The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. (✉→BWilkins←✎) 22:26, 22 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

List of Jewish leaders in the Land of Israel[edit]

List of Jewish leaders in the Land of Israel (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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While this article was kept at AFD a few months ago, subsequent discussion, or lack thereof, has shown no interest in fixing the problems identified in the close, defining its scope, providing any sources, or otherwise justifying its existence. This is a completely synthesized list with a grossly obvious POV aim, that of fabricating some sort of proof that the land which now includes the state of Israel has always belonged to Jews.

See Talk:List of Jewish leaders in the Land of Israel, where I explain many of the reasons this list is unencyclopedic: among them, that the definition of "leader" is arbitrary (no attempt is made to distinguish between political and spiritual leaders even when such a distinction actually did exist; people with minimal power, like Mattathias, are included because they're Jewish icons, while party leaders are excluded), that users who want to keep the article as is have refused to provide sources after being asked repeatedly, and that there is no encyclopedic common link between, say, Jewish subordinate rulers under other empires and modern PMs. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 20:07, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep This article certainly has WP:RS and the POV can be cleaned up. - Presidentman talk ·

contribs (Talkback) 22:47, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• What are the reliable sources*, and how will you clean up the POV?

*That discuss the subject, obviously. Simply providing a reliable sources about Abraham or Maimonides or Golda Meir is unhelpful here, since each obviously has his or her own article. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 03:46, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This is a reliable source, and the POV can be fixed through editing. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 12:11, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You're going to have to do better than that. If I ask you for specific sources and you link me to a library, you're really just confirming that you cannot actually find any sources. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 16:48, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It includes a biographical dictionary. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 13:20, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, so I suppose that the "Top 50 American Jews," "Fashion Icons," and "Athletes" featured on the page are also Jewish leaders in the land of Israel? Fascinating! (Really though, this is pathetic.) –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 17:42, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• keep any issues are ones to be solved via editing, not deletion of the article. Gaijin42 (talk) 23:43, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • People said that last time and then reverted the efforts to improve the article. This comment is in bad faith. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 03:46, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I was not involved in the prior discussion, or the issues since then. WP:CLEANUP and we do not have a deadline. Gaijin42 (talk) 03:50, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Doesn't change the fact that it happened. It wasn't about passive failure to act, but about actively working to make sure the article was not improved. We don't have a deadline, but we do theoretically have content policies. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 03:59, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. ★☆ DUCKISPEANUTBUTTER☆★ 07:44, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Israel-related deletion discussions. ★☆ DUCKISPEANUTBUTTER☆★ 07:44, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Palestine-related deletion discussions. ★☆ DUCKISPEANUTBUTTER☆★ 07:44, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions. ★☆ DUCKISPEANUTBUTTER☆★ 07:44, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep.Nothing have changed from the last nomination.The article is properly sourced by WP:RS.If there are some POV problem they should be fixed.--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 09:04, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • The fact that nothing has changed from the last nomination is exactly the problem. Attempts to fix the POV/synth/scope problems after the last AFD were reverted by POV-motivated editors who evidently wished to keep the article as a propaganda piece. Saying "these problems can be fixed through regular editing, so we should keep the article" and then actively opposing efforts to fix the problems does not demonstrate good faith on the part of users who wish to keep the article. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 09:38, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per WP:SYNTH, WP:NOTDIRECTORY, and WP:COATRACK. Just by the name, I can see that this page could potentially contain an infinite number of individuals, which is certainly not in the spirit of WP:NOTDIRECTORY. The page doesn't even begin to mention all the Orthodox rabbis, Rebbes, and rosh yeshivas who have lived in Israel. I also agree with Roscelese that the page is really a coatrack for an underlying POV of proving that Israel belongs to the Jews. Yoninah (talk) 17:34, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. Definitely a useful list, and a helpful sub-article for Jewish history, references many reliable sources. If we keep articles such as the List of Jewish United States Supreme Court justices, I don't see any reason why we shouldn't keep a list of Jewish leaders of the Land of Israel. This article scope should include only the top leader, and not individual rabbis. Marokwitz (talk) 19:48, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Marokwitz: Considering that the Orthodox don't give credence to the Israeli chief rabbis, I'd say your reasoning is rather biased. Yoninah (talk) 20:00, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • I don't understand what bias you are accusing me of, but present-day Israeli chief rabbis, should not be on this list, in my opinion. They are not the "Leaders of Israel". Since the establishment of the State of Israel, the leaders of Israel have been secular. Marokwitz (talk) 20:33, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • But we already have a list of Israeli prime ministers. Your comment fails to explain away one of the essential problems with this article: its conflation of religious and political leaders, people with authority and people with a following, etc. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 21:13, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        • Due to political and religious changes, the Jewish people in the Land of Israel were ruled by different types of rulers in different eras - sometimes religious ("Nasi" = "President of the Sanhedrin" or high priests) or secular (Kings, or modern day Prime Ministers). If there are people with only "a following" and no actual authority, they do not belong in this article. The inclusion criteria could be phrased this way - the appointed leader of the central legal body of the Jewish community in the Land of Israel. Marokwitz (talk) 10:11, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
          • While your reasoning may stand up for the "community" in Israel 2000 years ago, the existence of a "central legal body" is disputable today. In Jerusalem alone, there are groups that do not acknowledge the state and abide by the rules of a different "leader". The page focus must be narrowed and revised to List of Jewish political leaders in the Land of Israel to avoid vagueness and all-inclusiveness. Yoninah (talk) 16:11, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
          • Even Marokwitz's reasoning would result in the gutting of the article. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 17:42, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
            • Yoninah, the opinion of fringe groups who do not recognize the government are irrelevant. Your argument that Israel in modern days does not have a "central legal body" is absurd. Israel is a stable state with a democratically elected leader. There are many fringe groups in the USA who don't recognize the authority of the Federal Government. So what? Does that mean that Barack Obama is not the American leader? Marokwitz (talk) 10:38, 17 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
              • I am not disagreeing with you. But when I come across a page with the name List of Jewish leaders in the Land of Israel, I am inclined to add all the Hasidic Rebbes and poskim that the Orthodox community considers its "leaders". Calling it "the Land of Israel" rather than "Israel" is adding a religious tone that leads me to this conclusion. The page name really needs to be revised for clarity. Yoninah (talk) 13:59, 17 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
                • Calling it "Israel" would imply the article is about the modern State of Israel. I recommend clarifying the inclusion criteria in the article lead. Marokwitz (talk) 09:10, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. My gut feeling says "delete", as it's a messy article with synthesis and OR issues. But it does not seem to match any of the fourteen reasons given in WP:DEL-REASON. I also have a problem with the nominator's use of terms like "grossly obvious POV aim" which looks a bit like a failure to AGF. I think it's generally a good idea to focus on the content of the article rather than trying to read the minds of the contributors. Still, I do tend to agree that it's a pretty awful article. Tigerboy1966  23:28, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

striking my Keep, the article may fall foul of WP:NOT. I am now officially neutral.  Tigerboy1966  23:35, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for reconsidering. Though, since you point to DEL-REASON, I must mention that my argument above is that this article falls foul of 6, 7, and 8 - since no one has been able to find sources on "Jewish leaders in the land of Israel," thus demonstrating that the topic is notable and non-synthetic, rather than simply asserting that a bunch of disparate groups have all been Jewish. (beyond the fact that DEL-REASON is not exhaustive - "Reasons for deletion include, but are not limited to, the following") –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 05:41, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep, again The article still provides a comprehensive list as described, broken down by era and still backed by appropriate reliable and verifiable sources. The previous AfD closed with an overwhelming consensus for retention and this just appears to be an attempt to take another bite at the apple. Alansohn (talk) 00:29, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • The previous AFD also closed with a statement that problems should be fixed through editing, but no one apparently cares about that part of the close. This so-called "comprehensive list" is a bunch of existing lists weakly glued together with the aim of proving a political point and, more importantly, without any actual sources. A lengthy reflist is useless if none of the refs actually support the topic, and you're not going to find a source that draws a lineage from, say, the geonim to the PMs. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 05:41, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep as in the past two AfDs. And as repeatedly explained that being Jewish means to belong to both a religion, Judaism, as well as to an ethnicity, see Jews, unlike other religions. Thus the people on this list are WP:N from either one or both perspectives. There are enough WP:RS to back this up. Not sure why the nominator is wielding this axe. Recorded Jewish history that stretches over 3,330 years, during that time there have been a variety of Jewish religious and secular, even anti-religious and in between leaders. The Jewish people, over the bulk of their history, have referred to their homeland as the Land of Israel ארץ ישראל , so not sure, but is that what is ticking the nominator off? since there are so many anti-Israel disputes always on the go on WP that it's hard to keep track of all the violations of WP:NOTBATTLEGROUND and WP:DONOTDISRUPT and hopefully this is not another excuse for another such WP:CONTENT and WP:POV dispute. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 13:44, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Okay, I've read over this comment twice but I don't see a keep rationale here. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 17:42, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete like my first rationale, combining biblical figures with modern figures and figuring out what they have in common with the vague terms of "leader" and "Land of Israel" is a violation of our original research policy. Secret ^account 06:25, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete; this is OR at best, and a political toy at worse. Any list whose inclusion criteria are so broad as to include all those people under the same heading is meaningless except as a political talking point. I would support its existence if there were reliable sources that put those people together in the same grouping; until that happens, this is synthesis of cherry picked individuals. — Coren ^(talk) 02:52, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Note. I have not been involved in editing this article until now. Today I started making some corrections, removals of incorrect data, addition of reliable sources, and other enhancements. The lead has been improved to accurately define the topic. I confirm that there are are still remaining problems with factual accuracy and sourcing of this article (For example, Ezra was not governor of Judea). But I still believe that the topic of the article is legitimate, and any remaining problems can be fixed through editing.Marokwitz (talk) 13:53, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete - This is a list masquerading as the usual Wikipedia pro-Israel POV really, and it is not surprising to see the usual names support retention. As others have noted, a coatracked, synth mess that does not belong here. Tarc (talk) 15:39, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep This is a perfectly acceptable list, and with 35 references, which is not a requirement for lists, it is better sourced than 3/4 of the articles on Wikipedia.--Geewhiz (talk) 15:45, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Would you care to respond to any part of the deletion rationale? –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 22:37, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep Jews have a long history with the approximate geographic area of Israel. I don't think it matters that religious, military, and political leaders are mixed together in this list. Religion to this day plays a powerful role in commanding people's allegiances. Military might and political leadership obviously constitute hallmarks of ethnic coherence. I don't think the reader can be assumed to be so unsophisticated as to fail to make allowances for leadership of different sorts to emerge in response to differing problems and threats besetting a group of people at different points in their extensive history, in relation to an approximate geographic area. Bus stop (talk) 20:55, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • If "leader" is so broadly defined, the list becomes meaningless. A scientist might be a leader in her field, or a musician in her genre. You are essentially proposing "List of notable Jews." –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 22:37, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Wouldn't that be a straw man argument? Are there any scientists or musicians who could fill that role? Are there any scientists or musicians on this list? It is conceivable that one could exist. But this is hypothetical for me because I can bring no person to mind who could fulfill that role. Bus stop (talk) 23:12, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. Reversing my earlier opinion after a lot more consideration. I think that the various sections would be fine as separate articles, and many of them already exist as such. Putting them together like this is WP:Synthesis and implies (to me) a continuity which isn't really supported by the text or the sources. It is an interesting piece and I do LIKE IT, so I'm not saying this lightly.  Tigerboy1966  23:32, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Tigerboy1966—is implication a reason for deleting an article? There can be gaps in Jewish leadership in the land of Israel too. This list documents reliably sourced notable examples of Jewish leadership in the land of Israel. Are there examples of Jewish individuals commanding the allegiances of large numbers of Jewish people in the land of Israel? Can we document them? Should an article be deleted because such documentation "implies…continuity"[1]? Bus stop (talk) 00:05, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No. It should be deleted because it's synthesis. Like I said, the separate lists are encyclopedic: putting them together in one big article is not. Tigerboy1966  08:43, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, but that's a mis-interpretation of the synthesis policy. We have many list and outline type articles which do not have a single source covering the entire list. See for example Outline of anarchism. Compiling a list of people matching a specific inclusion criteria (based on reliable sources for each entry, which verifies the inclusion) is not a forbidden type of synthesis. According to WP:SYNTH, what is forbidden is combining material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. This article does not reach or imply any such conclusions. Marokwitz (talk) 09:15, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Are there any gaps in leadership? Until one examines the list for discontinuities one cannot conclude that continuity has been established. Bus stop (talk) 13:46, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Is this a serious question? –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 23:49, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. Historically relevant and pertinent.--Zananiri (talk) 11:22, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Unfortunately, this addresses nothing anyone has said. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 23:49, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep This AfD is yet another attempt to suppress information on the Jewish connection with and continuity in the land of Israel, something which is well established history recognized by all serious scholars. Kuratowski's Ghost (talk) 18:21, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • WP:THEYDONTLIKEIT. "Censorship!!!1!!one!" is not an appropriate response to a clearly explained policy-motivated nomination. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 23:49, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete This is original research. No one has provided a reliable source that lists "leaders of the land of Israel". Even the name "land of Israel" is original research. It combines modern Israel with ancient realms that editors consider to be Isreal. We do not even known if Abraham, Isaac and Jacob even existed. We are combining people in Genesis (which includes Adam and Eve and Noah) with Benjamin Netanyahu. That would be like having a list of kings and queens of England from King Arthur, with his advisors Merlin the magician, Sir Galahad and Sir Lancelot, to Elizabeth II. TFD (talk) 08:50, 22 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • The article is about "Jewish leaders in the Land of Israel" , not "leaders of the land of Israel". If you think that mythological figures do not belong in this list, this can be corrected by editing, that is not a deletion reason. The vast majority of people on this list are real ones. Marokwitz (talk) 09:47, 22 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • TFD, my initial reaction to your English-monarchs example was "yeah, good example!" but then I realized that that's only a very small part of the problem. Obviously drawing a lineage from the patriarchs to the PMs is grossly POV, but in the English monarchs example, there is actually continuity from William to Elizabeth, continuity which is not present in this list - there is no inheritance of power or role from the King of Israel to the Chief Rabbi to the Prime Minister. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 21:09, 22 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong Keep: If there are issues about the article then tagging the page would be more constructive than deleting it -RoseL2P (talk) 13:58, 22 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Tags aren't permanent badges of shame - they're meant to prompt improvement of the article. I did better than tagging the article - I edited it in an effort to improve it - and was reverted by one of the users who had claimed in the first AFD that problems could be solved through talk and editing, so the bad-faith "it just needs editing" excuse falls flat. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 21:09, 22 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.