference to those who want a more square image I think perhaps #5 would be a good compromise. However, whatever consensus emerges from all the participants in this discussion is acceptable to me :-) ~ Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 02:54, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

• Support as BS I'm basically reiterating my support vote that I had made in the last discussion because I feel that copyediting does deserve a barnstar differentiated from the rest at the moment. My opinion as far as images leans toward version #4.¤~Persian Poet Gal ^(talk) 21:18, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

• Support as barnstar I'm leaning towards image 5 or 8. Gzkn 01:14, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

• As ther are already 8 versions, I decied to make an own one. _→AzaToth 22:26, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
• Comment Waves checkered flag (or white flag). Okay, I think that the sustained support shows that there is enough support for a BS. Though no one really wanted to listen to my reasons for not supporting a BS, and this is what has caused most of the friction. I vote for version 9. Although, I still think that as a Barnstar this is duplicative to the already existing stars, and violates the guidelines listed above. I have no problem with this as a WikiProject Award. -- evrik ^(talk) 22:37, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Just as an aside, I really think that this level of guidance (rules) that we are trying to impose on what awards people 'may' use is becoming undesirable. Regards, Ben Aveling 00:09, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
    • Amen! I completely agree with this statement. I think we are overclassifying awards. -Aleta 04:00, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
      • If you truly believe this, I encourage you to comment at Wikipedia:WikiProject Awards. --evrik ^(talk) 04:09, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
      • Yes, Please come join in at the WikiProject. Right now membership in the project is very small, and the project desperately needs more input and as well as more hands to help with tasks. ~ Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 04:22, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

(Please, please don't move this section anywhere else. My tallies depend on knowing where I'm counting from and it's been difficult to keep track. OK?)

• Okay, according to my count, there is pretty much a first place tie between Original/Version 1 and Version 8. Both have 4 !votes. Second is Version 5 with three !votes. Version 4 has two !votes. Versions 2 and 3 have one !vote each. The latecomers, Versions 9 and 10, could be said to have one !vote apiece because they were added by someone who cared enough to create their own vision of the award. I don't really know how to proceed from here. Suggestions? --Pig^man_{Talk to me} 04:45, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I suggest another vote, this time get people to sign the version they like, and we can count the sigs. Regards, Ben Aveling 06:23, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Votes for design...
#1:

#2:

#3:

#4:

1. Smomo 10:25, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
2. thuglas^T|C 15:50, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
3. Moralis 17:20, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

#5:

1. Themcman1 17:33, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
2. ~ Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 22:09, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
3. WjBscribe 13:04, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

#6:

#7:

#8:

1. Pig^man_{Talk to me} 08:01, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
2. Dvandersluis 16:40, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
3. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 17:09, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
4. Ben Aveling 21:30, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
5. ~ Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 23:04, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
6. WjBscribe 13:04, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

#9:

1. thuglas^T|C 15:50, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
2. Dvandersluis 16:40, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
3. South Philly 18:58, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
4. A mcmurray (talk • contribs) 09:45, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
5. evrik ^(talk) 22:36, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

#10:

• It's been about five days for this run-off so do we want to call it? It's looking like #8 has edged out the others. I think it's time to post it. --Pig^man_dialogue 21:15, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

• Agreed. #8 is not my first choice, but it seems to have won by a nose. I say we go with it. If there are no objections I'll fix the template and post it. ~ Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 21:32, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

NEED NEW IMAGE		The Congressional Barnstar of Honor
		For substantal, notable, or significant work on Wikipedia:WikiProject U.S. Congress, or work of substantial interest to those members of that WikiProject.--Dr who1975 20:36, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

This is a proposal for the Barnstar award for Wikipedia:WikiProject U.S. Congress. The title is a play on words of "The Congressional Medal of Honor", in this case, the word "Congressional" means dealing with Congress and not that it is actually awarded by Congress. The Award shall be given by members of the associated wikiproject. I'm open to alternate images if anyone wants to propose one.--Dr who1975 20:36, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

• Support Obviously.--Dr who1975 20:36, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
  
• Comment Only thing to watch out for, one of the main guidelines for images is

No award may use or incorporate the image of any medal or commendation awarded by any nation or organization, past or present.

If this is a real medal given out in real life, you may want to think about whether this violates the above guideline or not, and if it does, change it so it doesn't. Smomo 20:47, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

• Comment Well, the medal isn't on there but the ribbon is an aproximation of the ribbon used on the congressional medal of honor. Is that a problem?--Dr who1975 20:54, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

• Comment The ribbon itself is a medal - it is worn without the adornment by a recipient in civilian clothes. Furthermore, adopting a medal awarded to United States military personnel who risked (and sometimes made) the ultimate sacrifice to save other soliders is in bad taste. For more information, please see Medal of honor. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.162.176.102 (talk • contribs)
• Comment Yeah I knew that. I was just hoping no else would (can't blame a guy for trying). Please see my comments below.--Dr who1975 00:24, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose "No award may use or incorporate the image of any medal or commendation awarded by any nation or organization, past or present." --evrik ^(talk) 21:41, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
• Comment also oppose the name. --evrik ^(talk) 21:42, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose - concur with Evrik and Smomo. I like the pun, but given we've already had irate soldiers emailing us about using the purple heart in a barnstar, I don't imagine this much more prestigious medal would go down too well at all.

Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 21:47, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose - Since a star is prominent in the design of the true Medal of Honor, this is too similar to qualify and would make some non-US readers think it is the actual medal. Not to mention it's a felony for anyone who did not receive the Medal of Honor to display or otherwise indicate they were a recipient - not sure if a Wiki barnstar would rise to that level, but why tempt fate? I do like the concept though. Perhaps a different image, maybe a regular barnstar with the US Capitol dome superimposed on it, without the ribbon and background, and renamining simply "Congressional Barnstar" would be more appropriate. Otherwise, there's always the generic Society Barnstar.Dcmacnut 22:13, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
  • What he said ^^^ Smomo 22:43, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
  • You think that if it said "Congressional Barnstar of Honor" in big bold letters right next to it that somebody would think it was an indication that the person had received the medal?... In any event... I don;t want to offend anyone. I would like to change the image but I am not a graphic designer... I had to ask a friend to make this one. I need time and/or suggestions.--Dr who1975 00:55, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

• Comment on Different Image Everybodies opposing but nobodies suggesting alternatives. I will be happy to use a different image. It's gonna take time to make one. What if I just took the stars off of the ribbon and maybe made it a different color? To the right is the OLD image. Can people please make suggestions/submissions for a new one?--Dr who1975 00:07, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
  • My uninformed personal opinion is that if you took the stars off and made it a different color, that would be sufficient change to make it a new, although derivative, work. But I don't know. I also am not too crazy about the name, I think the "of honor" part should be sheared off. Herostratus 02:55, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
• Comment I've got some alternative ideas I'm working on. I'm thinking of about 5-6 different options I want to present as a choice (all of which will respect the guidelines better) but I'm still working on the images. I feel like I've gotten off on the wrong foot here. Can we close discussion on this so that it can be archived and I can start fresh?--Dr who1975 19:23, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
• Comment That's fine by me, but don't think we all hate you or anything!! We're just looking to uphold the guidelines is all. Feel free to continue here, we won't judge a Barnstar proposal you make now by anything you've done previously ;-) Smomo 21:05, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Hope I'm doing this right, folks; please to be gentle. :)

I'm proposing an award for this project, and would like help in navigating through the hoo-ha (that is the technical term, I believe *g*) required. Since I started the project in October of last year, there's been a lot of wonderful work done that needs recognition, so I thought an award of some sort was in order. If it helps, the members are from all over. I dunno about it being an award vs. a barnstar or something else, which is why I'm asking for y'all's expert advice.

I just kinda threw the image together, so if there's better ideas, I'd love to hear. I was going for an aged look (thus the crackly effect), and with the color a sort of old copper effect. I've got some doodling for the award in this sandbox. Also, for any Hitchhiker's Guide fans, all the settings I used to make the image (depth, light angle, etc.), except the actual color itself, were 42! Who knew?

Thanks in advance for the help, doncha know. :) --Ebyabe 17:14, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Im not too sure about the idea, but as for the image... i think you should use the original barn-star image and set the opacity to around 80% and the blend mode to screen (if your map has white lines) or multiply/darken (if your map has black lines) and then up the contrast on the map (if you use your current star as a layer use darken/multiply after you desaturate it) This would make it closer to current awards. If the concept gets support and you do not know how to do this, perhaps i could do it (with equal credit of course). I would also suggest removing the bevel. thuglas^T|C 01:55, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Oookay so its not a map my appology. I could still help if you wish. thuglas^T|C 01:57, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

• Comment not thrilled with the image. --South Philly 03:01, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

• 

  Alternative; how about this image; it's based on the green plaques used by the register (example), so it's more obviously to do with NRoHP, not just history in general. Laïka 16:30, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

• • OK, I think this one is very very nice, and quite suitable for a National Registry of Historic Places award. I support this image. In general I think award 'process' has begun to verge on instruction creep and a tendency to bureacratize what I think should be a secondary part of Wikipedia/ WikiAwards are an expression of WikiLove and should be less formatted and more free-for-all in my opinion. However, if the process helps to generate nice images like this, it might be almost worth the excessive procedural angst. User:Pedant 20:15, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
• Nice image! --evrik ^(talk) 21:14, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I like this one too, but i have concern for rescaling. The barnstar looks great in its current size and is proportional to the original barnstar but will become small when rescaled due to the large background. if you can stretch the barnstar out to the edges of the background (the metal part), or alternatively (probably a better idea because the resolution wont have to be rescaled) shrink the background to the size of a normal barnstar and keep the current barnstars size i think it will be perfect. thuglas^T|C 22:40, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Funnily enough, I was wanting something that looked like the plaques. It's like you read my mind or something! I'll wait 'til the scaly thing is figured out, but I think we've pretty much got a winner. Thanks all, I'm feelin' the WikiLove. :) -Ebyabe 02:05, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

• 

  

  I've created a new version of the star. The star now goes almost all the way up to the border, and the box now has a similar aspect ratio to normal barnstars. It looks alright when scaled down as well, now. Laïka 15:06, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Looks good to me! thuglas^T|C 19:41, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

• Support - very nice star image! (No preference for type of award) Aleta 23:39, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
• Support - as whatever is applicable. The WikiProject definitely needs some way to recognize its members.A mcmurray (talk • contribs) 06:51, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
• Support as WikiProject Award - the image is very good! Smomo 10:27, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
• Support - I can definitely live with that. I'm fine with it being a WikiProject award. If I call it the NRHP WikiProject Award, as opposed to a Barnstar, is there any more process to go through? 'Cause I'm ready to start bestowing this asap and spread the love. :) --Ebyabe 21:32, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Other members need to come out to support this.IvoShandor 05:16, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

• Support as a WikiProject Award. Nice image! Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 22:00, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

• Support Not that my support is really needed at this point. That Plaque is a cool image. Very apropriate for the subject matter.--Dr who1975 17:15, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Support. Great image! Herostratus 17:36, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Support establishment of the award and I approve of the associated image. Malepheasant 08:00, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

This is an award given to users who have made Significant contributions to the Wikiproject:Artix Entertainment. This could include the DragonFable Article, the AdventureQuest Article, the genral Artix Entertainment Article, or any number of minigame articles. This is a Wikiproject award. I noticed that bieng a relitively new group we don't have an award to give our members for large, significant contributions, or to those who support us or help us with a particular problem.

--Be Well and Battle On: Leon Alistair 01:10, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose There is already an arts and culture award. The group is very small and relatively new, also the award doesn't look like the rest. Support only as a PUA. --South Philly 19:01, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

what exactly is a PUA?
--Be Well and Battle On: Leon Alistair 19:06, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

PUA stands for 'Personal User Awards'. See WP:PUA. Smomo 19:38, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Support for being a Wikiproject Award. --Jacklau96 09:11, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

• Neutral: I agree with SouthPhilly, nine members isn't enough to guarantee that the project won't be inactive in two months. Gain some more members and come back, for now it can just be a PUA. I do like the design however.A mcmurray (talk • contribs) 09:43, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

one thing about the watchlist, or patrolling recent changes, is that an Awesome Edit Summary is really a time-saver. i wish more editors would use the edit summary, and use it more often. i think this award should go to people who use a thorough and informative summary of his or her edits. i have also seen great humor when diffusing a situation or reverting one's own edit in these summaries. i would definitely give them this award. everyone has their little 'hotbutton' issue, and for me, it's when people make changes and leave the summary blank. i know it's optional, but it is REALLY helpful.
thanks
The undertow 22:54, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose; while edit summaries are important, they are a relatively small area of editing. For the various areas of edit summarising, you could use either an Original Barnstar, the Working Man's or Tireless Contributor Star (for people who consistantly use edit summaries) or the Surreal or Good Humour Barnstars (for humorous edits, especially those that help diffuse conflict). Laïka 16:01, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose cute, but just a silly idea. --South Philly 14:30, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose The barnstar of good humor serves well for a particularly amusing edit summary. This design has little to do with edit summaries anyway. Sorry.--Húsönd 18:38, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

no worries. i appreciate the honest input. the design is based on cliff notes, which are essentially a summary of an idea or novel. again, thanks for checking it out ;) the_undertow ^talk 06:03, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi. I just created the Barnstar of National Merit for Australia. Not sure if this needs a special approval process, as national variants are widespread already, and I added the (missing) Australian version. Hope this receives no objections, since i handed out the first award already before finding this page. -- Chris 73 | Talk 08:54, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Question Can you post a link to some of the other national variants that you're talking about?--Dr who1975 14:32, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

See commons:Barnstar for all, the commons:Barnstar/Barnstars of National Merit subpage in particular, and also commons:Category:Barnstars in general. -- Chris 73 | Talk 00:31, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Support Looks fine to me. You've already added it to the commons.--Dr who1975 15:51, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Just thought I'd suggest this as a UK BoNM, as I can't find one anywhere. Hope people like it! Sam 1123 11:21, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Comment The image is very long. I would suggest shortening it up a bit.--Dr who1975 14:34, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

He is referring to the awards here, at Commons: commons:Barnstars#Barnstars_of_National_Merit Smomo 15:42, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Comment I think the image should be slightly reworked so it isn't quite so long.--Dr who1975 15:51, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Comment The Australian one is longer - measure them -- Sam 1123 20:55, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Comment I mean length relative to width. You have to look at them porportionally to see what Im talking about. Your overall image should probably be larger and shorter so that the barnstar has more detail.

--Dr who1975 21:02, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Y'know... looking at it here maybe I'm making too big a deal out of this. I still think it would be a good idea to change the porportions.... but it's not that big a deal to me anymore.--Dr who1975 21:35, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I was thinking maybe there should be a Barnstar for people who regularly help other users by volunteering there, I know several users who are regulars there and always polite, I volunteer my self but I am new to volunteering there but not to Wikipedia. Maybe it could look something like this:

		The Helpdesk volunteer Barnstar
		(({1))}

Any thoughts? Regards - Tellyaddict 15:42, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose other awards already cover this. --evrik ^(talk) 23:07, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

• Abstain Quite a nice idea, but the image could do with some work. It certainly would be nice to give those folks something to look forward to. Smomo 20:07, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
• Comment How about expanding the concept to include the Reference Desks as well? Laïka 16:43, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose too specific. --South Philly 14:29, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
• Support Barnstars are specific.--Orthologist 22:30, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose the image. Support the concept.--Dr who1975 22:45, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose the image. Here's an idea

File:Helpdesk barnstar.jpg Pengwiin 19:28, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

• Comment Better idea for an image, but still needs some design work. Smomo 00:16, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
• Another idea:

• Question Evrik said other awards already cover this. Which ones?--Dr who1975 21:01, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I would like to see an award for those people who promote the world of academia. Be it by creating up to date pages based on the latest work, or by creating detailed biographies of academics both past and present. I think that those people in academia who work ceasely to come up with new ideas and apply ideas in novel ways would appreciate this. These people do not get much in the way of fans and so it would help get the idea that academics are doing really cool new things to the general public. This would hopefully prompt people to respect them more. I would like the award to look like a bit of chalk on a pedestal. - Curious Gregor - Synthesis for all 18:35, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Comment, mild support I think it's a good idea, but there might be other barnstars for this -- Sam 1123 20:34, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Here's a mockup for you! -- Sam 1123 20:34, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Comment Maybe for Wikipedia:WikiProject Education and/or Wikipedia:WikiProject Academics.--Dr who1975 23:26, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I was thinking of it mostly for Wikipedia:WikiProject Academics but good suggestion for other categories. I like the picture for the award. - Curious Gregor- Synthesis for all 11:41, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Analogous to the Photographer's Barnstar, this would be a 'General' barnstar for excellence in musical recordings. Something similar was proposed earlier, but never adopted for some reason, though a number of images were created, including the one by Alkivar I have up now. WikiProject Music has been using this image (another of the alternates in the original proposal) as an award, apparently outside of the barnstar system, and mostly for topical contributions to music, except that given to User:Dysprosia, which was for musical recordings. I'm not sure how to deal with this, particularly the pre-existing effort, so I'll leave it up to the regulars here.--Pharos 08:24, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

• As you noted, this has been discussed two times before. Check out the comments:

The discussion about a topical music award

What was lacking was a clear consensus about an image for a barnstar. If you're proposing an WPA, then the threshold is much lower. --evrik ^(talk) 14:00, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

• I like the image. thuglas^T|C 01:59, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
• I don't see a lot of support for listing this as an award. Actually, I thought it would make a great topical barnstar, but there was never enough support. --evrik ^(talk) 18:46, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

• Support as topical barnstar. I'm not too keen on the images, though Alkivar's first design looks good. Either that, or the current unofficial one (pink star on yellow-brown stave). Laïka 17:32, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

• • Support as topical - i prefer the first image. Not really a barnstar but kinda reminds me of hard-wood. Second one is not as nice it is unoriginal. thuglas^T|C 20:18, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

• Im thinking about making one based on piano keys... If anyone has a comment let me knowthuglas^T|C 22:43, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

• Support as an award, no strong feelings about classification of said award. Aleta 23:27, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
• Support: As topical barnstar. Wouldn't mind seeing a better image but skills are lackluster right now. Anyone?A mcmurray (talk • contribs) 09:44, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
• Support as a topical barnstar, but would like to see some other image ideas. Maybe notes around the star? A scroll with music on it? ~ Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 00:57, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Adding the image WikiProject:Music has been using. I like the purple. I see the in the previous discussion some did not like the detailed background (I sort of like it). I'm thinking of maybe trying this star with the treble clef, (or, just for variation, a bass clef ;-)). ~ Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 01:15, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

• Support per Kathryn NicDhana. I think the purple is good. Acalamari 16:48, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

• Comment There needs to be a decision about which image is used or this Barnstar cannot be passed. Please leave your signature below to vote:

FIRST IMAGE:

AKAVIR: Smomo 19:59, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

PURPLE ONE:

		The Imperium Barnstar
		Message goes here.  ~Steptrip Make me fall 23:47, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

You don't need to sign your post on this award, it does it automatically (it does all user's sigs not just mine, so don't worry).  ~Steptrip _{Make me fall} 23:47, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

...And what is it for? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 23:48, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Its a nice design, but whats it forPengwiin 00:01, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

It's for any user who enforces policy or ruling of the ArbCom/Jimbo Wales, although it does not have to be awarded to only admins, it can be awarded to users who report users who seriously violate a big policy to admins; report users who evade rulings of the ArbCom/Jimbo Wales to admins, etc ...  ~Steptrip _{Make me fall} 00:06, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Do we really need a barnstar for that? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 01:00, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

At least in my opinion we do. WP:BARN doesn't have any barnstars this specific purpose. See this diff for further information.  ~Steptrip _{Make me fall} 01:21, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

• Strong oppose I dislike the idea of giving a user an award at the expense of another user; which is what I see in this award. Anyway, the Anti-Vandalism Barnstar is good enough for that sort of thing anyway. Acalamari 16:42, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose plus I Call Shenanigans Wikipedia at worst is a benevolent dicatorship and not an imperium (and yes... I would also oppose a benevolent dictatorship Barnstar too). Steprip, for what I'm about to say I'm going to assume this is your way of making a complaint or some sort of commentary on wikipedia (I'd have to be an idiot to take it any other way)... first.. some sarcasm... Maybe you could call it the "passive agressive barnstar" or the "read between the lines you a-hole" barnstar. Surely you're not serious that this actually be an award. This has got to be a joke on all of us here. Please do not waste our time with this stuff. It is childish and unwelcome.--Dr who1975 20:35, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Just to let everybody know. Steprip has left a message on my page to inform me that he is indeed serious. I still oppose the Barnstar though.--Dr who1975 02:24, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose I can see where you are coming from with this idea, but if you particularly want to reward someone for doing this I suggest you just use a regular Barnstar. This idea is too specific. Of course, you could always make it a Personal User Award as they do not need community consensus... Smomo 14:09, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm proposing an award for those who are diligent in editing articles in the scope of WikiProject Professional Wrestling. The award is just like a normal barnstar in design, if someone in the project wants to give it to anyone else, they can just go ahead and do so. I believe this can help the overall quality of articles in the scope of the project because people will work towards getting the barnstar by posting exemplary edits and creations. Thank you. ----- GIGGAS2 04:51, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Could you explain what is going on in the image a bit please? Smomo 15:18, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Basically, the barnstar is standing in a ring, and it has a championship belt around the "waist" of the barnstar. ---- GIGGAS2 | Talk 18:44, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

A barnstar in a wrestling ring wearing a title belt, that is pretty damn funky! Nice one! Suriel1981 19:03, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! I figured it would capture the spirit of wrestling while still being a barnstar. ---- GIGGAS2 | Talk 19:07, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

• Support As an editor of WP:PW, I like it. good work Giggas, our project is long overdue for a barnstar of it's own. Bmg916^Speak_Sign 19:21, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
• Support Whole-heartedly. Well designed, humourous, topical barnstar for a project as yet lacking them. (sorry, forgot I had to 'vote') ŞůṜīΣĻ¹98¹^Speak_Sign 20:51, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
• Support. that's just nifty.«»bd(^talk _stalk) 19:07, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
• Support - it's about time we give some kind of award to the most hard-working editors. If so, can I suggest that we could have a type of vote every month where we could all decide who's worked the hardest in the past month, and (obviously) the person with the most votes wins the award for the month. That way (may sound very stupid), but we all have a very good reason to edit articles: to get the award!! Davnel03 19:19, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

• Comment Idea is nice but there's too much going on in the barnstar. IMHO the text "WP:PW" atleast shouldn't be there. What about just a barnstar with a belt? ↪Lakes (Talk) 19:40, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

My suggestion on the right:

↪Lakes (Talk) 20:54, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

If you could get a few more people from the project to come over here and support this award then it can be passed soon. Smomo 17:10, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

• Support for the idea, though I think the actual barnstar could do with a little tweaking. I'll fix up a design based on this tomorrow. -- Oakster  Talk  20:43, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

File:Pro Wrestling Barnstar.png

Well I've just seen Lakes' design and it's more or less what I would have done (with the belt better). Though I wouldn't mind it looking like slight modification on the left, with the arms looking more like a wrestler pose. -- Oakster  Talk  21:55, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

• Support - Lakes' design. The one on the left wouldn't make me cry though. Peace, -- The Hybrid 00:21, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
• Support - ye I like Lakes design more, I am up for it. :p Govvy 20:03, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
• Support Lakes design. Acalamari 16:43, 16 April 2007 (UTC)