The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Michig (talk) 10:08, 1 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

National Landing (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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I have looked through the first 2500 results of a Google Search for "National Landing" -Amazon (that is show me results for the phrase National Landing that do not also mention Amazon) and have found no such mention referring to this neighborhood. It seems to have been a phrase entirely invented in the last few days. It is entirely possible it will have lasting notability, but we simply don't know that yet. I suggest that a redirect is preferable to deletion - given the intertwining of this term and Amazon HQ2 I suggest it redirect (or perhaps a merge and redirect) there. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 02:15, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Washington, D.C.-related deletion discussions. DannyS712 (talk) 02:16, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Virginia-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 04:28, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep -- Passes WP:NGEO... (Full disclosure, I am original author)... numerous independent sources have provided SIGNIFICANT coverage ~19,600,000 ghits , and public officials such as the Governor of Virginia have recognized it as a "place." The fact that your search string includes "-Amazon" is what makes it lack any coverage. Yes, NL is newly announced in the last several days, and is closely associated with HQ2, BUT that doesn't make this WP:RECENTISM, it just makes it a new geographic reference that encyclopedia readers will want to understand when it is referenced. Amazon HQ2 is not a PLACE, it is a corporate headquarters located in at least two places. National Landing is a place that will include Crystal City, VA, Potomac Yard, VA as well as other places. MPS (talk) 16:44, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Please delete this This place does not even exist yet WP:TOOSOON, ALL descriptions of this place are in fact Crystal City, nobody even knew what this place was until the Amazon announcement (because it doesn’t exist), it was created for Amazon, there are no reliable sources to cover it outside of recent Amazon HQ2 reporting, and it will not be remotely notable until next decade at the earliest.Trillfendi (talk) 18:05, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

when you say "there are no reliable sources to cover it outside of recent Amazon HQ2 reporting" I think you are not using the definition of Reliable Sources correctly... the fact is that many independent and reliable media sources, completely unaffiliated with Amazon, have covered the creation of this zone. It was WIDELY reported. There is also no question that there is government recognition of this new location designation -- The Governor of Virginia and the two official local government entities (the city of Alexandria and the County of Arlington) have officially vouched for the "reality" of this place. What other "reliable sourcing" do you need? What are the conditions under which the essay known as WP:TOOSOON no longer applies? Are you saying National Landing doesn't "exist" until they get a post office or something? Peace, MPS (talk) 21:26, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I do not want to speak for Trillfendi but speaking for myself my notability concerns are that notability is not temporary and we do not know, as a lagging indicator, if coverage of this name will be sustained. I could have made this point more clearly in my nomination and this is why, I feel, the lack of coverage outside of Amazon is important to this discussion. National Landing might be a vibrant community in 5 years or it might be mocked as an attempt by a corporation and government officials to rebrand parts of a city. We simply don't know yet. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 21:35, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

MPS When I say outside of Amazon reporting I'm not talking about the blog in which they post company announcements. Common sense. This location in the current state is an abstract idea. That governor announcement even mentions a metro station that, again, does not exist because it hasn't been built yet. They talk about these locations as if they're already there (again, it's Crystal City and Pentagon City that they're rebranding) but every headline is some variation of this, this, and this. I'm certainly not taking a politician's press release over facts. "National Landing" is Crystal City and Pentagon City right now (which are really just Arlington anyway). As it stands, there's simply nothing to write about–I mean you gave 3 sentences for heaven's sake.Trillfendi (talk) 22:08, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Honestly I think I know how you both may feel. Several years ago in Richmond, Virginia, city leaders tried to "rebrand" Shockoe Slip and Shockoe Bottom to become the "River District" ... They had a website and everything... It was widely covered and a lot of locals were like, "that is dumb, there is no such thing" ... wikipedians ended up archiving the "place" on Neighborhoods of Richmond, Virginia rather than give it its own article. I understand the desire to redirect to HQ2, but if you want to redirect, I honestly feel National Landing should go to a list of neighborhoods (and have a description of boundaries etc), not redirect to a corporation HQ article. The complicated thing is that NL crosses borders of municipalities, so it would have to be Neighborhoods of Northern Virginia and not Neighborhoods of Arlington. The other thing is that some list pages (such as list of sandwiches) have a rule that says you to establish article nobility before they will allow on their list. I don't see the harm of a stub article with clear notability that sits for a while and aggregates information as it becomes available. Where do you see this emerging information as best being housed on wikipedia? Peace, MPS (talk) 22:15, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep Some of this discussion seems to have been based on the confusing description "planned suburb", which I've just fixed in the article. It's not a planned suburb; it's a new name for existing suburbs. Notability isn't based on whether or not locals will use the name (as is discussed in this article devoted to the topic), but rather on coverage in RS. The name has received enough coverage to meet notability, including articles about the name itself, and it continues to be used, for example in articles covering Virginia Tech's plans for its new Innovation Center (e.g., [1]). Eperoton (talk) 22:44, 18 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. There are dozens (hundreds? thousands?) of reliable sources discussing this place/place name. I think this becomes especially clear in light of Eperoton's well-considered edit from "planned suburb" to just "area" -- and there may be other ways to frame it that could be better still. Per local authorities, it is not "just Crystal City" but rather a wider area that, the authorities say, should be considered under one umbrella. Yes, the name first became public because of the HQ2 project, but that's why you can't run a Google search for it, exclude the word Amazon, and conclude there aren't any reliable sources left. Of course any mention of the area is going to mention Amazon! Even if the name sticks and starts dotting highway signs and postcards in five years, 99% of the reliable sources about it are still going to mention Amazon because HQ2 is going to be a huge part of the identity of the area going forward. And conversely, as long as Amazon and the local governments and commercial interests are using "National Landing" to refer to the neighborhoods around HQ2, the name will have some currency and notability through sustained coverage of that development as it grows. The name may or may not "happen" long term, but in the near to mid term, the name and the concept of the overall area are notable and amply documented. Readers will continue to seek information about this place that continues to be mentioned in news articles, and rather than surprise readers with a redirect to Crystal City (which is also factually incorrect) or a generic "Neighborhoods of ___" article, Wikipedia should bring them to an updated, well-sourced article about the place they want to know about. As a result, I agree with MPS that the best course is to keep the page, maintain it as things develop, and if it turns out that the name ultimately does not stick, it can then perhaps be moved under a neighborhood list subject to the caveats above. I believe the "not temporary" guidelines support and even require this: "Notability is not temporary; once a topic has been the subject of "significant coverage" in accordance with the general notability guideline, it does not need to have ongoing coverage," but notability may be reassessed from time to time in future AfD discussions. -EightYearBreak (talk) 19:28, 19 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Redirect and Partially Merge into Crystal City, Arlington, Virginia without prejudice toward recreation if the name sticks. Quoting from WP:SUSTAINED: "New companies and future events might pass WP:GNG, but lack sufficient coverage to satisfy WP:NOTNEWSPAPER ... If reliable sources cover a person only in the context of a single event, and if that person otherwise remains, or is likely to remain, a low-profile individual, we should generally avoid having a biographical article on that individual." It seems clear that what we're talking about here is an entity that has only been covered in the context of a single event. Until the neighborhood is covered in a context not directly related to Amazon's announcement, I don't think it satisfies WP:NOTNEWSPAPER. Regarding what to do for a redirect, I think it should go to Crystal City because people who search for it on Wikipedia are going to be looking for an a description of the neighborhood, and even though National Landing doesn't exactly correspond to Crystal City, it's the closest match among entities that have articles. Some of the information can be merged, so long as it doesn't violate WP:UNDUEWEIGHT. - Sdkb (talk) 05:54, 21 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Would you consider the Virginia Tech Innovation Campus and/or the Redevelopment of Potomac Yard (neither of which are in Crystal City or Arlington) to be indicators of sustained (not a single AMAZON / JBG announcement event) coverage and development of National Landing? Would wikipedia coverage of these two notable initatives be simply "dropped" during the merge because they are outside the scope of the "Crystal City" focused article? When you say "partially merged" what are you suggesting shoudl be left out? Peace, MPS (talk) 18:38, 21 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

National Landing is (in principle) a place, not a person or event. I read "not a newspaper" to be focused primarily on avoiding original research and overemphasis on details of "breaking news" that turn out not to be all that important. (Biographies, of course, are different from other articles for a whole host of legal and other reasons.) While "National Landing" as a term and concept are new, the fact that the state, the two relevant local governments, two major corporations, and a major university (at least) have all signed on to this branding should at least raise a presumption that it won't be ephemeral. It does not make sense to me to delete this article--which has verified reliable source information and could certainly have a lot more added--only to have to re-create it in six months. What's the benefit there?

I also do not think a redirect and merger to Crystal City makes sense. The point that has repeatedly been made is that the National Landing concept was created specifically to include more than just Crystal City. If this article does not provide a sufficient description of the neighborhood, the easy fix is to add it. Alternatively, as of this writing, the first sentence says "National Landing is an area in Northern Virginia encompassing parts of the Crystal City and Pentagon City neighborhoods of Arlington County and the Potomac Yard neighborhood in the city of Alexandria that has been announced as one of two locations for Amazon.com, Inc.'s HQ2 headquarters project"--with links to each of the existing neighborhood articles for readers who want more color than this article provides right now. One further change that might be made to improve this and contextualize it more regionally would be something like "...that has been announced as one of two locations for Amazon.com, Inc.'s HQ2 headquarters project (in Crystal City), as well as the location of Virginia Tech's planned Innovation Campus (in Potomac Yard)." --EightYearBreak (talk) 19:57, 21 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@MPS: I wouldn't consider either of those articles indicators of WP:SUSTAINED, because both prominently mention in the headline the single news event that all of the coverage of National Landing has been tied to so far (Amazon's decision to locate there): "Helps Attract Amazon to Washington, DC Region" and "as part of Amazon deal" respectively. Regarding merging, the notable parts of the article that involve Pentagon City or Potomac Yard can easily be merged into those respective articles. - Sdkb (talk) 20:52, 21 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

What if we just renamed the article to Redevelopment of Crystal City and Potomac Yard ... there is ample coverage over the last 4 years of the new Metrolink bus service and other transportation changes (see transportation section), the development of Potomac Yard to include a new metro stop (see Potomac Yard section) the redevelopment of Oakville Triangle (see article Oakville Triangle and VA Tech section) and the branding campaign (New section added today on the branding)... what you have is a redevelopment of "The Area On The Potomac By the Airport" that has been occurring for years and now has emerged with a municipally-approved name and a high-profile anchor tenant. I just think that this redevelopment is neatly encompassed by the article title "National Landing" Peace, MPS (talk) 21:15, 21 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

What would be the advantage of that over just incorporating that info into the existing articles for the neighborhoods? I don't doubt that there are significant activities happening in the area, or even that some economic trends are shared between the neighborhoods, but I don't think we can create an article about it until National Landing is widely recognized as a single neighborhood, which it just isn't yet. I should also mention that it's clear you put a lot of really solid work into the article, and I think the majority of it can be kept and used to improve Wikipedia by merging it into existing pages. - Sdkb (talk) 22:26, 21 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@EightYearBreak: The fact that the portion of WP:SUSTAINED I quoted above mentions companies, events, and people, all by way of example, indicates to me that it is meant to apply to any entity, including a place. - Sdkb (talk) 20:52, 21 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Redirect and Partially Merge into Crystal City, Arlington, Virginia for all the reasons Sdkb said. It's a reasonable step to take at this time, and it allows for the decision to be revisited if Amazon and JBG Smith succeed permanently in their plan to rebrand the area. --Steve Foerster (talk) 15:05, 21 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: As discussed above, it is not just JBG and Amazon... the separate municipalities of Arlington County and Alexandria BOTH recognize this name, as well as the Governor of Virginia. It may be a branding effort, but it is not simply a corporate effort. Government is involved. Specifically, the two separate governmental entities who have juristiction over "National Landing" areas. Peace, MPS (talk) 18:38, 21 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. A proposed new geographic subdivision need not even come into existence to be notable, if it receives sufficient coverage in reliable sources. See Jefferson (proposed Southern state). bd2412 T 03:17, 23 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep Per MPS's rationale. --1l2l3k (talk) 20:44, 23 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. I think there is lasting notability, given that (1) this is sufficiently covered that it meets WP:GNG and will receive enough future coverage to meet WP:SUSTAINED; (2) the National Landing article would give an undue amount of weight to the Crystal City, Arlington, Virginia article if it were merged; (3) it is recognized by the respective governments of Arlington County, City of Alexandria, and Commonwealth of Virginia; and (4) National Landing was just announced, so of course there would be relatively few search results. If it turns out that National Landing is completely coterminous with something else, then sure, we can merge these articles epicgenius (talk) 16:20, 25 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. There is lasting notability since it is has a connection to Amazon HQ2. --Frmorrison (talk) 20:12, 25 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep Ample coverage of the subject to meet WP:GNG. Whether locals use the name is irrelevant, what matters is what reliable sources do. Heck, we don't even call the airport by its name. And while I'm being somewhat flippant, that's actually a pretty good example - most reliable sources call it Reagan, or Reagan National, but not just National, so that's what we do. Plus nobody has offered one iota of evidence that this name is even the slightest bit controversial among locals. Smartyllama (talk) 02:38, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.