The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. And move to Political prisoners in Francoist Spain, and rescope accordingly.  Sandstein  09:11, 13 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Political prisoners in Spain (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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POV fork of 2017 Spanish constitutional crisis; and Coatrack (using the neutral "Political prisoners in...", and a brief background on Franco, to create an article about the 2017 jailing of Catalan independence supporters. Scolaire (talk) 08:58, 6 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: The nomination refers to this version of the article. The alternative version is still a coatrack, using it instead to talk about what a wonderful democracy Spain is. Scolaire (talk) 08:58, 6 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions. Scolaire (talk) 09:17, 6 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. Scolaire (talk) 09:17, 6 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Spain-related deletion discussions. Scolaire (talk) 09:17, 6 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. While I share Scolaire's concerns on both versions, Wikipedia:Deletion is not cleanup. The article topic itself is notable, and we have several parallel articles for other countries - e.g. Political prisoners in Yugoslavia, Political prisoners in Saudi Arabia, Political prisoners in Syria as well as a category "Category:Political imprisonment by country". I don't see how this article should be a POVFORK of 2017 Spanish constitutional crisis (as Franco prisoners won't fit there, nor will any long-term imprisonments from the current situation should they develop). Franco era (pre 1977) imprisonments are definitely notable. As for the current Catalan situation - I agree this shouldn't be the main focus of the article, though it might increase in scope later (e.g. the international arrest warrant for Puigdemont is relevant, however he hasn't been imprisoned in Spain as of yet).Icewhiz (talk) 09:28, 6 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) As stated, it is a POV fork of 2017 Spanish constitutional crisis. This is clear from the original version. Nobody is interested in writing an encyclopaedic and neutral article on the general topic, only in POV-warring. Deletion is the proper action. Scolaire (talk) 09:51, 6 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I agree the original version of this article had severe POV issues. However the subject itself it notable - mainly due to Franco era prisoners. 2017 should be kept out of this article until the chips falls (and we actually see RS referring to the current situation in 2017 as a case of political imprisonment).Icewhiz (talk) 12:05, 6 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep As stated above, there are already a number of articles titled "Political prisoners in ...." including Political prisoners in Saudi Arabia and Political prisoners in Syria. I started the article 'Political prisoners in Spain' because there is no doubt that Spain had a relatively recent period during which large numbers of political prisoners were held, during the Franco era, and there were claims being made that the recent jailing of two political activists marked a return to Spain jailing political opponents. Unfortunately, some editors refuse to accept that an article about Political prisoners in Spain could ever be valid as Spain is a democracy. My intention in starting this article was to provide an article where relevant, sourced information is presented so that readers can learn more about this issue. It is sad that some editors are repeatedly deleting sourced information to which they object - that is not how Wikipedia is supposed to work. The article has now been proposed for deletion which, I suppose, is the ultimate way to remove material which editors find politically unacceptable. As a relatively recent recruit to the Wikipedia family, I find this all quite sad. Lin4671 (talk) 09:37, 6 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Now supporting move:WP:POVFORK from Human rights in Spain trying to push the WP:FRINGE theory that there are political prisoners in the 17th most democratic country in the world (according to the EIU Democracy Index with no credible sources supporting the fact - clear breach of WP:NPOV. There are political activists who claim there are political prisoners in Spain, the US, Britain, Germany, France and every single democratic country in the world. However, this is an encyclopedia and WP:COATRACK political activism on the Catalan question does not have a place in Wikipedia. Specific politicians being arrested for breaking laws of democratic countries is not the same as political prisoners. In Spain a lot of politicians are arrested precisely due to the country's strong separation of powers as a highly democratic country - recently the president of Madrid region Ignacio González González and in the past the interior minister José Barrionuevo. Would we have an article on Political prisoners in the United Kingdom over Islamists such as Anjem Choudary being jailed? No. If this editor wants a section on allegations of there being political prisoners in Spain, a section in Human rights in Spain or in any article related to the 2017 Spanish constitutional crisis is the adequate place to explain these allegations, not creating a POV fork pretending it is an undisputable fact by creating this article. Such a view is not mainstream and is unsupported by any credible source.Sonrisas1 (talk) 10:13, 6 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 12:16, 6 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Law-related deletion discussions. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 12:16, 6 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep I don't see the problem, the article is mostly about pre-1977 Spain which was highly dictatorial and had a whole bunch of political prisoners. If the bit about " accusations of the existence "political prisoners" have been made by certain political parties " if that section is really a POVFORKFRINGEPOVCOATRACKTHING, then by all means remove that section, but there is still plenty of topic left. Dysklyver 16:24, 6 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Please see my note above. The nomination refers to this version of the article, where the pre-1977 stuff is used as a coatrack to hang an article on 2017 Catalonia and the arrests there. The alternative version (it has been changed twice already today) simply changes it into an "isn't Spain wonderful?" article. No attempt has been made to write an encyclopaedic and neutral article. Scolaire (talk) 16:48, 6 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep -- The present article is now not a POVFORK or COATRACK, being quite different from the Catalan crisis article. The difficulty is with deciding who is a political prisoner (i.e. imprisoned for his political beliefs) and who is imprisoned as guilty of terrorist or merely of criminal offences. I think it is fair to say that the post-Civil War prisoners were political, though many may have been imprisoned for fighting on the losing side. I suspect that the Basque separatists were imprisoned for terrorism, not peaceful campaigning; but I may be wrong. The offence of the Catalan leaders is clearly political, though it may be dressed up in charges of embezzlement for improper use of state funds for the referendum. However so far the independence parties have tended to be calm in the face of some very aggressive policing; clearly this is a political issue. Peterkingiron (talk) 17:21, 6 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment Can you source that statement? Or are we going to move Wikipedia into the era of post-truth?Peterkingiron

Re-voting below: I refute any assertion that I was doing anything that is "post-truth", though I may have been expressing an opinion as to Possible future events. Peterkingiron (talk) 23:31, 8 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Keepnow supporting Move to Political prisoners in Francoist Spain despite my near-constant frustration (see the page's history and talk pages) with frequent bad editing practices on both sides of this dispute, and my view that the article has frequently veered deep into WP:COATRACK territory, the subject itself is notable because of the history of political prisoners during the Franco era. What needs to be kept off the page is information warring related to modern events in Catalonia. All of this should be restricted to no more than a paragraph.--Calthinus (talk) 18:22, 6 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. while the page was previously an anti-Spanish COATRACK, it's now loaded with [questionably sourced PEACOCK defensively bragging about Spain's impeccable democracy]. I find this to also be unacceptable. This page doesn't need deletion, it needs guardianship by honest editors committed to a high quality and neutral encyclopedia. Although if the problems seem intractable, I may have to switch my stance to delete.--Calthinus (talk) 20:12, 6 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Calthinus You have not addressed the sourcing issue. Is there any credible source which states there are political prisoners in Spain? If not, this page is simply propaganda. Sonrisas1 (talk) 07:27, 7 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

There are copious sources on political imprisonment in Franco's time - and Wikipedia article don't cover the current status, but rather the subject throughout history - e.g. Political prisoners in Yugoslavia covers a dissolved country. Regarding political prisoners in the current Catalan crisis, there actually are quite a few RS dealing with this - e.g. Bloomberg Guardian Washington Post - but frankly for the most part it is WP:TOOSOON beyond a brief mention here. If Spanish authorities persist in holding these politicians for a significant period of time and we have various human right orgs and RSes calling them political prisoners (as opposed to jailed politicians) - then it should be increased. In any event this article meets GNG due to Franco regardless of current events.Icewhiz (talk) 07:46, 7 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Reply Then it is a POV fork from Human rights in Spain or Francoist Spain. The original intention is patent from the editing history of this article. A place to dump propaganda specifically related to the Catalan (and eventually Basque) political issues. I do not see any similar article about countries which, like Spain, are categorized by the EUI Democracy Index as "Full Democracies" (United Kingdom, Denmark, Sweden, Canada etc.) or even about those categorized as "Flawed democracies" (United States, France, Italy etc.) I would also note that in terms of civil liberties Spain is rated 9.41, same as Netherlands, Austria, Switzerland and the Nordic countries and higher than the United Kingdom (9.12). Wikipedia does not need this - it is pure propaganda. If for some total failure in Wikipedia's capacity to enforce its own rules due to high presence of activist editors, this page was not deleted, the article name has to be changed to something which is not inherently POV. This article does not add value to the project. It having not yet been deleted is literally a disgrace to Wikipedia. I also not that you implicitly accept in your vote/comment that no RS exist supporting the article.' Sonrisas1 (talk) 08:08, 7 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment:Icewhiz I don't want to enter into a discussion on the content but in the light of your grandiose statement about how it is evident (to you) these politicians will eventually be declared political prisoners by NGOs/RS etc if they are not released, I feel the need to respond. We cannot keep an inherently POV article from being deleted based on your hopes that in the future sources will vindicate your erroneous beliefs. You are voting based on your strong ideological bias in the Catalan question. You don't seem to understand basics of how the law works in democratic countries. In such systems the law applies to everyone equally. There are no exceptions. If Catalan politicians (who have already been released on bail by the way) are convicted by a Spanish judge of committing a criminal offense they may (they should) serve jail time according to the Spanish penal code. This will not be a political imprisonment. It will be an imprisoned politician, as there are dozens in the country. In Spain as in other EU countries, following a political agenda (including independence) is not a criminal offense. If not, Juan José Ibarretxe would have been arrested for attempting (legally) to secede from Spain with the Ibarretxe Plan in the mid-2000s. If not, the members of the independence parties who are in the Spanish parliament such as Gabriel Rufián who are being paid 10,000 euros a month by the Spanish tax-payers for abusing Spain and Spaniards daily, would be in jail. The Spanish courts prosecute or jail dozens of politicians a year for corruption - mostly members of the ruling party Partido Popular. If there is any flaw in Spain's democracy it is that the state prosecutor has historically given orders to go soft on corrupt Catalan leaders such as Jordi Pujol to facilitate the formation of government in exchange for political favors aimed at nation-building. Then it is only when a corruption scandal affects a nationalist party do we hear screams of "Political Prisoners" such as Oriol Pujol. Coming to this article and voting keep not based on Wikipedia rules but only your own overwhelming bias and ignorance of the topic at hand is not called for. Focus on Wikipedia rules, not on your own misconceptions. Sonrisas1 (talk) 08:39, 7 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You misread my comment - which was conditional with an if. At present it is clearly TOOSOON. If these people are held for some time AND there are enough sources calling them political prisoners - then the article should reflect this in the future. This may or may not happen. Political imprisonment during the Franco era was a real issue that could definitely be treated as a standalone here.Icewhiz (talk) 10:01, 7 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Icewhiz Perhaps I did misread it. No one denies there was repression in Francoist Spain. But the title of the article strongly implies current repression. Former victims of Francoist dictatorship, such as (Catalan) victim of Francoism Carles Vallejo, have publicly denounced the use of the term political prisoners referring to the leaders of Omnium and ANC.http://www.foroporlamemoria.info/2017/10/entrevista-a-carles-vallejo-preso-politico-del-franquismo/ Sonrisas1 (talk) 10:42, 7 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Sonrisas1 you also did pretty awfully misrepresent my position. You might note that I have been consistently removing material that is not about the Francoist era from the page, tagged it with the recentism tag, and so on. As for the OR claims well, Icewhiz responded well to that. Of course there are multiple points of view on the issue. I don't think Wikipedia should tackle that at hte present time-- which is why I am now suggesting we officially make the page about hte Franco era (see below). What say to you to that proposal? --Calthinus (talk) 14:12, 7 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

If I did I apologize Calthinus. I think your proposal is fine. In fact it is surprising there is no section on political repression in Francoist Spain. There should be.Sonrisas1 (talk) 14:15, 7 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Sweet, feel free to put the support in bold. Cheers :), --Calthinus (talk) 14:18, 7 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. It seems a nonsense, unbalanced page, without historical context and intended for POV about recent events. We should not create such poor pages in Wikipedia, pages as this one are just a shame. --BallenaBlanca (Talk) 12:18, 7 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Move page to "Political prisoners in Francoist Spain", per Calthinus. --BallenaBlanca (Talk) 17:03, 7 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• I'm switching my position -- Move page to "Political prisoners in Francoist Spain". On the one hand, I have come to agree with Scolaire that salvation is not likely for this page in its present form. However, as I have mentioned elsewhere, and as Icewhiz has brought up, the topic is quite relevant with regards to Francoist Spain. As for political prisoners in the present day, it's a mix of POV and CRYSTAL at best and a bit too soon to have a page on those. Therefore, I recommend we make the fact that the page should actually be about the Franco era official, move the page, and delete all material pertaining to the current Catalonia crisis. Thoughts? --Calthinus (talk) 14:09, 7 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Move, per Calthinus. Also, delete material on the Basque Country and Arnaldo Otegi; sources only say that he sees himself, or is seen by supporters, as a political prisoner. Note that, as nominator, I am hereby changing my !vote. Scolaire (talk) 14:25, 7 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• switch vote to Move Scolaire, for the record, I added the Otegi bit (surprisingly). I thought it was relevant since its when we first started hearing about "Political prisoners" discourse in democratic Spain (Pablo Iglesias, leader of Podemos for example, referred to him as a political prisoner). But anyhow, I support Calthinus and your proposal. Sonrisas1 (talk) 14:36, 7 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Icewhiz, Lin4671, Dysklyver, Peterkingiron, we seem to be moving towards a consensus on moving the article to "Political prisoners in Francoist Spain". Your contributions came before this was proposed. Would you consider switching to support for a page move? Scolaire (talk) 13:15, 8 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  Beyond keeping the article, I'm neutral, at present, between the two names.Icewhiz (talk) 13:32, 8 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  I am generally supportive of such a move, the Francoist period is the most relevant time period for looking at political prisoners in Spain. I will note that in effect we are saying there will also be such articles as Political prisoners during the Spanish inquisition and Political prisoners in 16th and 17th century Spain and possibly others, but this is no bad thing. I will note there will probably be attempts to create Political prisoners in Catalonia and other attempts to get this recent Catalonia POV issue back out there. Dysklyver 14:08, 8 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  However, under this suggested paradigm, all info about the modern crisis will be systematically removed and restrained from the page. If they want to cover it, it would necessitate creating a new article. Perhaps that may be appropriate in the future, depending on how things unfold. For now, it is too soon. As for the inquisitions and etc, nobody seems interested in discussing those but if they did there is plenty of room for material on either their respective pages or a new page. I note that when this page was created, it was created only to cover modern events-- the Franco stuff was added by myself and others who came later.--Calthinus (talk) 15:10, 8 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You are quite right Calthinus, it is too soon to make this kind of affirmations. It is important, for example, the position of Amnesty International that, despite considering the charges of sedition and prison excessive [1], does not consider them political prisoners [2] --BallenaBlanca (Talk) 22:09, 8 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I think Dysklyver understood all that. It's implicit in his answer. Given his edit summary, we can take it that he is in favour of your proposal. Scolaire (talk) 15:23, 8 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I am currently neutral on the name - but I will note that if this one moves to Franco and (as it seems quite possible, but not certain - we wouldn't have to have a consensus they are political prisoners just enough sources alleging they are) a separate Catalonian political prisoners of Spain meets notability guidelines - then the latter would place the Catalan/Spain political situation in much greater prominence that such prisoners would receive in an across-era article (where too much focus on them would unbalanced).Icewhiz (talk) 15:43, 8 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

In case it's unclear I do think it is a good idea to change the title, and as Calthinus correctly pointed out, this would resolve the problems with the article. I have no doubt the Political prisoners in Catalonia issue will settle at some point and we can consider the merits of such an article then (or sooner if POV warriors insist). Dysklyver 16:03, 8 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Move to "Political prisoners in Francoist Spain", per Calthinus and others. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 20:49, 8 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep as "Political prisoners in Francoist Spain", per others and purge of material on other subjects. At present the article is tackling two other subjects. Imprisonment by Spain of Basque activists and Trials of Catalan independence activists. I think both these are NPOV titles, which avoid the contentious question of whether a crime is political. The prosecuting authorities will invariably say that it is not. Peterkingiron (talk) 23:31, 8 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment:Peterkingiron, I may have understood your rationale/explanation incorrectly, but you seem to agree with the growing consensus, so I suggest you change your vote to Move?Sonrisas1 (talk) 12:37, 9 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

He said "Keep as Political prisoners in Francoist Spain", which means exactly the same thing. Scolaire (talk) 14:18, 9 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Got it, Ill change his bold so it is clear. Sonrisas1 (talk) 14:42, 9 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Also I have left my !vote above as keep, but I am assuming at this point it will be renamed, and fully support the rename. Dysklyver 14:31, 9 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

By all means treat my vote as Rename and purge. However, there is also post-Franco content in the article and I was musing on what to do with that and how we might find a home for that material with a NPOV title. Describing Basque terrorists and Catalan activists as political prisoners to adopt a POV on their treatment. Peterkingiron (talk) 17:30, 10 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like full consensus. I suggest close and rename.Sonrisas1 (talk) 10:24, 12 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I concur, the closing admin may at their discretion want to move protect the page and/or this existing title. Dysklyver 11:30, 12 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.