The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Consensus seems to suggest that the list is trivial or indicriminate, and thus unsuitable for inclusion. Editors wishing to rewrite the page may simply recreate it under a different title if necessary. –Juliancolton | ^Talk 00:15, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

List of oldest NHL players[edit]

List of oldest NHL players (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

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The article contains no important, or notable, information. iMatthew ^{talk • take my poll} at 01:23, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete per WP:NOT#IINFO. A very trivial intersection of age by occupation. I wouldn't even consider this notable if it focused on the oldest playing players. Resolute 01:32, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete, aside from whether this type of information is pertinent, it's unverifiable. This article was raised at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Ice_Hockey#List_of_oldest_NHL_players where Patken4 pointed out that the five oldest players were deceased but the date of death is unknown. I confirmed this with a glance through the 2008 NHL Official Guide. Since many of these players are very marginally notable by virtue of playing a game in the NHL, their date of death may not be found, so the ages at which they died isn't known. Maxim_(talk) 01:50, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Strongly Keep, if this article deletes, would you consider deleting List of oldest living Major League Baseball players? Marc87 02:17, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• WP:WAX Resolute 03:58, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Although not a post-requisite, that needs to be deleted also. Corpx (talk) 23:02, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Absolutely. Niteshift36 (talk) 16:32, 1 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep or redirect sigh, WP:NOT#IINFO as I have mentioned before is rather misused, and is under dispute for good reason. Regardless this article does not fall under WP:NOT#IINFO. very well written article. Ikip (talk) 02:25, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This debate has been included on the , List of oldest Major League Baseball players and Talk:National Hockey League page(s), which are related to this deletion discussion. User:Ikip

• Well written aside from being massively incorrect in many places, as noted. If you don't like IINFO, how about WP:GNG? I would be quite curious to see the sources that argue it is notable to have been both a former hockey player and old. Resolute 04:03, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep - Certainly not indiscriminate, as the universe of NHL players over 85 years old is limited. Don't agree with the nominator that the information is unimportant or non-notable. Not convinced that the information is not verifiable, even if two sources don't provide enough information, as there are generally many sources for dates of death (not just hockey-specific sources) if anyone wants to investigate them. Rlendog (talk) 02:44, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• If you don't mind, could you name all of the 85 year old players in NHL history? I'm finding it difficult to think of any, myself. All I see here is a list of old people who just so happened to have played hockey at one point. Resolute 03:58, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• KeepComment As Rlendog mentions the list is certainly not indiscriminate. The information can be verified, just not easily perhaps. -DJSasso (talk) 03:14, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ice hockey-related deletion discussions. —DJSasso (talk) 03:16, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Question What was the source used for this list? If it was hockey-reference.com, or a similar site, then much of this list is surely wrong (as I am interpreting it, anyway - I don't quite understand why the "Living NHL players" only includes some of the players who are identified as alive). Those sports database sites are fine for stats, but I've never known them to be diligent about adding death dates. Zagalejo^^^ 03:30, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete: "Very well written article?" Err, it's pretty much crap. The "Unknown" section is a laughfest in of itself, with two people on it older than any verified human ever to live. Beats me where the main section draws its information, but Total Hockey reports the 2nd through the 10th players as being deceased; this is leaving aside readily researchable tidbits such as the listing for Hobie Kitchen (3rd on the list), where the last reported sighting of him was as a wino on the streets of New York in 1934. The article completely lacks any references at all, and this falls under the category of an article so flawed that the only thing to do is delete it and start from scratch, with an eye towards a more exacting title (such as List of oldest living NHL players) and thorough verification through reliable sources.  RGTraynor  03:58, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete this, Re-create as an accurate, well-sourced article. The subject matter may be notable, but not in the current state. There are still many mistakes in the list, even after Marc87 deleted the first original five entries. Of those on the current list, many are deceased according to a book published over 10 years ago. Those that want to keep the article should at least clean up the article to a reasonable state and re-create, as RGTraynor points out. List of oldest living Major League Baseball players is a well sourced and fairly accurate depiction of the subject. This article is poorly sourced and very inaccurate. Patken4 (talk) 04:05, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete in its current form its too inaccurate to stand as an article. if someone wants to step forward, research and reformat the data, and recreate an article more like the aforementioned baseball player article, great. I understand eventualism, but as in biological evolution, every life form must be viable in the present moment, even as it transforms over time into new adaptations. this article doesnt stand as a work in progress to my eye.Mercurywoodrose (talk) 06:21, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong Delete - Absolutely trivial list that serves no meaning. What does a current age of a retired hockey player have to do NHL or the player's career? Should we start listing NHL players by height? weight? glove size etc?Corpx (talk) 09:09, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep, as such a list is definitely relevant to hockey fans. But, as Patken4 suggests, rewrite and resource. Rather than creating a new one, I think it would be easier to keep the present article as a template but rework it thoroughly. McMarcoP (talk) 10:35, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment: Mm, I see that Marc87 has made a lot of changes, and the article's scarcely less of a mess. Every player "older" than 102 has been removed, players older than 90 are in "List" while players younger than 90 are in a new "Living NHL players" section (???). The renamed "Unknown" section has the ages removed for the top 20 players only. So ... has the list gained anything in accuracy. No. Total Hockey lists seven of the new top ten "Living" players as being deceased, and since (as Patken says) it's ten years old, I don't hold out high hopes for the other three. Come to that, there's this thread that if accurate - and these folks sound like they've done some legwork - means the top twenty-six "Living" names on this list are inaccurate [1].  RGTraynor  13:17, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete as this appears to be more of a trivia article. GoodDay (talk) 22:25, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete, because there is not evidence that the subject matter (oldest NHL players) has received any attention. If there is coverage in sources of 'oldest NHL players' then I would recommend keep. Quantpole (talk) 13:56, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete for many reasons, the most pertinent being that it's original research. Unlike the MLB list, which at least started off having a source for the oldest living players, there is no such list for NHL players except for a rough estimate on the hockeydb.com forums, which of course is not a reliable source. Also, as has been pointed out, this list is very very inaccurate. I've compiled a more accurate list at User:Canadian Paul/Hockey on this topic, but the reason that I never moved it to mainspace is A) There are waaaay too many players in the "possibly living" category and B) It's a product of my research and, more so, research at the hockeydb.com forums, so either way not a reliable source. In any case, if the decision is to delete and recreate with a more accurate version, then my version is less detailed, but far more accurate. Only players who are 90+ are listed, but there's hidden text up to 1924. I note, however, that I wouldn't recommend a re-creation because the sources just aren't there to create a fully accurate and verifiable list. Just noticed that someone posted the link to hockeydb... mine is essentially the same, though there are differences. Cheers, CP 02:34, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. Being the oldest surviving player (and hence also listing previous now dead candidates for comparison) is in fact often the only notable thing any source ever comes up with for a hockey player, even for someone who played 490 league games, see this obituary for example. The nomination reason is totally weak, and was disproveable with a 5 second google search, and it thus strikes me as a speculative nomination from someone who just doesn't like the article, or doesn't need it, or otherwise has no interest in it, a.k.a on of the numerous arguments to avoid. It is not inherently unverifiable, nothing based on simple facts such as d.o.b. ever is. I haven't looked into it, but if this nomination is the result of a dispute elsewhere in another sport, it should be thrown out on sheer principle. MickMacNee (talk) 16:20, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. It should only get more accurate over time. The topic of oldest living player is one that comes up regularly among those with interest in the sport. That is what the article should focus on. I think it needs work and probably should be renamed oldest living NHL players. I agree that it is not valuable on the level of many articles, but that is a POV. As for sources, the database of the Society for International Hockey Research is accurate and reliable for birthdates. While many players from the old days of hockey have disappeared without reliable reporting of their deaths and that is a problem, it is diminishing. The Hockey Hall of Fame also has information on births and deaths of players. Alaney2k (talk) 18:41, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete/Rewrite Is this worth completely rewriting to be oldest ACTIVE player? That's something far more source-able, I imagine. Baseball-Reference keeps track of it for MLB, for example. Staxringold _talk^contribs 01:18, 1 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete..but... Needs sources and confirmation to save. Otherwise who is to say its accurate? perhaps the scope of the page should be scaled back. right now i have alot of original research worries, nothing can be verified, are any of these people alive still and can this be verified. The article istelf acknowledges some players cant be verfied. But basically it seems like original research. I would think a list of oldest players who are actively playing or have played is more relevant (ie Gordie howe, Chris chelios). just my thoughts Ottawa4ever (talk) 16:12, 1 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. A pointless list that I believe runs afoul of WP:NOT#IINFO. Niteshift36 (talk) 16:32, 1 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.