The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Delete. WP:NOTE requires substantial coverage in secondary, reliable sources, which, as the discussion showed, is not present. Ruslik_Zero 15:54, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Mikhail Surkov

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Mikhail Surkov (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

I can't find any reliable source which would confirm that Surkov even existed, and the main claim for notability (kill count being 702) actually conflicts reports in reliable sources such as sniper books. The current sources in the article are two websites written by Russian military hobbyists, as well as a memoir in which the author indeed claims to have met Surkov. However, the more notable apocryphal sniper, Erwin König, was known from the memoirs of Vasily Zaytsev. Prolog (talk) 21:33, 12 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The first source you found appears to be quoting a Sov commander about a sniper called Surkov with 100 kills - so I think he existed; not sure if he can be notable though on this basis. Its strange -- perhaps he is a real sniper who enjoyed mention in the dispatches but with a much lower number (than 700) kills -- not sure where this leaves us notability wise as all we can say is that he existed, was a sergeant, and a sniper with gt or equal to 100 kills. Bigdaddy1981 (talk) 23:53, 14 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Its very strange --- I can find a scan of a clipping purporting to be a foto of the man; doesn't give his number of kills though which seems to be the purported claim to fame. If he is a real sniperist or even fictional sniperist that enjoyed substantial Sov coverage then I agree the article should stay --- but I am baffled that there isn't more given his alleged prowess and the Soviet wartime "cult" of the sniperist! Bigdaddy1981 (talk) 23:49, 14 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The first source is the same memoir that I mentioned in my nomination. It contains some interesting information, but with memoirs, it is always unknown how much is fact and how much is fiction. However, I rewrote the article and mentioned the sources in the article text so the readers are able to judge their credibility. Prolog (talk) 16:17, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Good job --- I agree memoirs can be misleading and they can also cover a fair bit of minutiae --- all the additional research merely underlines the subject's lack of notability. Bigdaddy1981 (talk) 19:45, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note- The link appears to be blocked by wiki's spam blocker. To visit that informtive link, replace HOTEl-with military and TABLE with suite . --Roaring Siren (talk) 16:20, 13 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Two of those are just mirrors of the very article that we are discussing! Bigdaddy1981 (talk) 01:02, 14 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
In addition to above, the first one also seems to be a user-generated content site, which are generally not considered reliable. Prolog (talk) 10:44, 14 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Curious -- The General Surkov was allegedly involved in the attempted restorationist coup against Gorbachev -- now he *is* notable. Unlikely the same Surkov though -- he would've been a very old Major General in the '90s. Bigdaddy1981 (talk) 01:17, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment --- I don't think being awarded the Order of Lenin makes you notable --- the Order was awarded more than 400,000 times and some individuals received it multiple times. If something reliable can be found about his sniping career -- in particular his number of kills that would do it for me. I am surprised that if he was as "prolific" as claimed that there are not more Sov sources available -- they really lionised their snipers; more than any other belligerent in WW2. Bigdaddy1981 (talk) 00:45, 14 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
A Google search for the Order of Lenin claim only brings up the Wikipedia article and its mirrors. Interestingly, there are even less hits when searching in Russian. Prolog (talk) 10:44, 14 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment (again) --- one of the russian language websites purported to quote a 1983 book "Last Stand in Berlin" by a I.L. Roslogo and says roughly: "One of the best snipers we had was a sergeant called Mikhail Surkov - the "Al" of the business... he had by his own account, killed more than 100 enemy soldiers and officers". Two things here -- its by his personal account (confirmed kills always were much lower for snipers) and the number was 100 -- not 701! Bigdaddy1981 (talk) 23:59, 14 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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