The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to Harad#Geography. (non-admin closure) Natg 19 (talk) 08:11, 7 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Umbar (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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Non-notable, rather minor location in Tolkien's legendarium. I can find basically no references in reliable sources to this location, and the ones I can find are fleeting references to appearances by "the Corsairs of Umbar" in plot summaries. I don't see the justification for an article here. A merge has been suggested, but I see absolutely nothing here to merge, really. This article is a long plot summary, a brief unreferenced section about when the books Umbar is mentioned in were published, and another shorter sections about adaptations of Umbar and its Corsairs. Fails WP:GNG. Hog Farm (talk) 19:26, 31 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. Hog Farm (talk) 19:26, 31 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Science fiction and fantasy-related deletion discussions. Hog Farm (talk) 19:26, 31 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Literature-related deletion discussions. Hog Farm (talk) 19:26, 31 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Gosh, that was the way to do things back in 2005. The justification for delete must be what sources are available, and you can't see that by studying the article itself; Umbar does seem very minor in the critical sources, but it seems a bit curious to bring it here when the merge discussion was just about concluding, and we were clearly going to merge and leave a redirect, which seems a sensible solution. I'd say we should Redirect since "Umbar" is a sensible search term and it's mentioned in the Harad article. I've considered just redirecting Harad as well, but the Haradrim are I think notable for the critical discussions of what Tolkien was doing making enemies distinctly ethnic, though Straubhaar points out that their function is to awaken empathy (in Sam Gamgee, when he sees a dead Harad warrior). All of which says to me that Harad should stay (and be rewritten, sigh) so it should be a stable redirect target for Umbar. Chiswick Chap (talk) 19:49, 31 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete I only supported a merger before because you really cannot delete from a merge discussion, and I didn't feel like creating a deletion discussion at the time. There is not enough seperate on Umbar to justify an article. This whole justification for delete is a discussion of what sources are existing, so I do not understand the counter argument. Personally I think we should do with AfD what we have done with CfD, and make merge discussion part of the same process as deletion discussions. Article deletion discussions basically have to be posted 4 different times, and we should publicize merge discussions just as much, with the added rule that they need to be publicized on both the existing page and the target page.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:25, 31 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per nom.--Jack Upland (talk) 21:40, 31 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

For the sake of clarity, I'm not opposed to removing this article but think we should at least leave a redirect, which the merge would have achieved. Chiswick Chap (talk) 21:55, 31 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah this wasn't exactly the greatest move on my part, but I don't see really anything in this article to merge. Probably shoulda just voted "oppose - redirect it" back at the merge discussion. Hog Farm (talk) 22:00, 31 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Redirect to Harad, the more general topic. If there's anything to merge, it can be added to Harad later, with citations. Goustien (talk) 23:39, 31 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Redirect to Harad, where it is mentioned in multiple places, and merge appropriate verifiable content. A WP:BEFORE-style search shows mentions in books like The Complete Guide to Middle-earth, Tolkien: The Illustrated Encyclopaedia, and The Complete Tolkien Companion. From these and other sources, there is verifiable material and per our policy WP:ATD, if there is verifiable material and a good merge target like Harad, a merge is preferred over deletion. Following policy, I recommend a redirect with subject matter experts determining what more might be merged from article history with due weight. --((u|Mark viking)) {Talk} 01:27, 1 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Redirect to Harad § Geography Umbar is another minor location in Tolkien's legendarium. ―Susmuffin ^Talk 01:45, 1 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.