The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. No consensus to merge is apparent in this AfD. Further discussions can, of course, take place on the article's talk page. Tim Song (talk) 01:46, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Steinway D-274[edit]

Steinway D-274 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • AfD statistics)

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The Steinway piano that this article discusses has no notability outside of being a Steinway concert grand piano, made by Steinway & Sons. No reliable sources exist that establish the piano as distinct from other Steinway pianos. Popular confusion about what constitutes a Steinway concert grand piano, or a Steinway Model D-274, makes it impossible to separate the subject of this article from its parent, the company. Binksternet (talk) 23:00, 15 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Merge and redirect. I propose any useful, non-redundant material be employed to expand the article Steinway & Sons, and the page be turned into a redirect. Binksternet (talk) 23:04, 15 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Instead of writing "This article is bullshit." on the talk page for the article, you could write constructive comments about exactly what things you think should be changed. Fanoftheworld (talk) 01:11, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • That is exactly what I would have done if there were any hope for the article. However, I stopped and performed my own investigation, and found no sources that talked about this or that model of Steinway piano. To the public, all Steinway grand pianos are the same, and none of the sources helps to differentiate one from another. Without this help, the subject is hopelessly non-notable, per WP:N. For your sake, I wish it were otherwise, but is not. Binksternet (talk) 05:54, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Speedy close. Nominator themself proposes to merge and redirect, which is an alternative to deletion that is incompatible with deletion. :wimdw: 23:20, 15 March 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wimdw (talk • contribs)
• Delete. I was involved in an earlier discussion about this topic, which ended with "Steinway D-274" redirecting to Steinway and Sons. This article is not neccesary and does not add anything that isn't in the main Steinway and Sons article. It is not different in any way to other large pianos by Steinway (apart of the size). Most of the references used do not refer to the D274 model directly. I think that redirecting to the main article would be a good option too.--Karljoos (talk) 00:50, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong keep. The Steinway concert grand piano with the model name D-274 is probably the best known grand piano worldwide. The references used do refer to the D-274 model directly or to "concert grand piano" which is what D-274 is. Fanoftheworld (talk) 01:11, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • If it is so well known, why are there no reliable sources to establish notability? I cannot find any, and the article does not have any. Nobody seems to know one Steinway grand from another, except for people associated with the company. Binksternet (talk) 13:45, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Merge to Steinway & Sons. There's lots of content here that could be put into that article, but nothing which indicates this Steinway model is particularly notable in its own right. None of the third-party sources provided focus on the D-274 model itself. (I do agree with Wimdw above, though, that the nominator probably should have proposed a merge rather than taking this to AFD.) Robofish (talk) 01:33, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep there is sufficient material to establish this as a separate article. The truly notable products from major companies--especially a world-leading product from the world-leading company , generally do get individual articles here. DGG ( talk ) 03:00, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Yes, they certainly do, when they are named in reliable sources. The problem here is that the leading concert grand piano model product of Steinway & Sons is not differentiated from any other Steinway grand piano model, in reliable sources, external to Steinway. Binksternet (talk) 05:18, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Binksternet's point is very valid, and no, there isn't enough material for a separated article. Most sources are about Steinway pianos or about Steinway concert piano, but not about model D274.--Karljoos (talk) 14:43, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Merge to Steinway & Sons. As has been pointed out, apart from size, there is no difference between the Model D and other Steinway grand pianos. DGG has pointed out that different products from the same company sometimes get their own page. This is true. But there are significant differences between, say, a Honda Element and Honda Civic that warrant their own articles. This is not the case here.THD3 (talk) 13:09, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Merge per above. Nominator gets a foul called on him based on him for suggesting merge as an alternative to deletion, I suggest merge as an alternative to "speedy close" and a trip to the free-throw line for a one-and-one, then get on with the game. Mandsford (talk) 15:47, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 20:07, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Merge and redirect. Changed my mind per THD3, Mandsford, Robofish and Binksternet.--Karljoos (talk) 09:13, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Very Strong Oppose - I don't see why you are so against this page. It is perfectly notable, so I don't know why you have added the tag. There are by far, enough references to make it notable. If you merge it, you will just delete all of the content and not put any in the new page. It is much better than the previous version so why destroy someone's hard work?--Pianoplonkers (talk • contribs) 13:44, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are 42 references in the article. The article is pretty. It has a lot of lovely prose and some interesting bits of information. Unfortunately, none of the 42 references that are external to Steinway contains the sequences "D-274", "D274", "D.274", or "Model D". In other words, the subject matter of the article is not known outside of Steinway. Binksternet (talk) 13:57, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • "The article is pretty." – Not a reason for deletion or merging. Then you could delete all sub-articles.
      "Unfortunately, none of the 42 references that are external to Steinway contains the sequences "D-274", "D274", "D.274", or "Model D"." – Once again, "D" (in United States) and "D-274" (in Germany and the rest of the world) are the professional names of the concert grand piano manufactured by Steinway. In the references you will often see the words "concert grand piano" used. Fanoftheworld (talk) 19:13, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • The Steinway Model C, or C-227, is also a concert grand piano.[1] Normal people do not know the difference. That "Good Morning Texas" co-host did not know the difference when Lola Astanova performed on the show using a non-D model.[2] In general, the Steinway models are not differentiated enough for the reliable sources to comment on them individually. People just know the make. Binksternet (talk) 20:16, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • No, the C-227 is not a concert grand piano, but it is – as your reference just above also say – also called the "small concert grand piano" – the word "small" is always used when talking about the C-227. At the official German Steinway website you will see, that there is only the D-274 called "Steinway concert grand piano" (in German: "Steinway Konzertflügel") and the C-227 is not called "Steinway small concert grand piano".[3] "Small concert grand piano" is more just a nickname for the C-227.
          That one host in "Good Morning Texas" makes one mistake does not mean anything. You generalize way too much. Fanoftheworld (talk) 21:45, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
          • Let me get this straight: the word "small" applies to the second largest grand piano of the seven models that Steinway makes? No, the word "small" modifies "concert grand"; the smaller of the two concert grands. The Model C "small concert grand" is a Steinway concert grand piano. Proving that the word "small" is always used with the Model C is going to be just as difficult for you as it has been to prove notability of the Model D. The differences that are so clearly delineated in the Steinway catalog have no analog in the rest of the world. Nobody else can tell the difference between concert grands, whether they are the pretty darn big ones that are called "small" or the other ones that are not. The kinds of sources that matter to WP:Notability do not display a clear understanding. Binksternet (talk) 23:02, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
          • On the German language de:Steinway & Sons Wikipedia page, the Model C is termed Semi-Konzertflügel, similar to "small concert grand piano" in English. Binksternet (talk) 00:42, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
            • "The Model C "small concert grand" is a Steinway concert grand piano." – No, the model C-227 is a grand piano with the nickname "Small Concert Grand" (and sometimes the nickname "Half Concert Grand"), like the model B-211 is a grand piano with the nickname "Music Room Grand", like the model A-188 is a grand piano with the nickname "Parlor Grand", like the model O-180 is a grand piano with the nickname "Living Room Grand" and so on.[4] But Steinway's American website is not clear about that like the German website is.[5] (Steinway's factory in America does deliver pianos for the United States only, but Steinway's factory in Germany does deliver pianos for the rest of the world, therefore I often prefer the German website). Fanoftheworld (talk) 00:55, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I challenge you to tell us what makes the D-274 essentially different from other Gran Pianos of the Steinway family (apart of the size).--Karljoos (talk) 10:33, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

We hopefully will make the others in due course. However, the debates that we have had have slowed down this process--Pianoplonkers (talk • contribs) 10:37, 19 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Why would you do articles about the other models, if they are essentially the same??--Karljoos (talk) 01:54, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep but improve. Admitting that I'm something of a latecomer here, I'd like to offer my .02. I would agree that most Steinway instruments are not entitled to their own articles--there's really no reason I can see to write separately about, say, the Model M or the Model L, admirable home/studio workhorses as they may be and regardless of any corporate efforts to give them airs by slapping "concert" designations on them or other lower-line models. The Model D, on the other hand, strikes me as a different matter, because for decades it has been the predominant instrument at least on American concert stages and the vehicle for performance by most major classical artists. Anent some of the foregoing discussion, yes, you'll very frequently see a simple "Steinway" used as shorthand for the Model D in this context, but to serious concertgoers generally and piano lovers in particular--albeit probably not to those of the public, including local newscasters, for whom every symphony, opera, chamber work, and chorus is a "song"--the usage is precisely that: shorthand for that particular model, not confusion of the model in particular and the brand in general. If someone gave a recital in Carnegie hall on a Model L, or even a B, I guarantee you'd see lots and lots and lots of chatter about the choice of instrument all over the Web and plenty of coverage in the formal media, too. If somebody gives a Carnegie Hall recital on a D, on the other hand, it doesn't draw a lot of specific mention, because that's precisely what's expected. Now, all that said, I also agree that the present article serves the subject poorly, as it is heavily encrusted with information deriving from company promotional literature and such. I've started an effort to correct that. It's slow going, in part because of that "shorthand" issue I mentioned earlier, but I think it can be done, and I think the subject is worth the effort. What I'd suggest, my "vote" if you will, is putting appropriate improvement tags on the article and working to bring it into better alignment with Wikipedia's usual standards of neutrality. Drhoehl (talk) 03:11, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. It's difficult to express just how important the Steinway D is modern classical music. Based on my experience working with professional pianists for over two years, almost all serious classical pianists prefer playing on a Steinway D to any other piano. Guitar companies Gibson, Epiphone, Rickenbacker all have separate pages for their historically significant models, so why not the most important piano in classical music today? SugaFace (talk) 21:30, 22 March 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.27.243.110 (talk) [reply]

There's already a Steinway and sons article, which includes detailed information about their models. The different models of Steinway Grand Pianos and not so different from one to another (apart of the size). Most of the content of Steinway D-274 is already in the main Steinway article. Also, check the sources of the article and you will notice that most references are about "Steinway grand pianos", "Steinway concer piano" and not about Model 274.--Karljoos (talk) 22:23, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.