The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Cool Hand Luke 07:34, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Lodewijk van Beethoven (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

Person only notable for being the grandfather of the famous composer. Apparent attempt by Rex Germanus (talk · contribs) to push his POV on the naming of Johann van Beethoven.  Matthead ^discuß!     O       17:22, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• hmmmm, i'm gonna have to got with Delete, not because of anything to do with Rex's edits, but because he(Lodewijk) doesn't appear to show any notability other having musical genes. If Notability is not inherited, does that mean ancestors don't get it either? I'm pretty sure it does--Jac16888 18:18, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete/Merge Userfy to Rex's userspace Knowing Matthead's and Rex's history there may be a conflict of interest in the nomination (as well as I'd suggest a rewording to maintain neutrality), still the question regarding the notability remains. And being the parent of a notable figure does not seem to be notable enough for me (worst case we might enter recursion with the parent of said notable parent). Thus, delete or merge. 84.145.195.64 18:21, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• As Rex has stated he wants to write an entire article regarding the van Beethoven family history, I think he might want to incorporate the contents into that new article. Thus I'd suggest userfy (and I'll be curious to read the new van Beethoven family article once it is done). 84.145.195.64 00:59, 30 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• STRONG KEEP. The man was a noted composer/conductor himself. The only reason why Matthead wants to delete is so he can minimize or remove any references to Beethovens Dutch origins other than his name.Rex 19:00, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Can you point us to a work of his, and where we can listen to it? - Looking forward to more Beethoven symphonies! -- Matthead ^discuß!     O       19:52, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

We? You 're not hearing voices now are you? Oh, and he was a choir conductor, so unless you have a time machine ... Rex 20:09, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The noted composer/conductor is noted for what? His German grandson. -- Matthead ^discuß!     O       20:55, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps him passing through his Dutch musical genes despite continous adding of German peasant blood is enough of a performance to be mentioned. Rex 21:01, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Rex Germanus(!) exposing once again his racist, nationalist, anti-German views - the only reason for him to start this article. Besides, his son Johann van Beethoven was an alcoholic, his treatment of Ludwig was questionable if not out-right child abuse. Dutch musical genes seem to rely heavily on Beats? -- Matthead ^discuß!     O       21:33, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If hope I misread you calling me a racist. Because 1: Germans are not race (at least, not in the books I read) and 2 I would be very much offended to be compared to such low lifes. As for Johans agressiveness... why do you link that to the Dutch side of the family. I think history sort of proves who were the 'agressive' ones.Rex 07:39, 30 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• keep the are much less notable biographies on wiki. Being grandfather of someone of the level of Beethoven in itself is already notable enough to me; being able to find back some information on a grandfather is what makes encycplodia reading fun. Arnoutf 19:36, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I wonder if you are then interested in Wikipedia biographies of his three other Grandparents also? If so, feel free to use the info at Johann van Beethoven for a start - voting by doing. -- Matthead ^discuß!     O       19:48, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Try to write proper English matthead. In English also is never position at the end of a sentence. Oh and for the record, I would read about his other grandparents, but there are no articles on them now are they? Maybe his German grandparents were just not that notable... Rex 20:09, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I would like to read about his other grandparents as well. Arnoutf 20:20, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Magdalena Keverich-- Matthead ^discuß!     O       20:52, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Always nice and interesting to read redirect pages.Rex 21:04, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. Notability is non-transferable. humblefool® 20:26, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. Notable. M.V.E.i. 20:37, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep or merge at worst: Considering the famous composer's incredibly encyclopedic importance, somehow this information can and should be salvaged. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles^Tally-ho! 21:06, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There is an article on the father, Johann van Beethoven, where the grandfather and other ancestors can be covered, too. -- Matthead ^discuß!     O       21:13, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Boy, you really want it to go don't you Matthead? Well, I'd like to use the opportunity to tell you that I'm planning on making a whole article about Beethovens ancestry.Rex 21:18, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Soft Keep This Lodewijk is NN Tiptopper 21:47, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

With NN, do you mean Wikipedia:Non-notability? -- Matthead ^discuß!     O       21:57, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete - He doesn't have an entry in the New Grove. He's mentioned in his grandson's entry, where he's described as a 'trained musician, with a fine bass voice'. His appointment as Kapellmeister at Bonn is mentioned, although the Grove article says that he 'seems not to have been a composer, unlike other occupants of such a post'. At best a very minor figure. The Grove article, btw, calls him Ludwig with a parenthetical Louis. BPMullins | Talk 22:01, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• If Rex wishes to write an article on the whole family/ancestry, then keep for now, until it can be merged there. The Bach family article could serve as a model in a way (even though the Bachs seem to be much more notable.) The New Grove contents can serve as enough verification to provisionally justify this article until then, even if Grove doesn't give him an entry of his own. Fut.Perf. ☼ 00:24, 30 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Nice suggestion, that would make it much better. Thanks Arnoutf 09:25, 30 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Weak delete. I'm willing to be persuaded that the man's career somehow makes him notable (is a 16-year-old vice-conductorship of a choir a significant thing, for example?), but at present the only real claim on notability here is that his grandson went on to become one of the greatest composers around. Notability doesn't go up and down family trees. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 02:19, 30 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Weak delete, there seems to be a non-trivial career here in an era when this was an important job, but there are so few sources discussing him and they all do so in the context of his grandson. --Dhartung | Talk 03:43, 30 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. If somebody comes up in Google Scholar[1] and [2]Google Books, he is usually notable.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  03:47, 30 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Music-related deletions. — _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  03:48, 30 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

How do these surprisingly few hits prove notability independent from his grandson? These 5 resp. 25 hits for "Lodewijk van Beethoven" compare to a certain "Maria Josepha Poll" with 4 resp.36, which is hardly surprising, as the two were married. Kudos for digging out this jewel: Beethoven as a Black Composer discussing "Beethoven's African ancestry", "perhaps an ancestor of Beethoven's was Spanish. That would open the door for African background". Yo, man! --~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Matthead (talk • contribs) 04:42, 30 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Even if he had Black ancestry, or Spanish for that matter, it wouldn't mind me. Would it be a problem to you if his family were blacks from Africa Matthead. Yo man?Rex 07:36, 30 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete, merge or userfy. Non-notable as an individual. -Freekee 04:26, 30 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep Grandaddy Ludwig is mentioned both in The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians and The Harvard Biographical Dictionary of Music in connection with the more famous Beethoven. He was a bass at the court in Bonn, which established a family dynasty of noteworthy musicans. Ghits are a bust, as he is often referred to as "Ludwig van Beethoven", elder. Chubbles 06:01, 30 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly, "in connection"! Not on his own right. And that's the way it should be treated here, too.It's just a sideline. Look at those five pathetic sentences, only three of them contain somewhat interesting info. That's not enough for an article. Gray62 15:57, 1 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep-very interesting historical person.--Molobo 11:53, 30 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Not enough information to warrant an article. Nothing provided so far makes the case that the granddad was an important enough person to be mentioned seperately in any encyclopedia. Gray62 15:51, 1 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep or merge to Johann van Beethoven. Certainly it is of interest and notability that Ludwig came from a family with a long history of musical talent. --Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 16:37, 1 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete His only notability is in relation to his grandson, so any information on him should be there. He was apparently musically talented, but that, in itself, does not establish notability per WP:MUSIC. Sχeptomaniac^{χαιρετε} 21:13, 1 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Merge/Redirect to Beethoven, Johann van Beethoven, or userfy for "entire article regarding the van Beethoven family history." — AjaxSmack 21:45, 1 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Not notable enough. He was a minor choirmaster and a singer; I see no evidence he composed anything. Some famous grandsons have famous grandfathers (see Charles Darwin/Erasmus Darwin or Felix Mendelssohn/Moses Mendelssohn). This doesn't fall into that category and sets a bad precedent for a proliferation of articles about famous persons' non-notable ancestors. --Folantin 15:14, 2 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep- being related to someone this famous just gets him in, I'd like some more info though...JJJ999 05:48, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep or merge to a single article on the lesser Beethoven family members. He appears to be in Grove, and that should be good enough, given that we seem to have articles on every single release by every single band that ever got signed by some indie label, few of which have any references at all outside their own MySpace. Cruftbane 20:45, 6 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep or Merge to son's article. --Sc straker 01:32, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.