The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep.

There are three policies that come into play. WP:INDISCRIMINATE, WP:NOTDIR, and WP:LISTN. Sources support the inclusion criteria for each while the delete camp's 'need' is not an argument is not supported by policy or figures. It was arguable this should have not been re-listed a third time considering the building consensus to keep after the first two re-listing. The final nail is the continued keep consensus following the last re-listing. In regards to the rename, it can be decided at an editing level now that notability has been discussed at the AfD. (a bold non-admin closure) Mkdw ^talk 09:27, 10 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

List of ice hockey players of black African descent[edit]

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Most of the players are indicated to be "bi-racial" on this list, and that doesn't necessarily mean that they identify as "black" at all, nor does it necessarily imply "black African" descent. There are white Africans, and black Jamaicans, neither of whom may consider themselves "of African descent" black or otherwise. This is really an unnecessary list that is more than covered by the nationality templates on the individual articles. This is another list that was tweaked, having originally been at List of black ice hockey players, which is even more ambiguous in nature. MSJapan (talk) 04:25, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. ★☆ DUCKISPEANUTBUTTER☆★ 12:09, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ice hockey-related deletion discussions. ★☆ DUCKISPEANUTBUTTER☆★ 12:09, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Procedural Keep: While I'm not sold on the notability on the list, the nom has failed to advocate a legitimate ground to delete. Whether a person "identifies" himself as having black ancestry or not has very little connection with whether he is of such ancestry; to reference the nom's own example, a black Jamaican has African ancestry however much he might reject the characterization. Demonstrably, this list is heavily sourced, and we can only -- failing those sources being impeached -- place reliance upon their characterization. Ravenswing 02:41, 21 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Keep: The concern expressed in the nomination about who is counted as black is not unique to this article. Unless Wikipedia is going to remove all reference to the race of people in all articles, it will remain an issue that hundreds (if not thousands) of articles must deal with and have, for the most part, dealt with successfully. Furthermore, given that it seams that fewer than 75 black people have ever played in the entire history of the NHL, the list seems significant enough to retain. 99.192.82.244 (talk) 12:14, 21 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Rename to List of ice hockey players of African descent. we categorize by ethnic identity, or by nation/continent of origin, but not by race, Wikipedia:Categorization/Ethnicity, gender, religion and sexuality should apply to lists as well.Mercurywoodrose (talk) 20:29, 21 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: The page Wikipedia:Categorization/Ethnicity, gender, religion and sexuality is deeply confused. It names, at the top of the page, Category:Black Canadian people as an example of a page listing by ethnicity, yet that category defines its members as being of one of a variety of ethnicities, all of which only have a racial component in common. It also recommends checking List of ethnic groups to see the difference between ethnicity and race, yet "Black British", defined as anyone who is both British and black, is on that list. If "Black Canadian" and "Black British" are counted as ethnic groups, then I see no reason not to count "black African descent" as an ethnic group. 99.192.83.4 (talk) 01:51, 23 January 2013 (UTC) (=99.192.82.244)[reply]
Comment: I just took a quick look at the list and all but one person on the list is American or Canadian. So since African-American and African-Canadian are both recognized as ethnicities, not races (I still find this distinction baffling), the list could be renamed List of African-Canadian and African-American ice hockey players. To get Johnny Oduya, the only non-North American on the list, it could be called List of African-Canadian, African-American, or African-Swedish ice hockey players. 99.192.68.250 (talk) 05:05, 31 January 2013 (UTC) (=99.192.82.244)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, MBisanz ^talk 00:16, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. This is a tougher case than the lists for Middle Eastern and Latin American descent, especially since books have been written about black history in hockey. I rode the fence on this topic in the 2010 AFD, though I leaned keep then. Now, I lean delete because while the topic of black history in hockey is notable, I don't really see any great need for this list. I don't really buy 99.192's argument that the list is notable because Fewer than 75 black players have played in the NHL. That introduces an arbitrary standard. What is the cut-off for when so many black players have been in the league that a list is no longer desirable? 100? 250? 500? Personally, (and equally as arbitrarily), I think we've passed the point where there is any value in listing players by racial ancestry. Consequently, there is no intrinsic notability in this list. Reso lute 15:51, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
After further consideration, I notice that there is a page called List of NHL players, which includes all present and past players and there is a category called Category:Living people, with over 600,000 pages belonging to it, so it would seem irrelevant how few the number of black players is to it meeting a standard for inclusion. 99.192.68.250 (talk) 04:59, 31 January 2013 (UTC) (=99.192.82.244)[reply]
This seems to be a perfectly valid list, and the arguments to delete don't convince nme. Keep. Bearian (talk) 18:38, 4 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - after reviewing the comments above, as well as reviewing the pageviews for this page it seems to be a notable subject with traffic to support it. Tiggerjay (talk) 04:48, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, LlamaAl (talk) 14:19, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - Well sourced list. Carrite (talk) 01:18, 9 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.