- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. The issue here is the existence of sufficient reliable sources. There is no agreement about this. The same applies if one disregards all contributions by editors primarily active in the Balkans topic area, or all who didn't bother to actually discuss the sources. Sandstein 19:22, 9 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Plav-Gusinje massacres (1912-13) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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WP:POVFORK of Plav and Gusinje. Although the burden of proof is on the creators of this article, I made an effort to track down a secondary, reliable source that unequivocally describes a large-scale massacre in Plav or Gusinje in 1912/1913, to no avail. When making claims about the massacre of hundreds or even thousands of people, rock-solid sources are needed, preferably in English, as per WP:EXCEPTIONAL and WP:V. This article suffers from a lack of reliable, WP:SECONDARY sources to substantiate almost all the claims made in it and instead largely cites WP:QUESTIONABLE sources, a major WP:REDFLAG. I will elaborate on these below. Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 16:49, 2 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Montenegro-related deletion discussions. Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 16:49, 2 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Serbia-related deletion discussions. Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 16:49, 2 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Among the WP:QUESTIONABLE sources mentioned above are:
- Rexhep Dedushaj's Krahina e Plavë-Gucisë nëpër shekuj, whose publisher is unidentified. See [1] According to academic Peter R. Prifti, Dedushaj is a secondary school teacher and political activist, not a scholar. See [2]
- SANA, the media arm of politician and mufti Muamer Zukorlić (claims 800 killed and 12,000 forcibly converted)
- Another questionable source is Marijan Premović's article, which was published by the Bosniak Academy of Sciences and Arts (BANU; not to be confused with the Academy of Sciences and Arts of Bosnia and Herzegovina). BANU is an ethno-political NGO that was founded in 2011 to "protect and promote Bosniak cultural, national and religious identity and interests". Its president, Ferid Muhić, has been known to promote fringe views, for example claiming that Serbian and Croatian are eastern and western variants of the Bosnian language. See [3] Some Bosniak scholars have described its foundation as "an attempt by Muslim clerics to increase their influence". Šaćir Filandra, a political science professor at the University of Sarajevo, has called BANU "marginal" and "illegitimate". Among its founders is the accused war criminal Ejup Ganić. See [4] This is clearly a WP:FRINGE organization.
Among the sources that are used in violation of en.wiki guidelines is:
- Robert Elsie's Kosovo: A Short Documentary History, which is a collection of primary documents, and is cited uncritically and without attribution in violation of WP:PRIMARY.
The only WP:RS, English-language sources that mention atrocities in Plav and Gusinje during this time are Sabina Pacariz's Yearbook of Muslims in Europe and a Balkan Insight article reporting that unnamed "Bosnian organizations" claim that 1,800 were killed and 12,000 forcibly converted. Both of these sources merely report that commemorative ceremonies took place, and the claims stemming forthwith, not whether or not there is any veracity to these claims. Unequivocally claiming this in WP:WIKIVOICE instead of attributing it to the unnamed "Bosniak organizations" mentioned in the Balkan Insight article, as the article does and Maleschrieber did here , is a clear violation of WP:SYNTH. The 2013 commemoration can certainly be mentioned in the Plav and Gusinje articles and cited to the two RS referenced in this article (Balkan Insight and Pacariz) with the attribution "Bosniak organizations claim..." Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 16:52, 2 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Side comment: I have been expanding this article, although I didn't create it. It would be nice if the nominator who has mentioned my username here, also informed/pinged my talkpage about this but he never did so. Getting to the sources:
- The point in an AfD procedure is to establish notability or the opposite of it, not to argue that a source is not RS or that is POV, so since the beginning every argument of the nominator is not valid because it doesn't discuss notability but if the article is POV or not.
- The sources do discuss this topic extensively, so it is notable. I will take some time to discuss some of the RS claims about the article, not because that discussion is related to this procedure, but because I just want to reply to the allegations by Balkanicus. Rexhep Dedushaj, is a historian from Gusinje whose book is on its 4th edition offline. It is regularly used as bibliography by historians like Marenglen Verli, member of the Academy of Sciences of Albania in his work about Plav/Plav-Gusinje/Gucia (it has full bibliographical details - I used the same). Premović's article was published in Almanah, which is a peer-reviewed journal that is hosted online on CEEOL, a leading provider of academic e-journals and e-books in the Humanities and Social Sciences from and about Central and Eastern Europe., from where I got the citation. If Balkanicus wants to discuss about CEEOL or Almanah or Premović, there's RSN about that.
- Sabina Pacariz, also in the bibliography of the article writes: President Filip Vujanović joined the cerenomy, where he stated the crimes performed in Plav and Gusinje are the dark side of the Montenegrin history and later she also writes: On 5 March 2013, in a joint organisation of the Islamic Community of Montenegro together with the Islamic Community and Cultural Centre of Plav and Gusinje in New York, Janazah—a funeral prayer in the sports hall in Plav was organised. Under the name 'Vakat zuluma' (the times of tyranny), the prayer was performed to mark the passing of 100 years from the forceful conversions and killing of Albanians and Bosniaks in Plav and Gusinje in the years 1912-1913. Approximately 2,500 Albanians and Bosniaks from Montenegro, Serbia, Kosovo, Bosnia and Herzegovina and from the usa joined the funeral prayer.
- Elsie-Destani have published documents from the Balkan Wars and WWI about the situation of the Albanians in the Balkans. The fact that there are extensive primary documents that mention even the names of those killed in these events only proves its notability even more, it doesn't diminish it.
- Full quote from Galaty, Michael; Lafe, Ols; Lee, Wayne; Tafilica, Zamir (2013). Light and Shadow: Isolation and Interaction in the Shala Valley of Northern Albania. The Cotsen Institute of Archaeology Press. ISBN 1931745714. which I still haven't had the time to add in the article: Warfield's letter also addressed the claim, made at the time by Edith Durham, that the Montenegrins were persecuting Albanians who lived in their territory and driving them out of their villages. He reported that 2000 Albanians had come over the mountains from Gusinje and Plav and were refugees in Shkodra. [William Warfield was Director of the Red Cross Unit in Albania in the Balkan Wars]
- Full quote (to establish the notability of the event - not as a source to be used because secondary modern bibliography, already in the article, explains the same event in much detail): In the primary sources of the era about the region this massacre appears in many of them. Rebecca West was a famed travel writer of her age. In the book, Black Lamb and Grey Falcon she specifically [link to blacklisted site removed] writes] just about the village of Plav (not the region as a whole): An unfortunate contretemps occurred here during the Balkan War. When Montenegro captured the village of Plav from the Turks in 1912, they were greatly aided by a local Moslem priest, who joined the Orthodox Church and was appointed a major in the Montenegrin Army. His first action when left unsupervised was to hold a court-martial on his former congregation and to shoot all those who refused to be baptized. They numbered, it is said, five hundred. She is referring to Mulla Hajro Basic/Basha/Bashiqi who changed his named Balsa Balsic for a certain amount of money and was used by the Montenegrin army as a "local judge" to condemn many locals to death.
- Conclusion: I didn't create this article but I have been expanding it and many more sources exist, so the current bibliography will be expanded too. But the existing bibliography also establishes notability beyond doubt. This is an event which a)is discussed in bibliography b)is mentioned in diplomatic documents of the era c)influences mass events in Montenegro and the diaspora from that country d)is an event about which the President of Montenegro has apologized about. So why are we discussing the notability of an event which Montenegrin society, primary sources from that era, secondary bibliography and the lived experience of the descendants of the people of the region clearly recognize and don't treat like something that needs to be "proven"?
- Speedy keep per the above this shouldn't have been nominated for deletion. I know that the Plav-Gusinje/Plava-Gucia region hasn't been discussed as much as other areas in the Balkans in bibliography, so I understand why Amanuensis might not know much about the region, but IMO he should retract his nomination.--Maleschreiber (talk) 00:44, 4 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 08:27, 4 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 08:27, 4 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 08:27, 4 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- @Mztourist: Michael Galaty is a professor of MSU and director of Cobb Institute of Archaeology of Mississippi State. Why do you think he is "partisan"? The rest are also distinguished in their field and pass RS criteria. But again I have to stress that regardless of what we think about a source and its partisanship notability is not judged by that. Also, let me say this again: The President of Montenegro where Plav and Gusinje are located has apologized for these events. If the president of the country has done so, why would you think that these are just "vague claims by apparently partisan writers"?--Maleschreiber (talk) 11:23, 4 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Because specific detail of the supposed massacres is lacking. Galaty is used only once as a reference and only in relation to refugees and not as to the massacres themselves. The other sources are so vague as to be of questionable value. The opener for the Milosevic article is: "More than 2,000 Bosniaks and ethnic Albanians prayed together to mark the 100th anniversary of what they allege was genocide against their ancestors." Mztourist (talk) 12:17, 4 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- @Mztourist: You've misunderstood what is meant here. In the Balkans, there's a debate about whether any such event of mass killing can be described as a "massacre" or more than that as a "genocide". See Srebrenica massacre for example. The verb "allege" was chosen to describe that dispute in a neutral way, it doesn't have to do with the event itself. The event iself is something about which the Montenegrin President has apologized. How do you explain that if the event isn't notable or hasn't happened?--Maleschreiber (talk) 12:26, 4 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- I haven't misunderstood anything. Just as in the Vietnam War, one side will say a massacre occurred, another side will say nothing or something minor happened. Having the Montenegrin President say "the crimes performed in Plav and Gusinje are the dark side of the Montenegrin history" doesn't tell me anything about whether or not massacres occurred. Without RS I don't think we should have pages claiming massacres. Mztourist (talk) 12:37, 4 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- The sources do refer to the massacres in a straightforward way. In the case of Milosevic, it's important to undestand the context here. In contrast to the Vietnam War, in the case of Srebrenica (or Gusinje-Plav or any other such event) nobody is disputing whether it happened or not, but whether it can be called a "massacre" or a "genocide". Milosevic writes that much when without attribution she mentions The collective religious ritual took place on Tuesday, in the municipality of Plav in eastern Montenegro, to mark the anniversary of mass killings of Bosniaks and Albanians nearby 100 years ago. About the Montenegrin President the parts I cited from Pacariz (2013) are:
President Filip Vujanović joined the cerenomy, where he stated the crimes performed in Plav and Gusinje are the dark side of the Montenegrin history. [..] On 5 March 2013, in a joint organisation of the Islamic Community of Montenegro together with the Islamic Community and Cultural Centre of Plav and Gusinje in New York, Janazah—a funeral prayer in the sports hall in Plav was organised. Under the name 'Vakat zuluma' (the times of tyranny), the prayer was performed to mark the passing of 100 years from the forceful conversions and killing of Albanians and Bosniaks in Plav and Gusinje in the years 1912-1913. Approximately 2,500 Albanians and Bosniaks from Montenegro, Serbia, Kosovo, Bosnia and Herzegovina and from the usa joined the funeral prayer.. Why do you think it doesn't refer to the massacres just because he used the word "crimes" when in the same page the author explicitly refers to them as "forceful conversions and killing"?--Maleschreiber (talk) 12:52, 4 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Your weak arguments do not change my view on this. If there was a massacre there should be RS, but there aren't, so it should be deleted. Mztourist (talk) 17:49, 4 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- @Maleschreiber: This discussion isn't about other massacres, so please avoid arguing WP:WHATABOUTX. You haven't addressed the fact that there isn't a single a secondary source that unequivocally refers to the alleged massacre in Plav/Gusinje. Regarding Michael Galaty, nowhere in the passage you provided does he mention a massacre, only the fact that another person said 2,000 people were displaced from the area. Referencing third-person accounts claiming that 2,000 were displaced from the area in 1912/13 and using this to support the conclusion that there was indeed a massacre around the same time in which 1,800 people were killed is WP:SYNTH and original research. Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 20:00, 4 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete Terrible sources and multiple problems, which have previously been clearly stated. It would work better as a part of a bigger articles (with proper references). Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 16:41, 4 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep -- It is not a POV fork because neither of the articles of which it is alleged to be a fork say much on the subject. Even if the accounts are not ideal, the fact that some people believe it happened should be enough to justify having the article, particularly as both sides appear to have joined in a commemoration event. It is certainly a bad article, but it is not a pure HOAX. Personally, I would like to learn whether the 12,000 people who allegedly went through a baptism ceremony in fact stayed Christian: My guess is that many did not. The right outcome for a bad article is to improve it and find sources (which will probably not be in English); and in the meantime tag it for improvement. Peterkingiron (talk) 17:04, 4 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- @Peterkingiron: Assuming good faith on the part of the creators, I too wouldn't classify this as a WP:HOAX. However, with everything else you've said I respectfully disagree. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. Shouting, "but it's true!" or "but there must be sources!" at the top of one's lungs doesn't change the fact that there is a noticeable lack of WP:RS to verify most of this article's content and that the only salvageable portions are the two sources reporting on the 2013 commemoration, which don't affirm the validity of the claims being made. My proposal is quite reasonable -- mention the 2013 commemoration in the history sections of Plav and Gusinje. As per WP:DESCRIBE, "don't create a standalone article on a topic that can be described briefly in another article". In this case, the topic is the 2013 commemoration and accompanying claims, the only thing that can verifiably be included on Wikipedia. The threshold for inclusion is verifiability, not truth. Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 20:00, 4 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- More sources:
- About the forceful conversions and the beginning of the events: Kolë Krasniqi, Islamist Extremism in Kosovo and the Countries of the Region, p.19
- About the total number of casualties: Jusuf Bajraktari, The Kosova issue--a historic and current problem: symposium held in Tirana on April 15-16, 1993 Full quote: In 1913, 4 000 Albanians in the vicinity of Peje and Gjakove alone, and 8 000 in Plave and Guci, were shot after refusing to renounce their Moslem or Catholic religion and their Albanian nationality. This was published by the Academy of Sciences of Albania. You can certainly claim that in the article it should be used with attribution to the author, but notability of the topic has been established here.
- I will continue the expansion of the article tomorrow as I was somewhat busy the previous days, but I'll be posting bibliography here too.--Maleschreiber (talk) 12:02, 5 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- News reports in the local press: Memorial of the first person who was killed in the massacre.[5]. List of the 700 who were killed in total in Previ [6]. --Maleschreiber (talk) 14:29, 6 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- I've doubled the article's content based on existing and new bibliography. @Peterkingiron: Šarkinović (2013) says that two or three families remained Orthodox. What I didn't know was that forced conversions also included some Catholics who were forced to become Orthodox. What is also interesting is that a fatwa was issued which - in order to save more lives - allowed the Muslims to convert without fearing that they have sinned. It sort of reminded me of the Oran fatwa. --Maleschreiber (talk) 21:18, 6 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.