The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 00:22, 24 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Princess Kaoru Nakamaru (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • Stats)

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Seems to be a hoax. Princess Kaoru Nakamaru refers to a personal website as a source. Associated with conspiracies, shadow governments, 2012 doomsday, and a psychic who can speak with the reptilian aliens. She speaks about some 5th dimension, Noodle, and secret societies. The matter of 'Princess' is well also another matter entirely. Its on the Japanese Wiki [1] and numerous Youtube videos. Seems entirely fake. Actually so much of the information (even in the stub) is wrong, no claim to notability or meetings with kings and leaders or being a journalist. Mere self-promotion of these claims, no evidence to support them. Found a book which refers to Nakamaru stating that (Nakamaru's knows) the daughter of Princess Masako (of Japan) never occurred and used changeling for when the time came. [2] Other more fringe matters are abundant. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 19:28, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• • Withdrawing the nomination. Completely rewritten, verifiable sources added. Page move done, article is basically new. Barnstar given to Michitaro for endeavoring in this work. May the Japanese Wiki use this as a guide for restoring the subjects article. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:47, 23 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment — Heres's some further redux on this subject: Nakamaru was born in China as the daughter of Shigeko/Naruko(?) Nakajima (中島成子) a nurse for Japanese Red Cross, and a Chinese father named Han Jingdong. Her mother claimed to be a descendant of Tatsukichirō Horikawa (ja:堀川辰吉郎), who himself was rumored to be an illegitimate child of Emperor Meiji and a woman named Kotoko Chikusa. The credibility of these claims is highly questionable, and they don't appear in particularly reliable sources. If this article is kept because it represents a notable fringe personality, it should be retitled without "Princess," and the subject should not be called "Princess" in the prose aside from describing her claim of descent. Virtually nobody is legally a princess because of descent from Emperor Meiji; it's impossible through illegitimate lines or females. JFHJr (㊟) 22:17, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• ...Her activities in and with North Korea seem to be more or less accurately related on her website. Here's a handful that mostly corroborate the claims, though I'm unconvinced it's substantial coverage, or that the events are important at all: DPRK work, DPRK again, journalism, "commère"/journalism again ("commère" is indicative of low journalistic quality), and TV guide indicating broadcast in the USA. She's WP:FRINGE, but she's not a hoax. JFHJr (㊟) 22:54, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Authors-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 23:10, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Japan-related deletion discussions. ★☆ DUCKISJAMMMY☆★ 00:09, 13 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. Lots of claims, but no reliable third-party sourcing to verify notability or justify a Wikipedia article on the subject. --DAJF (talk) 01:01, 13 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment. Much of what she claims is likely false, but it is true she was a nation-wide television personality in the 1970s. She did have her own show that was broadcast around Japan in which she interviewed global personalities. See for instance this TV guide from 1973. She's probably a loon, but probably a notable one. Michitaro (talk) 01:25, 13 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment. Japanese Wikipedia does not have her. I would tend to think she would be covered there if she were that notable. •••Life of Riley (T–C) 18:45, 13 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: ja:中丸薫. Whether she's covered in another Wiki isn't very relevant anyway. JFHJr (㊟) 19:12, 13 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment She does not appear to be the same individual listed in JFHJr's post, she neither claims that position in her bio or on the Sun page (they differ in accounts and history) Typically one would cite this claim on their own biography and the only thing I can find is a different date and year for this North Korea one as a 'guest of state'. Your source says 1993. This Nakamaru says she went in 1996. [3] Thus we are not discussing the same individual it seems. It appears that your results are just looking for the name popping up in various places, its similar to citing 'John Smith' in any book. This is why I put it up for deletion, absolutely nothing checks out against the sources. You may have a TV guide that has her own Follow The Sun organization. Said she was invited to the former Soviet Union in 1989... but it didn't break up to 1991. And helped stop the US military from attacking Iraq in 1998. It gets worse from there with her American Biographical Institute entry which is a paid-inclusion vanity biographical publisher. Whose awards are denounced as scams. Same for the UK based International Biographical Centre. Considering the fact she says she's been to 160+ countries and met with the leaders of those countries, I find it hard to believe in light of the evidence against. We need more reliable sources. She claims honors throughout all of journalism. She claims to have wrote 40 books, some which as used as 'handbooks on foreign policy'. Yet I cannot find one under the ISBN author search. The claim of Princess comes up in some sources as minor mentions, usually as a colorful character, the roving TV journalist from London? Other issues of the TV guide (the PBS one) is well... not really notable or verifiable because it seems to have been a public access thing. If she was really important and famous, met these leaders and gotten these awards (the Sadat one doesn't even match up with the paper either), wouldn't there be reliable independent coverage of this? Anyone who claims to have interviewed President Regan, Ford would be notable and it should be covered. Same goes for North Korea's line of leaders, Egypt and Iraq. Even preventing a 1998 US air-bombing in Iraq would be verifiable right? The issue of vanity publishers and awards do not help for credibility. Let alone the fact the information in the two sources of her bio change almost all the key information about dates and important events. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 19:30, 13 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• I agree regarding credibility of this subject overall — conflicting information supports this conclusion. Many claims she makes are objectively incredible, especially her own importance and fame. However I'm quite sure this is the same person as in the links I provided above, and the same as the one that Michitaro discussed. The name is not a "John Smith." That said, I don't think any of what the links show actually indicates she is notable. JFHJr (㊟) 20:28, 13 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

She is the one and the same person. She seems to be presenting herself differently depending on the audience. As for her books, a WorldCat search shows she has published dozens of books from some of the major publishers in Japan: Tokuma Shoten, Gakken, Kodansha, Bungei Shunju, etc. (See also here.) Some of her early books are held by major universities, like this one. Again, I can agree she is a crazy person who makes lots of unbelievable claims, but I'm afraid she is a notable crazy person. Michitaro (talk) 23:23, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Here's a few links to help. First, Shukan Shincho table of contents (2004/8/26) with the article: "Nakamaru Kaoru, the "Grandchild of Emperor Meiji," reported as a fake by a Korean newspaper" (and Japanese tabloids don't do a report on such a person unless they're notable); an Oricon database link listing some recent TV appearances, including one on "Asa made nama terebi," a famous TV debate program in which she appeared to debate the imperial family system (I found a lot of blog entries on this appearance, such as here); a David Bowie fan site with a link to her interview with Bowie; a DVD set of one her interview programs (the sample is her interviewing Calvin Klein); a photo of her with Gaddafi (who knows where from, though). Just a few things I could find in a few minutes of net searching. My impression was that she was a straight, notable journalist until the 1990s and a good search of older Japanese publications will find records of that and confirm her TV work. Its after that she goes off the looney deep end. Michitaro (talk) 00:49, 15 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The mixture of fake and real is troubling, but incredible claims require incredible evidence. Not one source attributes her to preventing war, yet she claims it. If she really is notable then do we leave it as a stub or do we actually put back in these fringe theories she supports? I still see conflicting information about the reports, but I'm concerned about her meeting with Henry Ford as well. Didn't Henry Ford die in 1947? I wonder about the verifiability of these claims of meeting so many world leaders on a personal level. According her statements she also had the video broadcast across Japan and the world from within North Korea when Il-Sung died, yet I see no attribution. Anyone find it? The vanity press issues set off red flags for me, being touted as honors. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 01:38, 15 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Here we are charged first with determining whether she is notable. Personally, I am inclined to say yes. Before she became a purveyor of conspiracy theories and made grandiose claims about her lineage and her activities, she was a well-known TV personality and journalist. That, I think, is provable. That I think is sufficient to prevent deletion of the article. What the article actually says is another matter. There, I think we just have to enforce Wikipedia policy about RS: everything said about her activities needs reliable sources--which cannot include anything she herself produces. For now, I can imagine a short stub mentioning her journalistic background, keeping only to things we know for sure (the TV Tokyo show, Bowie, Calvin Klein, etc.), and finishing with a note about the controversy about her claims over being related to the Meiji Emperor. The title of this stub, of course, could not have "Princess" in it, because that is not proven. Michitaro (talk) 02:40, 15 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Let's start with this: even if all her claims were true, she still could not be a Japanese princess. In modern history, the title has never run matrilineally or to illegitimate children, and since WW2 it has become incredibly restricted. No reliable third party sources call her a princess. So if keep, then MOVE to Kaoru Nakamaru and DELETE the page in question; it shouldn't even redirect.

Secondly, there's a serious insufficiency with notability guidelines as to journalists; this is a recurring theme at AfD. From past AfD discussions, it seems to require a sort of WP:WRITER-meets-WP:PROFESSOR-and-WP:ANYBIO, though journalists are not necessarily known for either creativity nor academia. But it seems appropriate to factor the subject's duration and impact in the field of media, as well as enduring coverage; objective negative factors include non-anchor, local-only, and segment/backpage-only, but a lack of negative factors can't really indicate notability either. At any rate, a journalist's notability would require substantial coverage in several, or passing coverage in many, reliable sources. Not every national TV show is encyclopedically notable.

I'm convinced this subject doesn't pass WP:GNG or other existing bases for notability; note that Michitaro's comments about having published books, or even having anchored, have no bearing on notability currently. Interviewing important people doesn't necessarily make one notable. And thankfully, plenty of non-notable loons (even perhaps fairly known among 120 million of 7 billion people) are well-published and fail GNG, ANYBIO, and WRITER because there's nothing encyclopedic to say. But I'm on the fence about notability as a journalist, since I've previously found consensus against my deletion proposals for what I considered borderline at best. Plus, I know notability guidelines don't get re-written here, so I'll !vote and just work with whatever result.

As for the possibly encyclopedic contents: it's possible to biography this subject by putting into prose a list of her national broadcasts, international broadcasts, and her notable interviews (not notable interviewees). It could include her claim to descent from Emperor Meiji if it's so much as commented in reliable sources, but otherwise between WP:BLPSPS and WP:RS, that and the subject's other more outlandish claims are right out. I believe everything Michitaro says. But it needs that reliable third-party coverage. I'm even willing evaluate if it's produced in Japanese, scanned e-mailed microfiche prints or whatnot (特筆性があったらきっと存在するんで). But a tabloid reporting her secondhand as "fake" (偽者) isn't doing it. JFHJr (㊟) 03:59, 15 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Weak keep – Well, move and delete, per above. I'm on the fence as to notability as a journalist and author. I hoped to find a reliable source giving her more recent claims some straight-faced treatment; that would be alright. I hope this is listed on journalism, television, and Japan projects; I'd be interested to see the views of participants there. JFHJr (㊟) 03:59, 15 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete There shouldn't be a "guessing game" as to the notability. The third party references are non-existent or missing. If they appear in the article before Afd closes, I will revisit the debate. Stormbay (talk) 21:35, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep (but with the proviso that "Princess" be dropped). This was no guessing game. Third party references exist. If people are still not satisfied, please do this search. This is a keyword search for her name at CiNii, the periodical index put together by the National Institute of Informatics, a government sponsored agency. This only covers mainstream, mostly intellectual periodicals and comes up with 28 hits, mostly articles by her in major magazines like Bungei Shunju, but also including several articles on her in journals like Shukan Shincho. I also did a Magazine Plus search and came up with 40 hits, including more in magazines like Shincho 45 about her. Given her recent loonyness, and the fact that she was a TV personality, one would expect that she would be covered more in the popular press, which are less covered by these databases. If people want, I can go to the library and search the Oya Soichi Bunko index, the main index for popular periodicals in Japan. JFHJr does pose important questions about the problems of judging the notability of journalists. I would suggest in this case treating her not only as a journalist, but as a TV personality (her main claim to fame was her interview TV shows), in which case WP:ENT might be relevant. Japan, after all, tends to turn many people into "tarento". In that case, criterion 1 might be applicable: "Has had significant roles in multiple notable films, television shows, stage performances, or other productions." Given that she has hosted multiple national TV shows, that might fit here. Michitaro (talk) 12:41, 17 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete in its current state, at least. Right now, we have serious concerns that basic aspects of the biography of this living person are even verifiable. The article is a one-sentence stub sourced only to her personal website. This is no state in which we can retain a mainspace article in accordance with WP:BLP. Now, Michitaro's comments do raise the possibility that a policy-compliant article about her could be written, but we can't retain the aforementioned stub on this basis. I recommend that Michitaro, or anyone else interested in the subject, write a userspace draft of a serious, policy-compliant article that is thoroughly referenced to reliable published sourced, and then move that back to main space (where, if deemed necessary, it can again be made subject to a deletion discussion).  Sandstein  05:32, 20 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Following Michitaro's meritorious rewrite mentioned below, changing opinion to provisional keep. We now have a practically new, sourced article, whose references I can't check because I can't read Japanese, but which at any rate would need a new deletion discussion because most of this discussion no longer applies to it.  Sandstein  06:52, 23 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete as hoax. Former revisions stated that she is the granddaughter of the Japanese Emperor, spending her early childhood in the Forbidden City in China. Impossible and utter nonsense. Therefore the current stub has no credibility and should be deleted. -- P 1 9 9 • TALK 17:35, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment. On the suggestion of Sandstein, I have largely rewritten the article using reliable sources, including a Newsweek profile from 1974 (which I copied from the library), which did call her the Edward R. Murrow of Japan. I have eliminated "Princess" from the article title, and only mentioned her claims of ancestry as a matter that is publicly disputed. Suggestions on further changes are welcome. Michitaro (talk) 18:55, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment. Kudos to Michitaro on a "meritorious rewrite" indeed, and to Sandstein for his lucid and fair-minded comments - a truly inspiring demonstration of what makes Wikipedia go. Thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Imunuri (talk • contribs) 08:10, 23 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment Following a complete re-write I propose (as nominator) this be closed. All the fake information has been removed, the page has been moved so the fake honorific is gone and that the disputed nature of that claim is noted. I'm glad we have actual sources for the actual career points. It avoids the fact of 'Henry Ford' interview which I believe (at least that Henry Ford I think of first) died in 1947 and it also keeps out some of the more controversial aspects she has been associated with. I'm not against some of the 'Youtube' comments or other cited material (if it can be cited properly), but the article deserves to stay at this point. Very good job Michitaro. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:41, 23 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.