The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Skomorokh 06:52, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Slut Night[edit]

AfDs for this article:

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

As explained in the good article reassessment page, there are no secondary sources that actually mention the topic of the article. Prezbo (talk) 07:09, 9 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Most of the references are to a non-reliable source, and if the remainder do not mention slut night, then this is basically an unreferenced article. A search didn't find significant coverage - it could be argued that a niche subject like this would not have much anyway, but as far as I am concerned, if no reliable sources can be found, it is too obscure to be worthy of inclusion in Wikipedia. Google News has no significant mention (most of the mentions are not about this article's practise) as there isn't on either Google Book Search or Google Scholar Search -- PhantomSteve (Contact Me, My Contribs) 08:19, 9 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as slut night has yet to achieve encyclopedic notability, unfortunately. JBsupreme (talk) 08:26, 9 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Jeremy (talk) 10:32, 9 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Strong keep and point of order'. This is arguably the third AFD (see Talk Page). The second AFD has many votes for a well resourced article. As my city gears up for Slut Night very soon, I don't think this is really too obscure for inclusion. Niche, sure. But just because something appeals to a minority does not mean it can't be worthy of an encyclopedic article. "Sllut Night" is very much an understood "thing" in the lesbian community and the article seems to do a good job of explaining, in an encyclopedic way its origins, its place within LGBT culture, its importance in the butch and femme (way encyclopedic) dynamic. Scarykitty (talk) 12:03, 9 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The earlier (first) AfD is here Geometry guy 22:47, 9 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

thinking the sources are very weak, it's fine to claim it's a well-accepted term but you'd never get that from the article and the sources presented, 5 7 of which are all of the same person giving their perceptive on it. --Cameron Scott (talk) 12:09, 9 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

delete looking at the sources, many are just a cynical attempt at padding so that to the causal eye the core subject of the article is well-sourced - I cannot disagree with the assessment here or the claim that the article is really *unsourced* in terms of establishing this term has wider cultural impact. At present, it might be worth a couple of lines somewhere else. --Cameron Scott (talk) 12:26, 9 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

this discussion is worth reading --Cameron Scott (talk) 13:20, 9 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

delete the sources are very bad - essentially just the one website, which doesn't appear to be a reliable source in any sense. The curve magazine article MIGHT be a good source but it is a broken link (going back to the current contents) and the link immediately above says that it never even mentioned Slut Night. The book can't be accessed online so it's hard to judge what it says, but I'll just point out that the link immediately above suggests that there are COI problems with the article. Smallbones (talk) 14:07, 9 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I had a look for the curve article but am unable to find it, I'm not sure it's that important as the my reading of the article is that it's a source about the treatment of black lesbians rather than anything specific about slut nights. --Cameron Scott (talk) 14:16, 9 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ok I found the book online, it's simply used to source the def of 'genderfuck' and says nothing about Slut nights. The decent sources in this article are simply contextual and for background and say *nothing* about Slut night. --Cameron Scott (talk) 14:33, 9 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment LexisNexis has 3 trivial mentions that confirm the existence of "Slut Night" (one in Texas, one in Australia and one in Germany) but do not discuss the history, prevalence or cultural significance. It might be fair to stub the article pending reliable sources that discuss these areas. Thatcher 15:16, 9 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - poorly sourced and seems more appropriate on Wiktionary than here. Half of the information on the page is clearly off topic and violates WP:COATRACK. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:19, 9 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's be more appropriate on Urban Dictionary than Wiktionary. DreamGuy (talk) 21:42, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - more than half the citations are to articles on the Butch-Femme.com website; those articles by R. Drinkwater (a site founder) count as self-published, and the other articles by members of the community are arguably self-published too. Even if they weren't, it would be hard to qualify this site as reliable.KD Tries Again (talk) 16:43, 9 September 2009 (UTC)KD Tries Again[reply]

Weak delete - as someone LGBT myself, and living in the Bay Area, I've never heard of this term before. The sources in the article don't really check out. It needs a lot of work if it's to be a keeper, IMO - Alison ^❤ 20:54, 9 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This article has been living on borrowed time. Before the previous AfD it was a two paragraph stub, which was something between a place-marker and an advertisement. During the previous AfD (not the first, which is actually here) tremendous improvements were made (in one impressive edit). The AfD wasn't able to assimilate these improvements or realise that they did not add any reliable sources with third party coverage of the term. I checked all this when I closed the GA reassessment and was tempted to nom for AfD myself. However, I decided to tag the article to give it one last chance to demonstrate its encyclopedic value. That hasn't happened. Time is up, delete. Geometry guy 22:47, 9 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Horribly badly sourced - six of the refs go to the same website, hardly useful for establishing notability, one goes to geocities and the remainder don't add up to WP:GNG. Ironholds (talk) 22:51, 9 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

According to what I read here Slut Night is a creation of Butch-Femme.com, and all I could find giving any significant coverage was on Butch-Femme.com, i.e. not independent coverage. While I know that not all sources are available online, I doubt that Slut Night meets the notability criteria, and I'm very surprised that it passed a GA review. p.s. This is one of several articles edited by Benjiboi that have been nominated for deletion recently. Before anyone nominates further articles, note that hounding an editor can result in blocks. Fences&Windows 06:50, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I doubt you'd get far with that line in this situation - it's almost a snow delete. Moreover, it's only natural that when someone is exposed as dishonest over a long period of time that their contributions are examined closely. I cannot see how you'd be able to make a hounding case in this situation. That would be liking saying the police shouldn't check to see if a mugger did not have other victims. --Cameron Scott (talk) 07:33, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't notice myself arguing against deletion, my note about hounding was the general pattern that has emerged in the past week. Take a step back Cameron, please. Wikipedia doesn't need righteous zeal. Fences&Windows 09:20, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You've got a problem with my recent conduct, you feel free to head over to AN/I. I've got no time for vague threats, so don't waste my time. --Cameron Scott (talk) 09:35, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What vague threats? I'm asking you to back off, I'm not waving a banhammer. Fences&Windows 19:35, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

For the record I'd like to say that I had never heard of Benjiboi before coming across this article and am not "hounding" him. I understand there's some kind of drama going on currently but I wasn't aware of that when I nominated this article.Prezbo (talk) 04:51, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: What makes a website a reliable source?" I agree with the comment above that butch-femme.com is a reliable source in its own right and it does not exist for the promotion of Slut night. It is an active, vibrant online meeting place for this notable subculture. One section of their forum has more than 1 million posts. It includes a resource list with a guide to domestic violence, a legal guide, and a reading list [1]. I wonder if you went through every book on the reading list what you would find? I haven't seen anyone cite the guidelines for what makes a web-site a reliable or not reliable source (I don't know). It seems this article's fate turns on this question and criteria, and there have been innuendo that the site exists to promote Slut Night, yet this is simply not the case, which I know from my personal knowledge of friends who use the site as often as anyone else uses Facebook, but also from common sense by viewing the site and observing the incredibly high volume of activity and the extensive, non Slut Night related resources.

Also, Guess what a bunch of women interested in butch and femme dynamics are doing tonight in DC? Slut Night in DC at the notable bar Phase 1. [2] [3] Maybe there will be a write up about it or photos from it in the Washington Blade or Metro Weekly or maybe they'll ignore it especially as the latter is very focused on the gay male scene with occasional nods to what the gals are up to. See systemic bias. Scarykitty (talk)

You might read WP:RS to more fully answer your question, but to put it in front of unbiased eyes I ask about Butch-femme at WP:RSN. Smallbones (talk) 20:48, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The reliability of a source is not an absolute, but depends on what the source is being used for. In this case the key issue is not the reliability of butch-femme.com (although that is in question), but the fact that there is no other coverage of Slut Nights in reliable secondary sources: almost all of the article is sourced to butch-femme.com, and this site helps to organize the events it describes. We can only have an article on something, whether it exists or not, if there is third party coverage in reliable sources. Providing such sources, rather than anecdotes or systematic bias claims, is the best chance to save this article from deletion. Geometry guy 21:28, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Lacks independent, reliable and non-trivial coverage demonstrating notability as a topic. DreamGuy (talk) 21:39, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to Butch and femme for now. Fences and windows pointed out to me frm one of the articles - We conduct Butch-Femme socials here in the San Francisco and Oakland area about once a month. Most of our members are from Butch-Femme.com. At one of our socials, - to me this suggests slut night were born out of butch femme social events, not started by but instead promoted by Butchfemme.com. Based on this I think merging to Butch and femme or even moving to Butch-Femme.com might make more sense and rework the material based on wherever it goes. IMHO WP:CSB plays a significant role here, butch and femme women are not well represented or even acknowledged in mainstream media, for whatever reason. I don't expect to find mainstream reports on their main social nights although some likely do exist. No one is disputing any of this information is true just the significance/notability; as the best known social organizing event of butches and femmes this would certainly be acceptable information in that article. As an alternative Butch-Femme.com might be another option although I would simply incorporate everything into the main parent article, Butch and femme, instead. -- Banjeboi 21:46, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Minor comment - I think the issue with respect to the sources is as much verifiability as notability. Everything said in the butch-femme articles might be true, but some at least are written by one of the site's founders, and are thus self-published. Since anyone can start a website and publish whatever claims they like, WP is rightly reluctant base verifiability on self-published sources.KD Tries Again (talk) 23:30, 11 September 2009 (UTC)KD Tries Again[reply]

Delete - this looks like a poorly sourced advert. - Schrandit (talk) 12:07, 12 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.