The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep Hidy Ochiai and redirect Washin-Ryu Karate-Do . — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:49, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Washin-Ryu Karate-Do

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I Proded this as Not notable lack of independent sources (similar to a previous Prod) but both were contested. I still think it is a non-notable cluster of schools. Peter Rehse (talk) 19:02, 29 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Martial arts-related deletion discussions. Peter Rehse (talk) 19:02, 29 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am also adding Hidy Ochiai for the same reasons - apparently he founded the style.Peter Rehse (talk) 20:16, 29 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Washin-Ryu Karate-Do as a notable style. Looking at WP:MANOTE, this style has existed at least since the 1960s (claims a longer history), has notable practitioners (Hidy Ochiai and Mike Stone (karate)), is the subject of several books (notably Ochiai's The Essence of Self-Defense, Hidy Ochiai's Complete Book of Self-Defense, and Hidy Ochiai's Living Karate [1]--despite the titles having been selected for broader appeal, the first two are indeed on Washin-ryu) and mentioned in The Martial Arts Encyclopedia by John Corcoran and Emil Farkas and An Illustrated History of Martial Arts In America: 1900 to Present by Emil Farkas (verifiable by search at Amazon), numerous magazine articles (e.g., Karate Illustrated Jan. 1984, on its Sanchin kata [2] and Official Karate Jan. 1977 on the modernity of the style [3], among numerous others), basis of programs at SUNY Cortland [4] (see also [5]) and SUNY Binghamton. Notable, noted style. JJL (talk) 18:32, 30 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I found no reliable sources to show Mike Stone used this art (which he supposedly learned in the Army, although there's no indication it was ever taught there. Most of these sources deal with Ochiai and not the style.Mdtemp (talk) 17:20, 1 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Those two articles, for example, were on the style itself. There are many articles on Ochiai, but there are also articles on the style, as well as his books on it. There are sites stating that Mike Stone did study Washin-ryu [6], [7], [8] but I haven't found a definitive source; other sites suggest Shorin-ryu. JJL (talk) 18:36, 1 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Hidy Ochiai as a well-known martial artist. He is a two-time Black Belt Hall of Fame member, as Instructor of the Year and as Man of the Year, which satisfies the general notability criterion for Wikipedia already. (This is mentioned in the article, so the nomination surprises me.) He is the author of several books, has had minor appearances in movies and done demos on national TV, has numerous articles on him and interviews with him. Per his bio., he was the "number one kata (form) competitor by the PKA (Professional Karate Association), having won the United States Grand National Karate Championship for five consecutive years". The PKA was the major org. at the time. Have a look at how many martial arts magazine covers he has been on: [9]. That's three times being on the cover of Black Belt (Dec. 1976, July 1980., Oct. 1991), among many, many other magazine cover appearances (with corresponding articles). Official Karate Feb. 1974 has him on the cover and includes a personal profile of him [10]; similarly for Karate Illustrated Feb. 1975 [11]. Few martial artists with Wikipedia articles who are not known as actors could match his level of coverage. This is a well-known, well-respected, heavily covered (esp. because of his sword demonstrations) martial artist. JJL (talk) 18:32, 30 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Hidy Ochiai and Redirect Washin-Ryu Karate-Do to Hidy Ochiai. Ochiai is a well known martial artist whose name has appeared in myriad martial arts publications over the years. The style is not notable, but a redirect seems reasonable. Note that the sources given in the article on the style are really about the artist. Papaursa (talk) 19:24, 30 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment It would certainly help if at least some of these references worked their way into the articles.Peter Rehse (talk) 19:28, 30 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree. On the other hand, per the info. box at the top of WP:AFD, AfD is not intended for article cleanup/improvement. Tagging for references is the appropriate path where this is the concern. A simple web search would have quickly verified the notability of Hidy Ochiai. JJL (talk) 20:21, 30 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have added a list of magazines in which articles on Ochiai are prominent to his WP article. I also searched for Washin Ryu and found no mentions of it that didn't feature its founder. I don't believe either of these searches are complete, but they do seem to show their relative importance. Papaursa (talk) 23:11, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Merge into Hidy Ochiai. He appears to be notable, but I didn't find reliable sources to support claims the style meets WP:MANOTE.Mdtemp (talk) 17:20, 1 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Merge or redirect to Hidy Ochiai This martial art does not meet the notability standards for a separate article. My search found passing mentions of it, at best.204.126.132.231 (talk) 17:51, 2 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have added the word "not" in the first sentence of the above comment since I believe it is in keeping with the author's context. If this is improper or incorrect please feel free to remove it. Papaursa (talk) 23:11, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.