The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus; merge with Scala (programming language) possible. This was not a great discussion, but vox populii est vox dei. Shii (tock) 15:59, 10 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Kojo (programming language)

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Kojo (programming language) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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Lacks reliable independent secondary sources to establish notability as required by WP:GNG. Sources offered are all primary. I was unable to find any suitable sources by Googling. It's possible the subject may become notable in the future, but Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. Msnicki (talk) 13:43, 18 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Computing-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 13:59, 18 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Mediran (t • c) 00:37, 25 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Merge/Delete - As far as i can tell this programming language is an offshoot from Scala (programming language). Because it is obviously not yet noteable enough to have its own page it could be merged with the page for Scala which seems to be more built up and is not being disputed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eatmark (talk • contribs) 03:00, 25 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oluies (talk) 19:32, 6 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

At AfD, the only issue we consider is WP:NOTABILITY, which has a more technical meaning here than in ordinary conversation. Here, it's not enough that something seems noteworthy but that multiple WP:RELIABLE WP:INDEPENDENT WP:SECONDARY sources have actually taken note. Each of those words is significant. Different editors will interpret the guidelines differently but my rule of thumb to establish notability is on the order of a couple 1000-word articles in established publications by authors having no connection to the subject. Often, the difference between seems notable and sources have taken note is just a matter of time. If the sources aren't there now because the subject is quite new, perhaps they will be in a month or so, in which case the article can be reinstated without prejudice. That's exactly what happened recently with Julia. Another option if the outcome is delete is to request WP:Userfication so you or others can continue to work on the article in user space while you search for new sources. Msnicki (talk) 18:21, 25 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, czar · · 03:29, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The ReadWrite article is WP:PRIMARY and not helpful in establishing notability. From that article: "this post was co-authored by Lalit Pant, the creator of Kojo ." Msnicki (talk) 14:28, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
And Einstein authored a lot of articles we quote all the time. At issue is not the author, but the source. Maury Markowitz (talk) 01:29, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It doesn't work that way. (a) Einstein did not write this and (b) even if he had, if he was writing about his own work, it would not count toward establishing notability. See my comments above. You cannot make your own work notable by writing about it yourself, no matter how wonderfully you write. The essence of notability is that others must take note. Please read the guidelines re: WP:Notability and WP:PRIMARY sources. Msnicki (talk) 05:22, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You have inverted my argument. The question is solely whether or not the source meets the requirements for GNG. If it does, then the author of the work is of little consequence. My example was to illustrate that it is the source we consider when citing, not the author. I'd be perfectly happy to entertain arguments on SELF if you feed RW is a vanity press, or that you don't consider RW to meet the needs of GNG. But just because the author of an article is involved doesn't address its NOTE. Maury Markowitz (talk) 12:35, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The point is that it doesn't satisfy WP:GNG. At AfD, no one cares about your "argument" if the source consists of the author writing about his own work. Under the guidelines, to establish notability takes sources that are independent of the subject. Since Pant was a co-author of the article, it does not contribute toward satisfying WP:GNG. This is black letter and the reason you need to stop arguing and read the guidelines first. Msnicki (talk) 13:50, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
So, then, you are saying that ReadWrite is not suitable for GNG. Is that correct? Maury Markowitz (talk) 14:25, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm saying this article in RW isn't suitable for establishing notability of Kojo. From WP:GNG, ""Sources", for notability purposes, should be secondary sources". This article isn't WP:SECONDARY, it's primary. It could have been a fully acceptable source if only Pant hadn't been a co-author. The publication appears reliable RW appears to be a reliable publication and the article is certainly long enough and it's undeniably about Kojo (i.e., it's not just a mention in an article about something else.) The sole problem (but this is all that matters at AfD) is that it is WP:PRIMARY by virtue of the fact that it consists of Pant writing about his own work. That makes it unhelpful in establishing notability. Msnicki (talk) 14:34, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Andy, is this necessary or helpful? Or is this non-guidelines-based strawman argument just one more gratuitously nasty and completely ad hominem example of why no one likes you or cares what you think? Msnicki (talk) 19:18, 8 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
  1. ^ Regnell, Björn (2013-04-29). "Lär dig programmera!". Retrieved 2013-05-06.
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