The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Arguments referencing Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of bills sponsored by Barack Obama in the United States Senate are not really pertinent as that debate covers a different topic and is of a different nature. Shereth 21:41, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

List of amendments proposed by Barack Obama in the United States Senate[edit]

List of amendments proposed by Barack Obama in the United States Senate (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

Violates WP:NOTDIR and WP:IINFO. Also, creates quite a slippery slope. Currently, no similar articles exist for the 1900 other people who have served in the US Senate, the 8600 who have sat in the US House, members of the British Parliament, the German Bundestag, the French National Assembly, the Filipino Senate, or the Malawian National Assembly, nor should they. We are an encyclopedia, not a legislative journal. Biruitorul ^Talk 17:56, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Cross reference - There is a similar AfD at List of bills sponsored by Barack Obama in the United States Senate. -- Bebestbe (talk) 00:50, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete- anything of note can be covered in United States Senate career of Barack Obama or Political positions of Barack Obama. There's no need for a seperate article. Umbralcorax (talk) 18:18, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. There is no need for articles like this on every single legislator, and if we only leave Obama's, it's a POV problem. I also agree with the nominator that it violates a few elements of WP:NOT. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 18:22, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There is nothing in the NPOV policy that says you have to create 100 articles if you want to create one. The list that I created satisfies the NPOV policy, and that is all that I can be held to account for. I think that there is substantial public interest in knowing what legislation Obama has proposed, and the companion article list of bills sponsored by Barack Obama in the United States Senate was rated "top-importance" by WikiProject U.S. Congress. Mike Serfas (talk) 01:49, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete per above. I have previously nominated Legislation sponsored by Ron Paul, but deletion of this should warrant deletion of that article, provided that we create a new policy against these articles. - DiligentTerrier (and friends)19:07, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • To be fair, deleting this won't do any more to create a policy for deletion than the keep consensus at that AfD did to create a policy allowing them. JeremyMcCracken (talk) (contribs) 03:40, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep per my rationale at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of bills sponsored by Barack Obama in the United States Senate (with which I think this debate should be combined). The cited policies simply do not apply to this. What is being alleged here is systemic bias in coverage, and the remedy for that should not be to delete well-sourced, neutral information. Savidan 19:11, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, of course it's well-sourced and neutral, but does that imply it deserves to be an article? By that standard, as I've pointed out, we'd have tens of thousands of these, we'd have an article for most every news story ever published, and so forth. At some point, one encounters WP:EVERYTHING problems using that line of reasoning. Moreover, is this article in any way useful or interesting to a general audience? Biruitorul ^Talk 19:44, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete Per Umbralcorax Billhpike (talk) 19:21, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Not all laws are inherently notable just by existing, even though they;'re discussed in reliable sources. I see this as a collection of non-notable information interspersed randomly with notable facts, which should go in the parent article of Barack Obama. We do not store the complete CV of all notable people, so I see no reason why this list is notable in and of itself. HatlessAtless (talk) 20:01, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of bills sponsored by Barack Obama in the United States Senate. roc314 (talk) 21:32, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions. -- Fabrictramp | talk to me 22:47, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete, Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of facts. WillOakland (talk) 00:06, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - Meets Wikipedia:Lists. The information is a discriminate collection because it clearly is focused on a particular, quantifiable topic, so WP:IINFO is not violated. None of the five sections of WP:NOTDIR apply. Also, there is a significant difference between the third party opinions contained in the political positions of Barack Obama vs. an article (here a list) containing information that lets the reader come to their own conclusions about Obama's political positions. Legislation sponsored by Ron Paul (AFD1, AFD2), sponsorship of legislation by John Kerry, List of George W. Bush legislation and programs, and Vladimir Putin legislation and program have been around for a while without opening can of worms. "List of bills sponsored by Barack Obama in the United States Senate" can be modified using existing lists as guidelines as needed. Bebestbe (talk) 00:47, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is a list of amendments, not bills. Biruitorul ^Talk 02:40, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. I created this article because there is an unavoidable bias when we select only a few pieces of legislation introduced by a senator to mention: there is no source that can tell us which bills are important and which are not. This article is still at its earliest stage, but as in the list of bills sponsored by Barack Obama in the United States Senate, I intend to augment this article with third-party references and helpful Wikilinks. As I said in the concurrent deletion discussion for that article, I see no ground in policy for its deletion. I think it is entirely appropriate and within the scope of Wikipedia's resources to list several thousand bills and amendments submitted in the United States Senate each year, but for now I am focusing on a senator of exceptional interest to the readers. Mike Serfas (talk) 01:49, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I respectfully disagree. How is a list of bills and amendments - mere legislative proposals - within our scope as an encyclopedia? Why not, if we're going to list such trivial information (and, really, these are little more than parliamentary maneuvers, so I feel confident in calling them trivia), have, say, a List of rules published in the Federal Register on June 18, 2008, List of rules published in the Federal Register on June 19, 2008, List of rules published in the Federal Register on June 20, 2008...? Where do we draw the line?
  • And I strongly disagree with the contention that we need to know every bill sponsored in order to gauge the merits of a legislator. (Obama himself tells us what he thinks are his most important accomplishments at the bottom of this page.) See Daniel Webster: no List of amendments proposed by Daniel Webster in the United States Senate, but still a comprehensive enough view (for the general purpose an encyclopedia serves) of the man's legislative accomplishments. Biruitorul ^Talk 02:40, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I interpret the (second-to-last) paragraph to refer to his votes as a member of the Veterans' Affairs Committee and the Lugar-Obama bill more than his sponsored legislation per se. Mike Serfas (talk) 11:52, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete Violates WP:NOTDIR and WP:IINFO. We do not need lists of every amendment offered by every member of every national assembly in history. Edison (talk) 04:49, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per nom; lists like this are not consistent with the goals of Wikipedia. This stuff borders on electioneering. csloat (talk) 09:09, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep How can this not be important? This is a legislative history of one of the most important people alive today--Democratic candidate, possible next president, first black Democratic candidate for presidential office, possible first black president. Barack Obama turns up 60 million hits on Google. To compare covering him to covering the "Federal Register" is absurd. (Similarly, don't compare him to "every other legislator" or every news article ever published. The 'slippery slope' point has no meaning; almost all arguments are slippery slopes. If we accept it here, how much farther will the slippery slope argument go?) To say the article is electioneering, simply because the man is running for office, is absurd, unless the record is biased in some way--which it obviously isn't. The fact that you are running for office doesn't make an article about you biased. I think the author's account of his reasons for making the site is good; he should consider adding it as an intro to the article. And, yes, traditional encyclopedias do have lists. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Osloinsummertime (talk • contribs) 12:56, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • He's the Messiah! Surely we can't have enough of him here! Seriously, though: I'm all for covering the salient points of his career. But let's not get carried away either. His legislative achievements (rather thin gruel, by the way) can easily be summarized in a paragraph or two. We simply don't need an exhaustive list of jejune parliamentary maneuvers. And yes, there is a slippery slope: if we accept this for him, we must accept similar articles for every member of every national assembly in history, which would do deep damage. Biruitorul ^Talk 16:50, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • No, look: Barack Obama is not equivalent to every other assembly person in history. That is why the slippery slope argument is invalid. It asserts no distinction in a context where there is indeed a distinction. E.g., WP lists songs by Gwen Stefani. Is this a slippery slope because WP should then list all songs by all singers in history? Like this failure to distinguish famous and obscure singers, you are failing to distinguish between notable and less notable political actors.Osloinsummertime (talk) 09:46, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Even if we concede that point, we'd still have to take dozens of pages that are very long, dull and ultimately irrelevant lists of what are essentially parliamentary maneuvers and have very little to say about the politicians themselves. Our goal (as I see it) should not generally be to present raw data, but to shape that into a coherent, readable format. Winston Churchill sat in Parliament for over six decades; John Howard for over three; Tony Blair for 24 years - the length of Gerald Ford's House career; LBJ was a senator for a dozen years; and Robert Byrd has been there almost half a century. Should we compile similar lists for them too? If so, why? If not, why for Obama then? What purpose does any of this serve? Biruitorul ^Talk 16:02, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Make it an appendix I would agree with you, but I think this article serves at least as a great appendix to a main Obama article. Is there a way to indicate that it is an appendix? If not there ought to be.Osloinsummertime (talk) 21:38, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.