The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. – GorillaWarfare ^{talk • contribs} 00:17, 15 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Kommissar Hjuler (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

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Looks very much as if this is an autobiography of a non notable musician. Many of the refs are blogs. Fails WP:BIO. Paste _{Let’s have a chat.} 21:11, 7 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete Content appears to be from one editor, most likely the subject. Most of the references do not make sense. Ng.j (talk) 23:05, 7 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Still many grammar and WP:PROMO issues. Many of the links are offline and hard to verify, and I have not seen how the artist meets WP:Notability (music) specifically. Part of my problem with WP:PROMO is that the subject/author is trying so hard to have a page. If he is truly notable, there would have been more editors on the page, whether they are fans or not. Most artists have at least one or two rabid fans who will dig up every little thing and put it on their page. Nothing inherently notable on the page, just a bunch of little things some guy has done.Ng.j (talk) 15:24, 13 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Grammar and WP:PROMO (which specific parts of the article do you see as promotional?) are not grounds for deleting a page; they can be dealt with, for example by using the guidelines WP has for WP:COI (as I have pointed out on numerous occasions, this issue will not go away if the decision is "keep", but he will have to live with sticking to the COI guidelines. He is not "trying so hard to have a page", at least not any more after I explained the notability guidelines (are you basing this judgement on his asking for help on "saving the page"?). He is certainly trying his best to address all the specific concerns, and now you're using that against him? Note that he has mostly restored the page to perhaps a state closer to what it was in before he tried his (unfortunately for him, pretty inept; he is still not using some of the basics. But again, that is not a reason to delete the article) hand in it (or if you consider the actual version of that page to be better than what is currently there, we can always revert it to that state). "There would have been more editors" is not a criterion according to the notability guidelines. Or if it is, please point me to it. It may not be immediately obvious from the article, but his work has been featured at the Institute of Contemporary Art and the Museum of Contemporary Art, Chicago. I'm not sure if that isn't grounds for notability as an artist alone (I know practically nothing about art, do you?). And I am pretty sure he just has to demonstrate notability in one of the many areas he works in; I'm sure his police work also fails to demonstrate notability. Perhaps he needs to improve the lead to more clearly show this, but please WP:AGF; he has shown no reason not to. I think we can all agree that he is neither Picasso nor Mick Jagger, but neither is he an obscure dilletant. -- Nczempin (talk) 16:08, 13 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment I am trying to help the subject of the article to get involved in the discussion. I have pointed out WP:COI (which is not directly relevant to this discussion, but must be addressed afterwards if the decision is "keep"), but he is very new to WP. Please take User_talk:141.91.129.7#Kommissar_Hjuler_deleted.3F into account if he doesn't learn to discuss the matter here. I'm hoping I can teach him. I have no interest in the matter itself other than helping a new user. -- Nczempin (talk) 10:16, 8 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

NEW COMMENT: Kommissar Hjuler & Mama Baer are contemporary artists, working in several fields (music, painting, mixed media), well known in the European "middle class art scene" - there is no need to delete the side! Brca 17:19, 8 April 2011

• Comment I can understand NG.j. 's decision, for sure now, thanks for the help by Nczempin to safe the article.Kommissar Hjuler (talk) 09:41, 9 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. I am now convinced that the subject is definitely notable for an article. Some of the references are hard to deal with, but they will be dealt with. The article has improved considerably AFAICS, the WP:COI author (he didn't start the article, only modified it, probably a bit too much) is very open to doing everything to comply with WP policies and guidelines, but he is still very inexperienced. Note that I did not decide to "save" the article, I only decided to help a newbie user with the harsh wind that sometimes blows across the WP waters. A lot of issues still remain; in the medium term, it is probably best if User:Kommissar Hjuler keeps his involvement with the article to a minimum. -- Nczempin (talk) 13:06, 13 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I see the reason now, thanks for help, as mentioned, I am new hereI am Komiissar Hjuler, well I looked at the notability list for musicians: My comments to the points 1. quite a lot of albums, listet at Discogs or reviewed at magazines, most famous "fan" of our music is Thurston Moore of Sonic Youth, who recommended us in an interview he gave for Arthur Magazine, sometime ago he wrote a track for us called Schwarze Police, this tracks was released as split release at Goaty, Kommissar Hjuler und Frau/Thurston Moore Schwarze Polizei, I refer to this and to other releases on the site here. 2., 3. Our music is far from any chart music, but THE WIRE (magazine) voted a CD by us, asylum lunaticum (Intransitive Rec., USA), to belong to the best 15 albums of the year 2009 in experiment/outsider music, I refer to this as well. 4. for some albums we made coverage tours, for the last one on Ulramarine we have a tour with seven concerts at UK, starting at Cafe Oto, London, 15th of April, I refer to all this as well. 5 We released at independent labels, but some excist for years and have a wide amount of releases. 6. we played with several groups and artists together, some have their account here, like Eugene Chadbourne. 7. www.kunstaspekte.de expects us to create a new form of happening, I refer to this as well 8. this will never happen, I woin a small price in art and got mentioned in a book,refered to it as well, 9. no 10. radios play us, a rdaio at Wisconsin once played only our music for a complete weekend, my wife is at womens radio, and WFMU has played a lot of our music and we are soon present at a CD by them 11, 12. we hope, this will come one day, the WDR III (televion) was at our place for an interview in 2006, but they did not send it at TV, they sent a radio special instead at Radio1, Nordrheinwestfalen, Offener Kanal made a special on us, sent here at local TV, also at a TV special for local TV at Kiel, sent all over Schleswig-Holstein, this special we also show at our website.

Beside this I work as artist with several exhibition, to be with an article at music file is reasonable to me, but the article was originally written by someone else, I simply added some facts, well, ...

And I still do not know who decides whether or not an article gets deleted, thanks for the help so far!

KHJ 13:25 April 8th 20112

Kommissar Hjuler (talk)

First Time I discuss here. As mentioned, I am Kommissar Hjuler, and therfor astonished about the idea, that information here is a fake. I am not sure, who decides that an articles is removed. I tried to find enough references outside my website or private website. I did not know that blogs are not allowed, but some sides today only excist as blogs, our mostly spred interview was at artlout:com issue 04:08, this intervied idi only excists at the www., was never printed, this is an online magazine, but I was told, the articles was red more than a millin times by the magazine. So any blogs could be good references today, I thought. There is a lot of printed magazines that refer to us, mama baer and Kommissar Hjuler (or Kommissar Hjuler und Frau).

We can be regarded as musicians and as artists,we combine everything, music is art and art can be music. We started as musicians only in 1999, now have about 20 LP/CD contracts, gave lot of concert, but since 2005/6 even more work as artists, some exhibitions, and performances are often regarded as art instead of music, allthoug some were at music only festivals.

I am not used to the rules of writing articles, I am sorry for this, I will ot cause any trouble to any Users her.

At the moement I need some help, to get the artcile here safed from any deletion.

KHJ 13:29 April 8th 20112

Kommissar Hjuler (talk)

I hope Kommissar Hjuler as musician and as artist fits to the notability for music-related topics regulation. I gave a statement on these points two comments before, but possibly I am non-notable, then I have to live with this, haha.

KHJ 14:30 April 8th 20112 Kommissar Hjuler (talk) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.122.41.46 (talk) 12:31, 8 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

87.122.41.46 (talk) 15:04, 8 April 2011 (UTC) Kommissar Hjuler (talk)[reply]

So Kommissar HGjuler is User 87.122.41.46 ? I am learning every day a bid more. Anyway, I did not want to violate any rules, just discuss, what you mean on the article.

87.122.41.46 (talk) 15:08, 8 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment This article is the best example I could ever dream up to explain why subjects should not write their articles about themselves. The conflict of interest issues are so tightly woven through every paragraph that the article itself is not salvageable. Literally every line would have to be rewritten. The subject himself may very well be notable (my gut says he is) but the citations are so botched, so flooded with non-reliable sources, it makes the task impossible to perform. This really needs to be userfied and rewritten by someone INDEPENDENT of the subject, but I'm refraining from !voting because this autobiographical subject may be notable but a dreadful mess to verify. Dennis Brown (talk) 15:14, 8 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Userfying sounds like a good idea. I don't see a problem in putting it in User: Kommissar Hjuler userspace; I volunteer to guide him to learn more about WP, how to avoid COI etc. First thing he should do is actually log in regularly before posting, otherwise my willingness to help will diminish to almost zero. -- Nczempin (talk) 15:23, 8 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment Speaking as someone who has spent a great deal of my life as a performing musician, I feel I can speak with some authority when I say that it is very, very difficult for any artist to be objective about themselves. While a large ego is virtually required to be an artist, it isn't so great for writing autobiographies. I don't envy you :) Dennis Brown (talk) 15:31, 8 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      • Comment: Well, it may very well turn out that the best way to proceed in the medium term is for him to stay off the article, but for now he needs some basic skills to participate in the discussion. I am trying not to get involved on either side. We could also revert the recent changes he made (he said that someone else created the article and he only recently started editing himself, which seems to be backed up by a cursory glance at the history). -- Nczempin (talk) 15:36, 8 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The "big ego" makes the artist, haha, I guess I will shorten the complete article to some basic info, not sure, what to do, possibly the first article by someone else was enough info,

Kommissar Hjuler (talk) 15:50, 8 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Visual arts-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 16:55, 8 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 16:56, 8 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment Hello Gene93k! I took a look at those artists and those musicians at both lists and have to say, that nearly all are possibly well-known at their areas, but I could not find references for them to be known worldwide. I calm down a bid, a bid only, when I see the "other nominees" at the lists, for we worked worldwide in art and in music, in both categories, on nearly all continents, I hope I will overcome the problem with the references, but I get good help here. And on this article a good discussion is in progress, Users discuss, I cannot really see this for most of the other articles at both categories. I am astonished that only that few artists and musicians are at the lists. One is easily able to create a Users account as artist or musician, one can as easily write articles. A lot of people write their own articles, I am supposed. But mainly it is not recognized. In a way stupid for me to write as User KOmmissar Hjuler at an article called Kommissar Hjuler. If we were able to load up any music by us at an artcile, the article would have been deleted by all users! I was kidding, I am astonish how obvious the Users work here. Kommissar Hjuler (talk) 22:38, 13 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I removed some parts, in a way it was too much info on that side — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kommissar Hjuler (talk • contribs) 18:18, 8 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

As Brca mentioned, we are only middle class artists, no need to have that much info here on us, haha! Thank a lot agian for all support. I will do my best to keep all rules better in mind for the future. Kommissar Hjuler (talk) 18:27, 8 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The amount of information per se is not the issue, as long as it is supported by reliable sources, and the other guidelines, such as WP:BIO, WP:AUTOBIO, WP:BLP, WP:COI (and a whole load of other WP guidelines, sorry if that seems overwhelming) are observed. Some of the most important general ones are WP:AGF and WP:DONTBITE -- Nczempin (talk) 18:55, 8 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Userfy: I have just seen the article for the first time, and it needs a lot of work (just from seeing the lead and Table of Contents). Again, I volunteer to help get the article in minimum shape to demonstrate notability (as far as that's possible), avoid COI and then perhaps put it through WP:AfC scrutiny. -- Nczempin (talk) 21:16, 8 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I don't know what a userfy process would entail, but I would suggest leaving a stub with the most basic info, then work with User:Kommissar Hjuler on WP:COI, and then help him with a page that would pass WP:AfC muster (though not necessarily actually going through the process). Or we could do all the above except the stub, as long as it's clear that the page can be reinstated once it meets minimum requirements. -- Nczempin (talk) 07:28, 9 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Userfy per above reasoning (I hadn't !voted previously...). This can be made into an article, just not with the current information and needs a complete rewrite, which Nczempin has graciously offered to do. Subject appears to be notable, and will make an interesting and valid article when complete, after a 100% rewrite on this BLP. Dennis Brown (talk) 23:10, 8 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep due to the complete overhaul that now makes it clear that a keep would be appropriate. Dennis Brown (talk) 13:26, 13 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Some changes I now do.

The references at the file short films mainly only are external links, I think it is more reliable simply to remove them, a friend of mine here only has two references and is reliable for the complete article.Kommissar Hjuler (talk) 09:37, 9 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I hope this is a version one can keep here, please read this text and tell me, what I can do better. Kommissar Hjuler (talk) 13:23, 9 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The article now is much shorter as at the point I started my account at Wikipedia and now hopefully fits the rules. Kommissar Hjuler (talk) 17:39, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Mama Baer is supposed that 5 photos are too many photos, what do you mean, shall I dele some photos? need the advice of those older Users.Kommissar Hjuler (talk) 08:49, 12 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The number of photos has no bearing on the deletion discussion; it's better to discuss that question at the article's discussion page. The most important part is that WP:NOTABILITY needs to be clearly demonstrated. Other issues such as WP:COI and how to improve the article in general are secondary concerns until this deletion discussion is over. In fact, it may be a good idea to reduce your own comments on this deletion discussion page to only those that are concerned with the main objection by the submitter. -- Nczempin (talk) 09:01, 12 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

just was told by Keith A. Buchholz, that I am mentioned on the poster of fluxfest chicago, changed the reference to the fluxfest Chicago 2011, Kommissar Hjuler (talk) 17:51, 12 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment Having followed the progression of this article and this AfD I agree with the comments of Dennis Brown. I would also agree with Nczempin that it may be best if the subject stays off the article! Therefore AfD withdrawn.Paste _{Let’s have a chat.} 15:50, 13 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep I know that I am in contract with the terms of close connection, and so my KEEP cannot be regarded as a neutral point of view, but I get a lot of help from Users here, and was just told, that I am allowed to state this KEEP, so I state it. The conflict here between neutrality and notability leads to the following problem to me: If I would shorten the article to a basic info with really good references for the information, I will not appear as noteable, and if I put that information on it, that makes me notable, I am in trouble to make all the references.

At the talk side I gave statements to all points of the notability regularies by wikipedia, comments on each point, and Users reading this, might expect me to be notable. To bring all references can be hard, and for some events I need help to do all references. How can I bring references to the event at Mary Bauermeister's Place? Therefor I need your advice. We have been playing there, a video exists at YouTube, Mary Bauermeister gave a statement on our concert, she said in an interview (video) that she can not go conform with the sexuality we presented at the performance. We had a lot of discussion with her on this point of view. For artists/performance artists, her place is a holy room to perform at, an invitation is something special, for she only asks relevant artists to play there, every first Sunday each month, in the room with her husband's piano, the first Karlheinz Stockhausen piano. These concerts are even more private and personal events, the press could not focus on each concert every month again, I could present a photo at my site from event, if this works, because all information you find at the www is from interviews we gave, if anyone refers to this event, he refers to what I have told in an interview or did write at my website. Here I cannot refer to a video at youtube, this is a problem. There has not been a neutral viewer of our concert at he place, but there never was a neutral viewer for all her concerts. Noone asks, whether or not Nam June Paik has really played there, he made his first European concert at her rooms, but there was nearly no audience, we were told, the circumstances were by far the same, lateron this concert by him has become a fact to all who think about it, simply by the fact, that a lot of magazines wrote about it, for Mary and he stated, he has played there. Mary stated, that we have played there, and some magazines gave back my interbiew, that we have played there, but this is simply what I told them. Hope you see the problem. For other concerts always a program or a poster or catalogue exists, I can refer to these printed matters.

When I started editing this article, it was not that neutral tone it has now, not sure, who wrote it, but noone focussed on it and expected the article to be wrong information, although there were only few references. Concerning the original article here, only for the info this article gave on me, I was not relevant to wikipedia to become mentioned. But I always here that Mama Baer and I have an outut of music and art, that no other artists have. Every month we sign new LP/CD/MC contracs, have new perspectives in art, collaborate with new artists, we are expanding really fast. The original article did not give back this info, it was not mentioned, that we have become involved into NO!art, whic is a big step for us, we gave a lot of interviews, since we have become memberschip, for instanc ethe one by Kunstaspekte, and Kunstaspekte is the most relevant platform for art at Germany !It really is. To be named as artist at their website and to be reviewed is a reference to the artists, if galleries think about an exhibtion.

Anyone of you, who has to decide here, is free to give me his/her advice before giving a statement, the last days I tried my best to bring this article in a neutral view, that keeps me interesting enough for an article. And I will do it the way, as he/she states, all of you are more involved into wikipedia as I am. Kommissar Hjuler (talk) 16:38, 13 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have to thank Nczempin for the time he offered and still offers. Kommissar Hjuler (talk) 16:38, 13 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

And I would ask any Users here, isn't Keith A. Buchholz a nioteable person for wikipedia, I saw a long artícle on Cecil Touchon, with whom I now work together by mail, also just have been invited to exhibit at the "museum" he runs in 2012, but to me Keith is as noteable. I am long time meber at OPEN FLUXUS, and keith is one of the most active artists in Fluxus of this time, involved in that lot of projects, crazy, that vthere is no article at him. It is easier to bring references for the existence of Cecil due to the Fluxus books, but if one sees blog activity, Keith is as notable, possibly someione here is interested to write about him. Kommissar Hjuler (talk) 16:38, 13 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Easy now; relax. -- Nczempin (talk) 16:41, 13 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

My COI with the artcile on Kommissar Hjuler and on Mama Baer, my wife, is obvious to everyone, due to my Users name. I was not used to the rules here, but this was my fault, when starting an edit. The article here on my person was not showing all current information, I do not now the edititor, I found out about edit function, then added latest news on me. Only true news, but the references were not good, I learned about this as well in the last days. Wikipedia shall not be a promotional site for my person, it shall simply reflect the info on us, that is true. I now try to see from a distance, how to write down all info fitting to the rules. Everyone here shall test, if I am objective enough in my formulations, if not, I ask for your help instead of an deletion proecedere first. And I will listen to you and take any help I can get. The info here on us is true, so any suggestions by Users are helpful to me, to show in a distant view, that I am telling the truth.

I am supposed that a lot of artists are in COI with articles, for the system allowes anyone here to become a User and to work with texts. My User name is evident for the conflict, and I hope this shows you, that I was acting in good will for all changes, otherwise I would have called me different as a User. The system to me seemingly workt the way, that Users create artciles on subjects they new and like, so any user in a way has a COI, to me her it is evident.

Please discuss all points here that are important for me, to see, how I can handle best the COI, to get aware of it. I cannot get ware of it, but I possibly can show to you, that I can be objective. I am a police officer and I am used to being objective, especially when I am at the focus of people.

As mentioned at the talk about the notability, if I simply take away certain points here, I could become not relevant enought, not notable enough for an article here. I am supposed tha en.wikipedia is the correct platform for me and mama baer to be mentioned, we work all over the world at same time, we worked on all continents so far, we have contacts from several contries, not only from Germany, I would suggest that we work more outside Germany as inside germany. The one who once started the article on me here at en.wiki must have had this in mind.

So if you will comment here, please concider, that the information stated is correct, but that the terms of statement or refernce might be chosen in a wrong way.

I will do my best to be as neutral as possible.

One important thing: Possibly on is able to discuss the COI on the articles of Kommissar Hjuler and of Mama BAer at ONE TALK Side, not sure, if an Administrator can manage this. We are known in the same way, we often handle as one person, some performances we called ZWEI EINEPERSON or EINE ZWEIPERSON; because we always work together, also for our solo projects, we share all profiles like facebook, myspace, ..., we are really conected like a system.

Mama Baer's English is too bad, as if she could write her, so any comments are by me.

So, the facts are true, the way of refering to them might be completely wrong by me, and I need your help, to make best references.

Kommissar Hjuler (talk) 21:05, 13 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it certainly should not' be discussed here (in the deletion discussion. The best place to discuss your conflict of interest is your user page (where you should declare your COI) and your user talk page where people can discuss with you. In addition, when you want to make edits that go beyond simple obvious ones (like they are described in the WP:COI guidelines, you should request edits on the talk pages of the articles, such as Talk: Kommissar Hjuler and Talk: Mama Baer. -- Nczempin (talk) 06:44, 14 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure, if the refernce No. 12 is a good reference, the artlout:com is an online magazine that provides monthly issues for download, at their website they state that issues were read by a million people, but how can one be sure about such terms stated. We have been one of the four title stories at issue 04:08, a long interview was presented, refering on some exhibitions, but not all exhibition were mentioned, and we had a lot after april 2008, but the exhitions up to that date were mentioned at the magazine. At europe the online magazine artlout is a recommended magazine, mainly read by art students, represented at german platforms of students, like www.studivz.com, or also at facebook. But not the good stand of www.kunstaspekte.de. I simply do not know, how to make a good reference on the fact, that all the exhibition we have been involved are not a fake. Any artists have these problems. Is it okay to take away the artlout:com reference and simply to state, that programs or catalogues exist to the exhibitions and that we are mentioned at the wesbites of the galleries. We here have a big biox with al the printed matter, but if I shall refer to any printed matter, it would be along list of references, and I see not lists at other artists sites, Often there is stated, he gave a lot of concerts ... or he exhibition at lot of galleries ... I am also in fear to put too much detailed info at the article, for this might cause a COI conflict again, it could be seen as promotion.

I also refer to the textcard No. 16, testcard at Ventil-Verlag is a recommended magazine for the German-speaking area, presenting articles by well-known authors, there is an article on the Ventil Verlag at de-wikipedia, also on Martin Büsser who run the Ventil Verlag. testcard it the only publication of the Ventil Verlag. Possibly the article on Mama BAer and Kommissar Hjuler this is not good enough as reference for en.wikipedia. As mentioned, I am now trying to find references good enough to show, that the article handles with facts.

So any good advice is welcome! Kommissar Hjuler (talk) 09:55, 14 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.