The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep per WP:SNOW. (non-administrative closure) -- RyRy (talk) 01:09, 1 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Owen Lloyd (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

He played three games for the Edmonton Oilers? I don't see anything significant about such a feat, except evidence of a general bias on Wikipedia towards sports and entertainment figures. Owen (talk) 21:55, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep- He's an athlete who competed in a fully professional league. If Wikipedia had been around in the 70s, and someone had started an article on him during his playing career nobody would bat an eye. Since notability does not degrade over time, this is a clear keep. Reyk _YO! 22:27, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• I have no issue with his playing in the 1970s. I just don't find "professional athlete" makes him a shoe-in for a Wikipedia article, any more than does being a professional plumber. That he only played three games suggests his professional career as a football player was less than notable, and this article offers no evidence to the contrary. Owen (talk) 22:37, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep Perceived bias or not, WP:ATHLETE says that competing in a fully professional league, like the NHL, is enough to assert notability. The number of games played does not factor in. Addionne (talk) 22:34, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Since when were we slaves to the notability guidelines? The guidelines exist as suggestions, not as hard and fast rules. Owen (talk) 22:38, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Calling the guidelines suggestions is a bit of an understatement. They're standards, supported by consensus, that Wikipedia editors are generally expected to follow. There may be rare occasions when it's right to ignore the guidelines, but these are usually cases where following the letter of the policy or guideline would violate the spirit of it. That's not the case here. I believe WP:ATHLETE has it more or less right, that it's not justifiable to ignore the guideline on this occasion, and that Mr. Lloyd is notable enough to be included in this encyclopedia. Reyk _YO! 22:57, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• I tend to be more of a deletionist, however I think that it is perfectly likely that any professional sports player, past or present, would be researched by Wikipedia users. As such, we should provide as much of a resource as possible. At least he's not a reality TV star.  :) Addionne (talk) 23:02, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Hockey-related deletion discussions. -- Fabrictramp | talk to me 21:18, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep Meets WP:ATHLETE in that he played in a fully professional league. Not only that but at the time it was one of the two top leagues in the world for professional hockey. Nevermind his minor league career. -Djsasso (talk) 21:21, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. Besides clearly meeting WP:ATHLETE, a gsearch and gnews search show good indications of notability. If someone has access to newspapers of the era, notability will easily be shown, as most professional athletes, even if they've only played a game, get a lot of significant coverage. If you have an issue with WP:ATHLETE, pointy AfD nominations are not the way to go about it.--Fabrictramp | talk to me 21:26, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Question is there a source that he played for the Oilers? According to Hockey DB he was drafted by them, but they do not include any stats for him in the NHL. Blackngold29 21:48, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep reading farther down the page. It lists his time with the team which was in the WHA at the time. Even if he didn't he played in other pro leagues which still meets WP:ATHLETE. -Djsasso (talk) 21:52, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • The official Oilers site lists his stats - he had 1 assist and 4 PIM in 3 games played as defenseman. Addionne (talk) 12:25, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep per WP:ATHLETE. Thanks Djasso. Blackngold29 22:05, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep: I quite agree with Fabrictramp. While WP:BIO is far too loose where athletes are concerned, the way to change that isn't to take a Wikipedia-wide accepted notability guideline and say "well, it doesn't count because I don't want it to count." The way to do that is through changing consensus about the rule itself, and best of luck on that, because many have tried.  RGTraynor  22:02, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Weak keep. It's sourced that he played in the WHA, a top-level pro league in North America. However, there's not much to the article other than an intro and his stats. It's not a good article, but it meets the notability/verifiability guidelines. —C.Fred (talk) 22:33, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. Played in a top professional league. Merely playing in a professional league would have made him notable per the aforementioned athlete guidelines. Patken4 (talk) 21:32, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.