- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 05:18, 18 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Macedonians (Greeks) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)
The article in question has been for a long time consensually redirected to Macedonia (Greece). I don't know if this is the best solution, but I do know that this article as it stands now is a POVFORK of the aforementioned article with no scientific value, promoting the nationalistic beliefs of User:Pyraechmes who does not like the redirecting, one-sided, and overlapping with not only the above article, but with others as well (such as Macedonia (region)). Since User:Pyraechmes who edited it insists on edit-warring, I thought that the best solution is to come here and confirm officially the long-time standing consensual solution: Delete the article as it stands now, and rediret it to Macedonia (Greece). Yannismarou (talk) 10:45, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
About the article, I would like to insist on its existance. I think we should focus on the indispensability of the article and NOT on the content. The content can change. Maybe I am not good in writing articles and maybe it has no scientific value. I am sure that wikipedia users are more experts in such issues and can help in this direction. Only if we delete it or redirect it all the time we can achieve to have a "POVFORK".
About my nationalistic beliefs: It is an effective and useful LABEL to call someone "Natioanlist". It is a tested strategy to keep someone silent. In Middle Ages, they used to call someone Heretic in order to keep him silent or cancel his reliability. In modern times of freedom and republic, we just call someone Nationalist or Fanatic and his voice will bump on the wall of the LABEL.
Anyway, if you think that something of my scripts or my acts in wikipedia is nationalistic, you can tell me about it, so I could comply with your rules of behavior. And especially for this article, if you find something nationalistic, you can explain to me the reason, and we can delete it or re-write it.
In any case, the existance of an article about a subgroup of the Greek nation CANNOT cause problems. The absence of it, on the other hand, cause a lot of problems to wikipedia, to the readers of wikipedia and warrant the nationalists (like me, as you say...) to edit articles of doubtful quality.
Is it nationalistic to write about your tribe or to forbid an article about a tribe? Chrusts 11:26, 11 April 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pyraechmes (talk • contribs) 11:22, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Speedy close. AfD is not dispute resolution. Not even the nominator is suggesting that the article be deleted without leaving a redirect. -- Blanchardb -Me•MyEars•MyMouth- timed 11:29, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep - and possibly redirect if consensus for such exists, per Blanchardb. Rlendog (talk) 18:36, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete or Redirect - If Greeks with a Macedonian regional identity (a subgroup) get their own article, why are Aegean Macedonians (a subgroup) forced to be apart of Slavic-speakers of Greek Macedonia? Shouldn't they get to keep their own article also? The modern Greeks of Macedonia had no "Macedonian Greek" identity before the acquisition of Greek Macedonia, as many modern Greeks with Macedonian regional identity were Vlach, Albanian, or Pontic Greeks. In fact, if you consider population growth, non-indigenous peoples make up over 50% of the modern population in Greek Macedonia. I can provide data stating the Macedonians of the middle ages were speaking Slavic, not Greek and I can show data providing from the 1600s-today referring of Macedonians being the ancestors of the modern ethnic Macedonians (ie: Macedonians were referenced on an ethnic level). Even the Greek government wrote a book called "the Greek ANTI-Macedonian campaign" and "The contributions of the Slavic-like Macedonian on the Greek language" And Pavlos was stating their was a Macedonian language in the region of Macedonia. This is clearly a POV FORK, yesterday Greeks were arguing that Aegean Macedonians should not have their own article, today they turn into hypocrites. Mactruth (talk) 00:04, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. Greeks from Macedonia possess a strong local identity and the subject is certainly notable enough. Similar articles exist for other local Greek identities, such as Epirotes, Maniots, etc...I don't see why the Macedonian Greeks shouldn't have their own article. This is article could easily be part of the series on local Greek identities. --Athenean (talk) 04:17, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Redirect, no objection against delete. Of course we could conceivably have a legitimate article on this group of people, although (as I've often said) I cannot really imagine what it would contain that isn't already contained in the article on the region. Subnational administrative units and geographical regions don't normally get separate articles for themselves and for their inhabitants, because the coverage of those articles would be identical. (That such articles have been written for a few regions in Greece just goes to demonstrate why they are not a good idea: read those articles to see why. Those are not good models to follow. And it's done nowhere else; this format is a very strange predilection only of a few Greek editors.) But even if you want an article, I totally agree with Yannismarou that the present draft isn't it. It's too poorly written to serve even as a basis for a legitimate rewrite or expansion. Best to make it go away and have a clean slate. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:17, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Blank the page or Redirect, as a temporary measure until at least after the forthcoming Macedonia arbitration to avoid drama. The article as it is now does not conform to NPOV. However, this does not mean that the subject is not notable, since we're referring to approximately 4 million people (including the Macedonian diaspora with its associations, which incidentally are not called "Greek" but "Macedonian", meaning that the regional identity is especially strong). In any case, the article title should be in either Macedonians (Greek) or Greek Macedonians which are both redirected to Macedonia (Greece) at this point. This needs to be revisited at calmer times and when the material is better. --Avg (talk) 03:40, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep the article and make it a Stub. Sure it must be enriched with a serious re-edit. There is no reason to delete the article solely for being of poor quality or because of timing concerns. We can make it an article about the obvious truths and put the redirect in a see also section. This will encourage other Wikipedia users to enrich it. Since the subject of the article is notable both historically and demographically, and there is no objection to the name, I suggest keep but remove all POV related text. Deleting would be contrary to WP:Purpose Shadowmorph (talk) 15:14, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Just to add that "AFD is not cleanup". And I believe, many of the above arguments are problematic as covered in the below policies. I present them for anyone to have some self-critique
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.